Eternal security or conditional security?

[Jethro Bodine]

Vs 2 speaks of sanctification salvation and then Paul goes onto preach about glorification salvation for the rest of the chapter.

Since it does not say that in the verse, where does this interpretation come from? Obviously, 'sanctification salvation' has to be invented by OSAS to make the passage 'not really' mean what it so plainly says. It's been interesting to see OSAS grasp for another creative interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB when the interpretations before it have been proven false. This makes about the fifth attempt to make the passage not mean that the condition to be presently saved is that you are presently believing in the word.

The "if" in verse 2 would pertain to me or any believer who didn't "hold fast" to doctrine. If I didn't study TRUE doctrine.........I would eventually doubt His salvation, my eternal life or think that I could possibly lose salvation.......I would not experience sanctification salvation if I didn't "hold fast" doctrine.

The 'if' (the one that was rationalized to 'not really' mean 'if' in a previous defense of the passage, but now does mean 'if' in this defense) is referring to the gospel message that Paul first preached to the Corinthians. It's good that at least now OSAS acknowledges that Paul really is saying that salvation is conditional on 'if' you hold fast the word preached. It's just now the definition of 'salvation' has been changed to preserve a OSAS doctrine. I see this over and over and over again in these kinds of discussions.

I am justified. Now I can experience salvation in this life and my day to day routine IF I "hold fast" doctrine. IF I do not, I will doubt salvation,I will think salvation can be lost, I will not "experience" salvation and the TRUE christian life while I am alive. I will have to wait until glorification salvation to "experience" it....

I don't think OSAS can speak for non-OSAS. I'm non-OSAS and I'm treading more and more ground of the fourth type of soil that Jesus refers to in the Parable of the Sower:

"15“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance." (Luke 8:15 NASB)

OSAS is insisting that can't happen if you think you can lose your salvation because that would represent not holding the word fast. I'm holding fast the word and producing it's fruit, yet I'm non-OSAS. So, the suggestion that to be non-OSAS means you are not holding fast the word and, therefore, can't and won't produce it's fruit is just plain false.

And here again we have a doctrinal stance that is actually guilty of what it accuses it's opponents of. OSAS insists you do not have to obey God to be saved, and that to not believe that will make you unfruitful, yet these OSAS camps is where we find believers living in rampant, willful, rationalized sin because they don't think it matters toward their salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And to throw a wrench in that...........while religion is out looking for the "sinner" who really isn't saved.

But, of course, it's okay to be out looking for the 'self-righteous' person who really isn't saved? Double standards may well be the second in the list of things that characterize false doctrines (ignoring a piece of scripture that makes a particular doctrine impossible to be true is the first).

Non-OSAS is about examining YOURSELF, so you can be sure you are indeed saved and prepared to face God at the Judgment.

"5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!" (2 Corinthians 13: NASB)

The Bible instructs us in several places to examine our fruit so we can be sure we are saved. OSAS says you do not need to do that because fruit has nothing to do with whether you are really saved or not, serving no purpose as an indicator of whether you have faith in Chris, or not.

 

[Cygnus]

That's right. Paul, the same Paul who wrote the words from Romans 2, teaches us that we are not saved by works.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

We are saved by grace, through faith.

No one can work to earn salvation.

However a person must obey the Gospel, in order to be saved.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved...But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:8-13,16-17


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

What of those who have faith, then depart from the faith, and turn to other gods?

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1-2

IMO, the OSAS Hyper-grace doctrine that teaches a person can be saved by faith, then depart from the very faith, through which they were saved, and serve another god, and even take the mark of the beast, and still somehow be saved, is a doctrine of demons, that entices a person into a false sense of eternal security.


JLB

Departing from the faith doesn't mean you give up your salvation.

I know of several people who have departed from the faith...only to return.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you think your supposed to add to scripture? Which you speak of is not in the bible.

Secondly....perhaps you ought to click on hold fast and see what it really means.

Perhaps you would also like to explain what "keep in memory" means....as many of the bible translators use that phrase in place of "hold fast".

Surely you are going to take this same argument up with gr8grace3 since he agrees that the passage is indeed saying it is on condition of holding fast the word that you are presently saved. (It's just that he says OSAS defines 'salvation' in such a way that preserves a OSAS understanding of the passage).

So, sort out what 'hold fast' and 'keep in memory' really means in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB with him, since he agrees with me about it, and I'll watch and take notes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Departing from the faith doesn't mean you give up your salvation.

I know of several people who have departed from the faith...only to return.

