Eternal security or conditional security?

[smaller]

Yes, much different than believing in Christ for salvation whereby you have the forgiveness of sins, as opposed to believing God for material things or not.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Unbelief in Christ results in departing from Him.

There is no escape. We've covered this before.

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

 

[smaller]

However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 1 Timothy 1:16

and again

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,Hebrews 3:12-14


and again

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

and again

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

Temporary believing = Temporary Salvation.

JLB

We've covered this before as well. Jesus never leaves them regardless of whether they perceive this or not. When we discuss spiritual blindness there are other parties than just the person to look to, that being both Gods Intentions and the intentions of our adversary. It is quite pointless to see just a person.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[JLB]

We've covered this before as well. Jesus never leaves them regardless of whether they perceive this or not. When we discuss spiritual blindness there are other parties than just the person to look to, that being both Gods Intentions and the intentions of our adversary. It is quite pointless to see just a person.

We are discussing salvation, through faith in Christ, believing on Him for everlasting life, vs believing on Him for awhile then departing from Him.

Please address the words and language of the scriptures.


However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Himfor everlasting life. 1 Timothy 1:16

and again

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,Hebrews 3:12-14


and again

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

and again

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13


Temporary believing = Temporary Salvation.


JLB

 

[JLB]

There is no escape. We've covered this before.

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

If we turn away from from Him, the we are not a partaker of Him, and do not have Him.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

Having the Son and partaking of the Son is to those who believe, steadfast to the end.

Not to those who believe for a while.

Temporary believing results in temporary salvation.

Those who once believed, then no longer believe, no longer have the salvation that comes from believing.



JLB

 

[smaller]

We are discussing salvation, through faith in Christ, believing on Him for everlasting life, vs believing on Him for awhile then departing from Him.

Please address the words and language of the scriptures.

I don't need you to define the topic or be forced to bow to partial sight from your aspects.

There is no escape. That much is just as solid a fact as you propose. There simply is no 'escape' from Jesus. "how much more shall we not escape" if we turn away is pretty clear on this count from Heb. 12:25.

You and I have no way of assessing the "reality" of the Spirit of Christ within anyone in any case. It's an internal matter. When you might think or say that Jesus isn't within those who have called upon Him to save, you are just guessing by a personally contrived erector set. The same set of scriptures claim that Jesus NEVER LEAVES.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

That ABIDING is in fact INTERNAL in those who have called upon Him to save them. He's not going away or abandoning any who have called. Not happening.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It is so interesting how you can get away with these "little jabs" and your actually the one that hasn't went past the "Sunday morning christian" if you hold to this view of that verse.

That is an ad hominem comment and not allowed in the ToS and of course I will not oblige you by forgetting whose I am and groveling in the dirt.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It is so interesting how you can get away with these "little jabs" and your actually the one that hasn't went past the "Sunday morning christian" if you hold to this view of that verse.

Pretty much every "sunday morning christian" is going to fall for............"Your going to lose salvation if you ever stop believing!"

But the ones who are studying to show themselves approved will know what the actual meaning is to that verse.

Please watch my fingers, I never said one single thing about anyone losing their salvation! Maybe you allow your passion to grow into anger?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said: ↑
Rom 8:38-39
38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Does that include hell?

Now, why would the future include hell? Only when one ASSUMES that one who has been given eternal life may lost it. The context is what can separate us from God's love. Which means NOTHING can, including whatever may happen in the future.

Does God still love those who have be sentenced to hell?

Certainly not in the same sense as His own children. I think that should be quite obvious.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29

No mention of eternal life here.

No need to. Paul had already described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. Again, eternal life IS a gift of God, AND, God's gifts are irrevocable. You just can't get away from it, no matter how much you keep trying.

Sorry but you will have to explain, with scripture, how a person is still saved, if they no longer believe.

You have avoided this request, over and over, offering no answer.

I've given the answer over and over, but you have avoided my answer over and over.

Since you simply will not believe that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable, we are at an impasse.

Please explain to all of us how a person who once believed in Jesus Christ for salvation, then no longer believes, is still saved... with scripture. You have never done this.

Amazing untruth!

Those who HAVE eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28 says so directly.

Please explain to all of us how one will LOSE eternal life, a gift of God that is irrevocable. That's the real trick here!!

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

...and goes on to say about this departing from the living God -

When one ceases to believe, they completely break off fellowship, JUST AS the prodigal son did when he departed from his father. That never stopped the father from loving his son. And the son remained a son. That parable isn't about relationship, but fellowship.

Those who believe for a while then turn away from Christ under persecution, are no longer believers.

So what? Where's any verse that actually tells us that one can lose eternal life or salvation by any means.

But the ones on the rock

are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
JLB

So what? I don't see anything here about loss of salvation or eternal life. Where in the verse do you see it?

