Eternal security or conditional security?

[MarkT]

I've done that.


Because they NEVER believed, and therefore, never received eternal life.


What prevents a person from ever going to hell is having believed in Christ and receiving eternal life.

Jesus promises that those He gives eternal life to (believers) WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28

If one has received eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. Simple as that. Jesus said so.

And there are no verses that indicate that eternal life can be removed or taken away, or given away, or any other way to communicate loss of eternal life.

Therefore, once saved, they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Or, OSWNP.

Jude reminds us of those who were destroyed because of unbelief.

Now I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 1:5

It doesn't matter if a man believed once or not. When Jesus returns, will he find him believing or not believing? God destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[chessman]

This is a slightly different way of saying "Well s/he was just never really saved in the first place".. Which in my mind is a copout..

"Copout" would imply there's no Biblical support for this veiw. But there is support for it:

1 John 2:18-19, 22 (LEB) ... even now many antichrists have arisen, by which we know that it is the last hour. They (deniers of Christ, antichrists, see v 22) went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But they went out, in order that it might be shown that all of them are not of us.

22Who is the liar except the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This person is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. ​

This seems to me to be John directly addressing the same question we are here in this thread. 'How can someone seem like a Christian to us, even claim they are and even live among us seemingly like they are, yet later on in their life deny Christ? John (not just me) says they are a liar and were not of us.

 

[Douglas Summers]

A person can indeed believe and be saved. However if they turn back to their formal lifestyle of serving the devil, and practicing the works of the flesh, then as Peter said...it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it...

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21

None of these Scripture seem to be talking about a saved person. They seem to be talking about those who have been preached to and have seen the power of the Holy Spirit working within the congregation and know the way to salvation, but returned to their former ways. And some even start their own church teaching the doctrines of men. LDS, JW.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's why you have proven nothing, until you post the scripture that teaches what your opinion states.

I have, for all to see and read. It's the opinions of LOS doctrine that haven't been proven from Scripture.

I proved that those who believe in Christ HAVE eternal life. Because Jesus said so.
John 3:15 - so that whoever believes will in Him HAVE eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:47 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life.

These words of Jesus prove that the claim that one only gets eternal life at the end of their life, from an erroneous mis-translation of 1 Pet 1:9, is a false claim. Only the KJV renders it "end of your faith", which clearly doesn't mean "end of your life". The NASB translates the phrase as "outcome of your faith".

I proved that those who HAVE eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Because Jesus said so.
John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:26-29

Key Phrase: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

The context for Jesus' sheep begins back in v.7:
So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

Then, in v.9 He tells us HOW one becomes one of His sheep:
“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

So, when He says "My sheep" in v.27, He was referring to those who 'entered through Him' and ARE SAVED.

Therefore, He was clear about those who ARE SAVED: they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Eternal life is knowing Him.

Knowing Him is the biblical definition of eternal life.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Eternal life has also been said to be something received, something that a believer HAS. So your definition lacks the full meaning of the term.

A person can indeed believe and be saved.

Yes, this is true because Jesus said so. And Jesus didn't just stop there. He said of those who believe and are saved, that THEY WILL NEVER PERISH.

But LOS doctrine contradicts the words of Jesus by claiming that a believer can lose eternal life and perish.

So, where is the verse that tells me that I can lose eternal life? Without such a verse, LOS doctrine falls completely apart.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jude reminds us of those who were destroyed because of unbelief.

Now I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 1:5

It doesn't matter if a man believed once or not. When Jesus returns, will he find him believing or not believing? God destroyed those who did not believe.

The reference to the Exodus wasn't about lacking saving faith, it was that the people consistently lacked trust in God to meet their ongoing physical needs. They grumbled every time they turned around. Yet, God continued to meet all their needs.

It was even said of Moses that his striking the rock when God told him to speak to the rock for water was an act of UNBELIEF. The result? He was not permitted to enter the promised land. Does that sound like Moses didn't have saving faith? Surely not.

 

[chessman]

Jude reminds us of those who were destroyed because of unbelief.

It's a great reminder of God's discipline toward those He's saved from sin. Yes, even to the point of the punishment of death if necessary. It's a terrible example, however, to show anti-OSAS Biblically speaking. Why??? Because Moses was among all those 'destroyed' in the desert for his 'unbelief'. Yet Moses is clearly said to be with Jesus now.

Jude 1:9 (LEB) But Michael the archangel, when he argued with the devil, disputing concerning the body of Moses, did not dare to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” ​

Nobody can rightfully call someone who God has called a son, a slave of the devil. And those that died in the desert belonged to God, not Satan. He feed them for 40 years for a reason (John 6:31-31). God rebuked them when necessary for a reason. And yes, they were 'destroyed' in the desert for a reason. But they weren't sent to Hell when they were destroyed in the desert Unless Moses was. And he wasn't.

It doesn't matter if a man believed once or not.

When you believe once (at the time you believe), you are:

1. placed in the hand of The Father forever (John 6:37, John 10:29)
2. Saved (Eph 2:8)
3. Baptized with The Holy Spirit (John 7:39, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:13)
4. given Eternal Life (John 6:40)
5. given God's irrevocable gifts (Rom 11:29)
6. lead by God's correction and discipline (Heb 12:5-11, 1 Cor 11:31)
7...

I'm sure these things (and a bunch more I didn't list) matter.

