Eternal security or conditional security?

[for_his_glory]

It is my belief that the bible teaches Jesus returns twice. Once in the air...on the clouds...the way He left and a second time when Jesus riding a horse gets off and steps foot on the Mt. of Olives.

What return in your above post are you referring to?

There is nowhere in 1Cor 15:52-58 and 1Thess 4:16,17 that says we go back up to heaven with Jesus when He comes down to the air, but does say we are gathered together with those who rise from the grave first as we meet them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Air here means the first heaven meaning the firmament, Earths Atmosphere which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is the atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

When Christ returns it is only once as He brings with Him the souls of those saints in heaven that will be united now with their glorified bodies that are raised from the grave as we who are alive are gathered together with them as we have been prepared for the marriage of the Lamb. We have been made ready clothed in fine linen, clean and white and return with Jesus as His army when He comes to plant His feet on the mount of Olives and fights the final battle making an end to all abominations here on earth. The heaven and earth are now renewed in order for the new Jerusalem to be ushered down fom heaven and then we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well Jethro, lets think about that....You are a considered a "one". Scripture says "NO ONE" can snatch you....not even the "one" that is yourself.

But to include me myself and my own unbelief in what Paul said can't separate me from God's hand and love (John 10:28-29, Romans 8:31-39 NASB) is to violate other scripture (i.e. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

Scriptural truth means considering the whole counsel of scripture to come to that truth. OSAS doesn't do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your verse doesn't answer the second part of your statement where you posted;.

"But if they persist in their unbelief he will indeed sentence the former believer sanctified by the blood of Christ to the fate of the enemies of God"

It does answer it.

I know that Hebrews 10:26-31 can't mean an immediate, legalistic sentencing of the person sanctified by the blood of Christ but who is now rejecting Christ because to believe that would make this scripture false:

"9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9 NASB)

Since I know from this scripture that God is patient with us in regard to Judgment in the hope that we will come to repentance I can know Hebrews 10:26-31 is applied after a patient, long suffering wait for the person to come to repentance.

 

[turnorburn]

No.
One inherits eternal life by having faith, as evidenced by a life of obedient work:

"9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6: NASB)

But OSAS says you still inherit the promises without faith and patience (the perseverance of faith) and the work it produces. Which essentially makes the author of Hebrews exhortation completely and utterly meaningless.

Jethro you said: "One inherits eternal life by having faith, as evidenced by a life of obedient work:"

A certain ruler asked Jesus this was/is his reply...

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Have you done these things?

 

[Cygnus]

There is nowhere in 1Cor 15:52-58 and 1Thess 4:16,17 that says we go back up to heaven with Jesus when He comes down to the air, but does say we are gathered together with those who rise from the grave first as we meet them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Air here means the first heaven meaning the firmament, Earths Atmosphere which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is the atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

When Christ returns it is only once as He brings with Him the souls of those saints in heaven that will be united now with their glorified bodies that are raised from the grave as we who are alive are gathered together with them as we have been prepared for the marriage of the Lamb. We have been made ready clothed in fine linen, clean and white and return with Jesus as His army when He comes to plant His feet on the mount of Olives and fights the final battle making an end to all abominations here on earth. The heaven and earth are now renewed in order for the new Jerusalem to be ushered down fom heaven and then we will be with the Lord forever.

I have to disagree. Not that it really matters....but the bible says Jesus comes back twice. In the air (rapture) then again when He stands on earth arriving on a horse.

Acts 1:9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

There is no horse when Jesus left. When Jesus comes again referring to the blue above Jesus will not be riiding a horse.

So, what described that above? Where does Jesus return with clouds like he left with no horse?
1 Thes 4:16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord

 

[Cygnus]

But to include me myself and my own unbelief in what Paul said can't separate me from God's hand and love (John 10:28-29, Romans 8:31-39 NASB) is to violate other scripture (i.e. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

Scriptural truth means considering the whole counsel of scripture to come to that truth. OSAS doesn't do that.