[Unsupported counterpoint. Please review the forum guidelines. WIP]

[Personal assumption regarding another member. Violation of ToS 2.4. WIP]

 

[FreeGrace]

However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 1 Timothy 1:16

And the very good news is what Jesus promised:
"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." Jn 10:28

Back in Jn 5:24, He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life. So where are any verses that tell us that one can actually LOSE this gift of God????

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

[Trolling. Please review the ToS. WIP]

Temporary believing = Temporary Salvation.
JLB

And what verses actually say so?

[Personal opinion regarding another member. Please review ToS 2.4.]

 

[FreeGrace]

If we turn away from from Him, the we are not a partaker of Him, and do not have Him.

Would you please quote any verse that says what you are claiming here? Specifically that we "don't have Him" based on anything. [Personal opinion regarding another member. See ToS 2.4. WIP]

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

This doesn't say what you are claiming. What verse does? You're going to have to explain with exegesis how "not being a partaker" means to "not have Him". The Greek word (I recall your not being impressed with Greek scholars) means to partner. How does not being a partner mean to "not have" Him?

In the relationship between birth parent and child, there is either a partnership or not so much. But the parent and child will ALWAYS have the other in that relationship.

So, once again, we are talking about fellowship,[personal opinion. WIP]

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

Having the Son and partaking of the Son is to those who believe, steadfast to the end.

[Personal opinion....trolling. WIP]

A child can have a parent, yet not be a partaker (partner) with them. And vice versa.

Temporary believing results in temporary salvation.

You keep repeating this but never with any support from Scripture. [Personal conjecture.]

Those who once believed, then no longer believe, no longer have the salvation that comes from believing.

You keep repeating this as if true, but never have provided any verse that says this.

[Personal conjecture.]

 

[JLB]

And the very good news is what Jesus promised:
"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." Jn 10:28

Back in Jn 5:24, He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life. So where are any verses that tell us that one can actually LOSE this gift of God????

That is very good news.

The problem is, the phrase "no one will snatch them out of my hand" is a direct reference to His disciples, that followed Him while He was on earth.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-29

The disciples literally heard His voice, and followed Him wherever He went.

These men were chosen by His Father to be His disciples and carry the Gospel Message, and make disciples.

There's a good reason why you don't post the scripture's, but rather, you post your opinion then tag it with a scripture reference.

When one reads the scripture itself, and the context, it's easy to see that.

Furthermore, no one will snatch them out of my hand, doesn't deal with the other two options whereby a person can become disconnected from Christ.

• The person can be removed by God Himself.
• The person can decide to no longer believe in Jesus Christ, and turn to other gods to serve them.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
John 15:2


This is the same John who wrote John 5:24 and John 10:27-28.

You don't seem to be interested in reconciling what all the scriptures say, but rather just what your "preconceived" doctrine teaches.


Those who believe are promised eternal life.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers, since they no longer believe.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Would you please quote any verse that says what you are claiming here? Specifically that we "don't have Him" based on anything. I suspect this is your opinion and assumptions holding sway, rather than what the Word of God actually says.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Those who have an evil heart of unbelief, and depart from God, are no longer His.

Depart from, means you were a part of the you departed from Him.

Definition

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

King James Word Usage - Total: 15
depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1, depart from 1


Those who depart from Him in unbelief, have disconnected from Him. LIke a branch that is no longer connected to the Vine that sustains it, these will wither and die.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:5-6

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

...they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

What is it about thrown into the fire and burned, that you do not understand?


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not going to re-hash the context for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You are free to believe whatever you wish.


Sorry, but you're just not making any sense. I have no idea what conjunction have to do with this, since you haven't provided ANY examples to show HOW they are applicable. Until you do, I'm not interested in trying to read your mind.

btw, I CAN ask any number of questions. What I hope to expect is for those who respond, to actually answer the questions. But free will prevents my wish to be fulfilled.


Please show me ANY verses that condition salvation/eternal life on anything IN ADDITION to believing in Christ.


So, just to be clear, you agree with the first 5 points, which teach eternal security. But you also believe that there are verses that teach conditional security.

I'm sure you must be aware that your view here is totally contradictory. If the Bible teaches eternal security AND conditional security, then the Bible is internally contradicted.

Are you comfortable with that vbiew? I'm NOT.


If security is conditional, then it cannot be eternally secure.

I think the problem is that you don't understand that "eternal security" means unconditional in the sense that AFTER one believes in Christ, there are NO conditions by which one will lose eternal life.

The Bible teaches that eternal life, which is a gift of God, is irrevocable. Those who believe in conditional security seem not to believe that.

Eternal life is a gift of God and is irrevocable as we all agree with that, but only irrevocable to those who keep faith that is Christ Jesus. If they denounce their faith to save their own life the they will eradicate the irrevocable and lose eternal life, Mark 8:35,36.