God is long suffering. And he surely is not legalistic so as to impose the just sentence for rejecting salvation at the very first rejection.
So, I'm convinced, because of that, he gives lots of space for the former believer, now Christ rejector, to come back to their senses. But if they persist in their unbelief he will indeed sentence the former believer sanctified by the blood of Christ to the fate of the enemies of God (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB).

 

[Cygnus]

Jesus plainly teaches us different.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,6

Just show us the scripture where burning in the fire of hell is somehow being saved.

The fire = Hell.

A fire can mean just about anything.

He says The Fire, not a fire.

Here are some other examples that refer specifically to the fire.

Here Jesus specifically links The fire with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


I suppose "a fire" could be just about anything a person could dream up.

The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


JLB

You do understand that all of a christians works will be judged via fire?
I thought we've been over this already.
1 Cor 3:14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, that is very true in the minds of those who teach and believe as you do. But I'm not under the influence of your teachings and beliefs.

It's not only in my mind, but in my very soul that I believe the way I do as I study the deeper things of Gods word. I am glad that you are not influenced by what I present as I would never want any one to believe me, but to believe what God has already spoken and come up with their own conclusions. Many are influenced by their Pastors and believe every word that comes out of their mouth as I use to believe everything they taught on pretrib. It is only when I started studying Revelations and back tracking through the OT and NT mixed with history doing this apart from all that I have ever been taught that I find many of their teachings are through what they themselves have been taught through traditional teachings of those before them.

I read Matthew 24 as being an outline of those things to come in Revelations as the disciples asked Jesus three questions, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"Jesus answered them saying, "Take heed that no man deceive you." then Jesus proceeded to tell them what must come first before He returns.This is when I started digging deeper many years ago as many Pastors I use to listen to use Rev 4 to show we are caught up to Jesus before Gods wrath begins, but no where does it say any such thing.

 

[Cygnus]

Surely you are going to take this same argument up with gr8grace3 since he agrees that the passage is indeed saying it is on condition of holding fast the word in order that you are presently saved. (It's just that he is now redefining 'salvation' to preserve a OSAS slant on the passage).

So, sort out what 'hold fast' and 'keep in memory' really means in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB with him and I'll watch and take notes.

I've said before and still maintain..Paul was presenting integrety of the scripture...gospel...If you think you are saved and can reject portions of the gospel...your faith is in vain. HOLD on to the truth Paul presents.

 

[Cygnus]

God is long suffering. And he surely is not legalistic so as to impose the just sentence for rejecting salvation at the very first rejection.
So, I'm convinced, because of that, he gives lots of space for the former believer, now Christ rejector, to come back to their senses. But if they persist in their unbelief he will indeed sentence the former believer sanctified by the blood of Christ to the fate of the enemies of God (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB).

That's a belief...not biblical, yet a belief. Have fun with it.

 

[Cygnus]

I read Matthew 24 as being an outline of those things to come in Revelations as the disciples asked Jesus three questions, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"Jesus answered them saying, "Take heed that no man deceive you." then Jesus proceeded to tell them what must come first before He returns.This is when I started digging deeper many years ago as many Pastors I use to listen to use Rev 4 to show we are caught up to Jesus before Gods wrath begins, but no where does it say any such thing.

It is my belief that the bible teaches Jesus returns twice. Once in the air...on the clouds...the way He left and a second time when Jesus riding a horse gets off and steps foot on the Mt. of Olives.

What return in your above post are you referring to?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Wow. So one gets eternal life by being good. I guess Jesus was wrong to demand that people believe in Him in order to HAVE eternal life. Jn 5:24

No.
One inherits eternal life by having faith, as evidenced by a life of obedient work:

"9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6: NASB)

But OSAS says you still inherit the promises without faith and patience (the perseverance of faith) and the work it produces. Which essentially makes the author of Hebrews exhortation completely and utterly meaningless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's a belief...not biblical, yet a belief. Have fun with it.

Not Biblical?

" 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9 NASB)

I don't know if this is true of you or not, but perhaps the number one reason false doctrine is flourishing and devouring the church at this present time in history is because the church simply does not read and know the Bible. And what reading they do is not the Bible, but books about the Bible, where authors have not rightly divided the word of God and have invented false doctrines that in the end rationalize sin.

 

[Cygnus]

No.
One inherits eternal life by having faith, as evidenced by a life of obedient work:

"9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6: NASB)

But OSAS says you still inherit the promises without faith and patience (the perseverance of faith) and the work it produces. Which essentially makes the author of Hebrews exhortation completely and utterly meaningless.