We've been all over the "hold fast" (keep in memory) verse, usage, meaning etc. Your entire theology seems to pivot on a verse that contains a word that is more controversial than allowed to make such a dogmatic statement.

Your problem is getting around the no snatching verse.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro you said: "One inherits eternal life by having faith, as evidenced by a life of obedient work:"

A certain ruler asked Jesus this was/is his reply...

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Have you done these things?

Yes.
But it was easy for me because I've never had riches to sell to be evidence of my faith. You can put me more in the category of the widow and her two mites.

My take on the passage is the rich ruler's sadness at the suggestion to sell his abundance off and give to the poor indicates he may not have had the love of God in him in a salvation experience:

17If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?" (1 John 3:17 NASB)

The passage does not suggest that he was unwillingly to do righteous work to get saved. It's not a passage about earning your way to heaven through righteous deeds. It's about having the evidence of the faith and love of God in you that secures the promise of heavenly gifts. The very law he thought perhaps acquitted him of wrong doing actually condemned him. Jesus was showing this to him.

"11There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land." (Deuteronomy 15:11 NASB)

 

[JLB]

You do understand that all of a christians works will be judged via fire?
I thought we've been over this already.
1 Cor 3:14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire

You have been shown specifically and clearly that the worker's work is people.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:9-17


Can you guess what the destruction is that God destroys with?

and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10


“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your problem is getting around the no snatching verse.

If you make me or anyone else include our own willful unbelief and rejection of Christ in that verse then you cause us to violate other scripture.

 

[Cygnus]

It does answer it.

I know that Hebrews 10:26-31 can't mean an immediate, legalistic sentencing of the person sanctified by the blood of Christ but who is now rejecting Christ because to believe that would make this scripture false:

"9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9 NASB)

Since I know from this scripture that God is patient with us in regard to Judgment in the hope that we will come to repentance I can know Hebrews 10:26-31 is applied after a patient, long suffering wait for the person to come to repentance.

God is God is patient with us in regard to the elect choosen before the earth was formed. Some of the elect might not even be born yet. He'll wait.

 

[Cygnus]

If you make me or anyone else include our own willful unbelief and rejection of Christ in that verse then you cause us to violate other scripture.

Yes, your adding to scripture does cause you to violate scripture. The verse says NO ONE....which includes yourself.

 

[Cygnus]

Jethro you said: "One inherits eternal life by having faith, as evidenced by a life of obedient work:"

A certain ruler asked Jesus this was/is his reply...

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Have you done these things?

"Have you done these things"?.....That's not required. To put it in that context is to take the parable out of context.

 

[JLB]

Would you suggest Jairus became de-saved when he "fell down" at Jesus' feet?

Luk 8:41 And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:

Are you sure that's what the word means? Doesn't it just simply mean to fall, not to become de-saved?

Luk 14:5 (KJV) And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
Did the donkey and ox become 'de-saved' when they fell into a pit?

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from
      

The context is clear.


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

You have been shown specifically and clearly that the worker's work is people.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:9-17


Can you guess what the destruction is that God destroys with?

and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10


“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


JLB

If you don't mind I'll avoid and denounce your gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We've been all over the "hold fast" (keep in memory) verse, usage, meaning etc. Your entire theology seems to pivot on a verse that contains a word that is more controversial than allowed to make such a dogmatic statement.

You must not understand the argument then.
Paul said the Corinthians are presently saved (check the tense if you want) if you are presently holding fast (check the tense if you want) the word of the gospel (the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ-vs.3-4, the very next verses-check it for yourself) that he preached to them at first (check the tense if you want).

"1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15: NASB)

At first I got challenge after challenge about the meaning of 'vain', and then the 'if', and 'hold fast' in the attempt to remove any notion of non-OSAS from the passage. But now even gr8grace3 acknowledges that it means exactly what it says, that "you are saved if you hold firmly the word I preached to you", but he is now challenging the definition of 'saved' to mean something that preserves a OSAS message in the passage.