The conjunction "but" and "if" is the clause of this that which is irrevocable.

We have been showing you those verses that can cause one to lose their Salvation, but it seems that you choose to ignore them. All of us who have gone to school as a child has learned what conjunctions are in the "and, if, but" as these are conditional words.

The definition of a conjunction, for the purpose of Bible study, is a word used with a clause or sentence to show its relation to some other clause or sentence. Like a sentence, a clause has a subject and a predicate but a sentence may utilize several clauses. A subject may be implied, but not the verb.

 

[FreeGrace]

That is very good news.

The problem is, the phrase "no one will snatch them out of my hand" is a direct reference to His disciples, that followed Him while He was on earth.

No, it is not. And you haven't shown that it is. The context begins back in v.9 of ch 10, where Jesus said this:
"I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture." Jn 10:9

Do you understand metaphors? When Jesus said, "if anyone enters by me", He was saying "if anyone believe in Me". Do you agree? If not, then just what was He saying?

However, that IS what He was saying. And the word "enters" is in the aorist tense, meaning "point in time", NOT continuous action that you keep claiming is necessary for salvation.

And we know from John 5:24 that those who believe HAVE eternal life. That's who He was talking about in John 10:28, not some "subset" of believers, as you insinuate.

Those who have "entered by Him" are SAVED. He says so. And they HAVE eternal life. He says so.

And those who have believed, and HAVE eternal life, WILL NEVER PERISH. He says so.

This directly affirms what Paul wrote in Rom 6:23 and 11:29 about eternal life being a gift of God and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

I'm always amazed at your theological gymnastics in trying to get around this fact.

[27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-29

The context for His sheep begins in v.9 by the phrase "if anyone enters by Me". Such ones are SAVED.

The disciples literally heard His voice, and followed Him wherever He went.

So you're saying that only the 12 were saved????? We must include ALL of the context to understand ANY of the passage.

There's a good reason why you don't post the scripture's

Actually, there is no good reason why you keep perpetuating this LIE. Stop it.

but rather, you post your opinion then tag it with a scripture reference.

How many times have I quoted John 5:24, John 10:9, 10:28 to you? Please stop your untruths.

When one reads the scripture itself, and the context, it's easy to see that.

I've ignored the context in order to fit your own opinions.

This is the same John who wrote John 5:24 and John 10:27-28.

This is no reason on earth to suggest that Jesus was internally contradictory. None.

You don't seem to be interested in reconciling what all the scriptures say, but rather just what your "preconceived" doctrine teaches.

I'm the one who has actually shown ALL the Scriptures. You've only been focused on the ones you assume teach loss of salvation, even though NONE of them actually do teach that.

Those who believe are promised eternal life.

And since God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29, eternal life, a gift of God is irrevocable.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers, since they no longer believe.

Immaterial to the discussion, UNLESS one can provide any Scripture that tells us that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. Where are they? They don't exist. Such a view is not found in Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Those who have an evil heart of unbelief, and depart from God, are no longer His.

You've not proven this assumption yet. Rom 8:38-39 actually refutes your assumption. The "future" would include even those who "depart from God". Makes no difference. And since eternal life is irrevocable, you have no point.

Depart from, means you were a part of the you departed from Him.

Definition

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

1. 1. It means to leave, just as the prodigal son had left. There was no suggestion that the prodigal lost any salvation. The issue was fellowship with his father, or loss of it.

Those who depart from Him in unbelief, have disconnected from Him. LIke a branch that is no longer connected to the Vine that sustains it, these will wither and die.

More assumption and opinion, totally without any support from Scripture. And the Scripture teaches that eternal life is a gift of God, that is irrevocable.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:5-6

Those who don't or won't understand fellowship will never understand this passage, or many others.

...they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
What is it about thrown into the fire and burned, that you do not understand?
JLB

This isn't about what I don't understand, but rather, what you don't understand. Fellowship, not relationship.

If this passage were about loss of salvation, then the Bible is totally contradicted and God isn't God.

I'll never accept such a notion that the Bible is contradicted.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal life is a gift of God and is irrevocable as we all agree with that, but only irrevocable to those who keep faith that is Christ Jesus.

And what verse teaches this idea? Please quote it for all to see.

If they denounce their faith to save their own life the they will eradicate the irrevocable and lose eternal life, Mark 8:35,36.

It appears you don't understand the meaning of "irrevocable". What verse tells us that any action will "eradicate" a gift that is irrevocable???

The very concept is irrational and unreasonable, and demonstrates a failure to understand the words involved.

The conjunction "but" and "if" is the clause of this that which is irrevocable.

Just show me any verse that speaks of the irrevocable gift being "eradicated".

We have been showing you those verses that can cause one to lose their Salvation, but it seems that you choose to ignore them.