When will you explain away the snatching from the Fathers or Jesus hand verse. I'm beginning to tire of this nonsence.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've said before and still maintain..Paul was presenting integrety of the scripture...gospel...If you think you are saved and can reject portions of the gospel...your faith is in vain. HOLD on to the truth Paul presents.

That would include this passage then too, right?

"9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6: NASB)

OSAS says I DON'T have to inherit the promises through faith and patience, and that diligent obedience produced by faith is NOT an indicator that one is saved. Surely, holding fast to the integrity of scripture so your faith is not in vain that Paul talks about would include this passage too, right?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When will you explain away the snatching from the Fathers or Jesus hand verse. I'm beginning to tire of this nonsence.

I've never made an argument that someone else or something else can remove you from the hand of God. Only your own willful rejection of Christ can remove you.

 

[for_his_glory]

Then explain the 'if' in 1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB.
Paul says the Corinthians are saved if they hold fast the word he preached to them. OSAS makes his statement utterly meaningless if it's true that they are presently saved if they DON'T hold fast the word he preached to them.


OSAS is the one that decided Paul was including eternal life/salvation in the gifts to Israel that are irrevocable. The text doesn't actually say that. OSAS decided it was included in the irrevocable gifts. We can see from 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB that you are saved if you hold fast the word preached. That means salvation can not be irrevocable simply because it is a gift. It has a condition attached. The condition is that you presently hold fast the gospel to be presently saved. That's what OSAS has to refute in order to defend salvation as a free gift that can't be taken back because it has no conditions attached. But all OSAS has been doing is simply restating it's argument, that salvation/eternal life is a free gift that is irrevocable. OSAS must prove with some kind of a defense that presently holding fast the word to be presently saved is not in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB. OSAS hasn't done that yet.


The problem is OSAS interpretation of scripture doesn't fit the plain words of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB. OSAS has yet to show that the plain words of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB are consistent with it's argument that there are zero conditions attached to the free gift of salvation/eternal life and, therefore, it is irrevocable. It has yet to show that Paul is NOT saying in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB that you are (presently) saved IF you hold fast the gospel you heard.

Reiterating OSAS belief is not what you have to do here. What you have to do is prove 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB is NOT saying "you are saved if you hold fast the word I preached to you". That's what it needs to do. Don't reiterate another claim of OSAS. That doesn't prove the passage doesn't say what it says. What doing that does is leave our Bibles in un-holy contradiction (non-OSAS doesn't do that). OSAS has to undo that contradiction by showing us that Paul's plain words are not there that says, "you are saved if you hold fast the word preached to you" (vs. 2).

What people do not understand is that Gods love alone is unconditional, but His free gift of eternal life does come with conditions that are known as conjunctions of "and, if, but" like the if in John 15:2-6 and 1Cor 15:2. All of Gods promises are irrevocable as His blessings are if we do this or that we will be blessed, but also His promises of cursing are just as irrevocable as in if you do not do this or that you will receive His curses being cut off from Him forever.

 

[Cygnus]

Not Biblical?

" 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9 NASB)

Perhaps the number one reason false doctrine is flourishing and devouring the church at this present time in history is because the church simply does not read and know the Bible. And what reading they do is not the Bible, but books about the Bible, where authors have not rightly divided the word of God and have invented false doctrines that in the end rationalize sin.

Your verse doesn't answer the second part of your statement where you posted;.

"But if they persist in their unbelief he will indeed sentence the former believer sanctified by the blood of Christ to the fate of the enemies of God"

A I said...unbiblical. It shows me you don't read and know the Bible...of course if you feel you have the right to say that about me because I disagree with you...why can't I say you don't read and know the Bible?
How does OSAS rationilize sin? To be honest I find that accusation to be very objectional. Perhaps I could say YOU rationalize sin by being allowed to sin..up to the point you would have God kick you out?

 

[Cygnus]

I've never made an argument that someone else or something else can remove you from the hand of God. Only your own willful rejection of Christ can remove you.

Well Jethro, lets think about that....You are a considered a "one". Scripture says "NO ONE" can snatch you....not even the "one" that is yourself.
Secondly, if you could wilfully reject Jesus...you would have rejected Jesus because of a reason. Perhaps you heard an atheist talk about there being no God and you bought into their lie. Then denounced your faith. The "no one" in that instance would be the atheist who through clever talk snatched you from the hand of Jesus....which we read in the bible is impossible.

 

[MarkT]

I mean, right after he warns the Gentiles about unbelief, he says, once a person is saved they are always saved? I don't think so.