You can check all the tenses in the passage here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/1/t_conc_1077001 (click on the 'parse' buttons)
And learn about the Greek tenses here: http://ezraproject.com/id27.html

 

[JLB]

If you don't mind I'll avoid and denounce your gospel.

Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

You must not understand the argument then.
Paul said the Corinthians are presently saved (check the tense if you want) if you are presently holding fast (check the tense if you want) the word of the gospel (the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ-vs.3-4, the very next verses-check it for yourself) that he preached to them at first (check the tense if you want).

"1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15: NASB)

At first I got challenge after challenge about the meaning of 'vain', and then the 'if', and 'hold fast' in the attempt to remove any notion of non-OSAS from the passage. But now even gr8grace3 acknowledges that it means exactly what it says, that "you are saved if you hold firmly the word I preached to you", but he is now challenging the definition of 'saved' to mean something that preserves a OSAS message in the passage.


You can check all the tenses in the passage here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/1/t_conc_1077001 (click on the 'parse' buttons)
And learn about the Greek tenses here: http://ezraproject.com/id27.html

Show me one commentary that agree's with you.

Gills commentary put's the verse in context.
By which also ye are saved,.... It was the means of their salvation, and had been made the power of God unto salvation to them. Salvation is inseparably connected with true faith in Christ as a Saviour, and with a hearty belief of his resurrection from the dead, which is the earnest and pledge of the resurrection of the saints; and because of the certainty of it in the promise of God, through the obedience and death of Christ, and in the faith and hope of believers, which are sure and certain things, they are said to be saved already. To which the apostle puts in the following provisos and exceptions; the one is, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you; or rather, "if ye hold fast, or retain"; that is, by faith, the doctrine preached to you, and received by you, particularly the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead; for the salvation that is connected with it does not depend upon the strength of the memory, but upon the truth and steadfastness of faith: it is the man that perseveres in the faith and doctrine of Christ that shall be saved; and everyone that has truly believed in Christ, and cordially embraced his Gospel, shall hold on, and out to the end; though the faith of nominal believers may be overthrown by such men, as Hymenaeus and Philetus, who asserted, that the resurrection was past already; but so shall not the faith of real believers, because the foundation on which they are built stands sure, and the Lord has perfect knowledge of them, and will keep and save them. The other exception is, unless ye have believed in vain: not that true faith can be in vain; for that is the faith of God's elect, the gift of his grace, the operation of his Spirit; Christ is the author and finisher of it, and will never suffer it to fail; it will certainly issue in everlasting salvation: but then as the word may be heard in vain, as it is by such who are compared to the wayside, and to the thorny and rocky ground; and as the Gospel of the grace of God may be received in vain; so a mere historical faith may be in vain; this a man may have, and not the grace of God, and so be nothing; with this he may believe for a while, and then drop it: and since each of these might possibly be the case of some in this church, the apostle puts in these exceptions, in order to awaken the attention of them all to this important doctrine he was reminding them of.

Pulpit commentary on same page says: The duty of "holding fast" what they had heard is often impressed on the early converts

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God is God is patient with us in regard to the elect choosen before the earth was formed. Some of the elect might not even be born yet. He'll wait.

If election is true in how I think you are presenting it here then we can all go home to our favorite hobbies, sins, etc. and not be bothered with all of this.

 

[Cygnus]

Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13



JLB

Once again scripture is RIPPED from it's context.
Quote mining at its finest.

Have you read the text? The context of the scripture surrounding that verse? YOU can't make scripture say what it doesn't.

What is Matt 24 about? Have you ever read the entire chapter?

Answer the following:
Endures what?
To the end of what?
Saved from what?

Sheeze, will you people stop using that verse to support you can lose your salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

If election is true in how I think you are presenting it here then we can all go home to our favorite hobbies, sins, etc. and not be bothered with all of this.

If your flawed theology is true...then we can sin up to the point we lose our salvation...then back off slightly.