Maybe you've ignored all the posts where I've actually shown what they DO mean, which is NOT loss of salvation.

All of us who have gone to school as a child has learned what conjunctions are in the "and, if, but" as these are conditional words.

There's a lot of conditions in the Bible. Sure. But show me ANY verse that speaks of how to lose eternal life.

The definition of a conjunction, for the purpose of Bible study, is a word used with a clause or sentence to show its relation to some other clause or sentence. Like a sentence, a clause has a subject and a predicate but a sentence may utilize several clauses. A subject may be implied, but not the verb.

With respect, so what?

Just show me any verse that out and out tells me how I can lose my irrevocable gift of eternal life.

I dare anyone to find such a verse because I know that none exist.

 

[for_his_glory]

And what verse teaches this idea? Please quote it for all to see. It appears you don't understand the meaning of "irrevocable". What verse tells us that any action will "eradicate" a gift that is irrevocable??? The very concept is irrational and unreasonable, and demonstrates a failure to understand the words involved. Just show me any verse that speaks of the irrevocable gift being "eradicated". Maybe you've ignored all the posts where I've actually shown what they DO mean, which is NOT loss of salvation. There's a lot of conditions in the Bible. Sure. But show me ANY verse that speaks of how to lose eternal life. With respect, so what? Just show me any verse that out and out tells me how I can lose my irrevocable gift of eternal life. I dare anyone to find such a verse because I know that none exist.

I and a few others have already given you scripture that shows how one can lose their salvation such as Matthew 12:31,32; Mark 8:35,36; Rev 2:9 just to name a few, but you seem to think what Jesus himself is speaking of is something altogether different than one denouncing their faith that is Christ Jesus. I have nothing more to add to this topic as it is fruitless in conversation and getting us nowhere so God bless and you have a great evening.

 

[chessman]

FreeGrace , Would you say that you hold a firm belief that Jesus is the Messiah spoken of in the OT, that He (being The Son of God) died for your sins, was buried, rose from the Dead bodily on the Third Day and appeared to the disciples after His death and burial?

 

[th1b.taylor]

I said: ↑
Rom 8:38-39
38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now, why would the future include hell? Only when one ASSUMES that one who has been given eternal life may lost it. The context is what can separate us from God's love. Which means NOTHING can, including whatever may happen in the future.


Certainly not in the same sense as His own children. I think that should be quite obvious.


No need to. Paul had already described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. Again, eternal life IS a gift of God, AND, God's gifts are irrevocable. You just can't get away from it, no matter how much you keep trying.


I've given the answer over and over, but you have avoided my answer over and over.

Since you simply will not believe that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable, we are at an impasse.

Amazing untruth!

Those who HAVE eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28 says so directly.

Please explain to all of us how one will LOSE eternal life, a gift of God that is irrevocable. That's the real trick here!!


When one ceases to believe, they completely break off fellowship, JUST AS the prodigal son did when he departed from his father. That never stopped the father from loving his son. And the son remained a son. That parable isn't about relationship, but fellowship.


So what? Where's any verse that actually tells us that one can lose eternal life or salvation by any means.


So what? I don't see anything here about loss of salvation or eternal life. Where in the verse do you see it?

[Unsupported counterpoint. Please review the forum guidelines. WIP]

[Personal assumption regarding another member. Violation of ToS 2.4. WIP]

JLB and I have had a bout on this subject and I got nothing scriptural. But before one of us goes nuts let me say where I stand.

There is more than 98% of the Christian Church that do not belong to the Church but rather to the church. Caps make all the difference in the world here. I base this opinion on the mid-eighties Barna Survey of the Christian Church. The survey was about Basics only and was completed double blind for the most hones answers possible without torture.

Less than 2% of the certifiable Faithful believed in the Virgin Birth, Payment for our sins on the cross and that Jesus will return for us.

So it is that I look over the Church and see a mission Field. Most of the people are Pew Whales setting going feed me, feed me and never studying the Bible to know Jesus. Almost every one of those Pew Whales will proclaim Salvation is theirs and some will say God owes them because...

It is therefore my position that a saved man cannot loose his or her salvation, you have listed the scriptures. And when one leaves the Church, not the church, I am left to ask, "Was he or she ever saved?" If they do not return, repenting. after a season I am left to judge their fruit as rotten and our Savior instructed that we will know them by their fruits.

 

[Hospes]

I asked you... Is having a living faith considered work?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

The faith you have is a gift from God.
The faith you have, came from God, when you heard His word, the Gospel of your salvation.

The faith you have been given is the substance of the salvation you are hoping for, in which you will receive at the end of your faith.

...receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9


After all the bible does say... Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12
JLB

Okay...you seem to think I need convinced of something, though I am not sure what. Never mind. I'll try to ask a straightforward question and if you give a straightforward answer, we can go from there.

How does a born-again person lose their salvation?