 

[JLB]

None of these Scripture seem to be talking about a saved person. They seem to be talking about those who have been preached to and have seen the power of the Holy Spirit working within the congregation and know the way to salvation, but returned to their former ways. And some even start their own church teaching the doctrines of men. LDS, JW.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20


Not even close.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It's a great reminder of God's discipline toward those He's saved from sin. Yes, even to the point of the punishment of death if necessary. It's a terrible example, however, to show anti-OSAS Biblically speaking. Why??? Because Moses was among all those 'destroyed' in the desert for his 'unbelief'. Yet Moses is clearly said to be with Jesus now.

Jude 1:9 (LEB) But Michael the archangel, when he argued with the devil, disputing concerning the body of Moses, did not dare to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” ​

Nobody can rightfully call someone who God has called a son, a slave of the devil. And those that died in the desert belonged to God, not Satan. He feed them for 40 years for a reason (John 6:31-31). God rebuked them when necessary for a reason. And yes, they were 'destroyed' in the desert for a reason. But they weren't sent to Hell when they were destroyed in the desert Unless Moses was. And he wasn't.


When you believe once (at the time you believe), you are:

1. placed in the hand of The Father forever (John 6:37, John 10:29)
2. Saved (Eph 2:8)
3. Baptized with The Holy Spirit (John 7:39, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:13)
4. given Eternal Life (John 6:40)
5. given God's irrevocable gifts (Rom 11:29)
6. lead by God's correction and discipline (Heb 12:5-11, 1 Cor 11:31)
7...

I'm sure these things (and a bunch more I didn't list) matter.

Believers are promised eternal life.

Those who believe for a while, then turn away, and depart from Him, no longer believe.

I don't find anywhere in the bible that apostates and hypocrites are promised eternal life.

Those who know Him, have eternal life.

Those who used to know Him, used to have eternal life.


And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

This statement was made about His disciples, but can apply to those who qualify... ie; those who -
...hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Now here is the qualification of knowing Him... so that we are clear about the biblical qualifications of knowing Him. Anyone can say, "Oh I know Him", so I'm saved...

He who says, “I know Him,”and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Nobody can rightfully call someone who God has called a son, a slave of the devil. And those that died in the desert belonged to God, not Satan. He feed them for 40 years for a reason (John 6:31-31). God rebuked them when necessary for a reason. And yes, they were 'destroyed' in the desert for a reason. But they weren't sent to Hell when they were destroyed in the desert Unless Moses was. And he wasn't.

And proof of the fact that the Exodus generation were saved is found in the words of Paul:
1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. 1 Cor 10:1-5

v.2-4 proves that they were saved. And v.5 proves that God was displeased with most of them. And disciplined them by various sufferings, up to and including physical death. Which wasn't by dying in their sleep.

When you believe once (at the time you believe), you are:

1. placed in the hand of The Father forever (John 6:37, John 10:29)
2. Saved (Eph 2:8)
3. Baptized with The Holy Spirit (John 7:39, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:13)
4. given Eternal Life (John 6:40)
5. given God's irrevocable gifts (Rom 11:29)
6. lead by God's correction and discipline (Heb 12:5-11, 1 Cor 11:31)
7...

I'm sure these things (and a bunch more I didn't list) matter.

They sure do matter. They matter eternally!

 

[MarkT]

FG

How does, "eternal life is irrevocable" (what you think he said) logically follow, "As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. Romans 11:28 (what Paul said)? I don't know. Even the word 'irrevocable' demands we see a covenant or a contract or a promise. Therefore God promised the call and the gifts. You could say he promised eternal life. That would be ok. But that's not saying anything about unbelief or falling into unbelief.

 

[chessman]

Believers are promised eternal life.
JLB

Biblically speaking, believers are given Eternal Life when they believe.

1 John 5:11 (LEB)

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.​

Paul in 1 Cor 15 (LEB) recognizes this fact as well.

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been in vain.​

He doesn't say I might become what He's promised. Nor does he allow for God's grace to become vain (to no purpose).

 

[MarkT]

It's a great reminder of God's discipline toward those He's saved from sin. Yes, even to the point of the punishment of death if necessary. It's a terrible example, however, to show anti-OSAS Biblically speaking. Why??? Because Moses was among all those 'destroyed' in the desert for his 'unbelief'. Yet Moses is clearly said to be with Jesus now.

Jude 1:9 (LEB) But Michael the archangel, when he argued with the devil, disputing concerning the body of Moses, did not dare to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” ​

Nobody can rightfully call someone who God has called a son, a slave of the devil. And those that died in the desert belonged to God, not Satan. He feed them for 40 years for a reason (John 6:31-31). God rebuked them when necessary for a reason. And yes, they were 'destroyed' in the desert for a reason. But they weren't sent to Hell when they were destroyed in the desert Unless Moses was. And he wasn't.


When you believe once (at the time you believe), you are:

1. placed in the hand of The Father forever (John 6:37, John 10:29)
2. Saved (Eph 2:8)
3. Baptized with The Holy Spirit (John 7:39, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:13)
4. given Eternal Life (John 6:40)
5. given God's irrevocable gifts (Rom 11:29)
6. lead by God's correction and discipline (Heb 12:5-11, 1 Cor 11:31)
7...

I'm sure these things (and a bunch more I didn't list) matter.

The people were saved out of the land of Egypt, and then they were destroyed because they did not believe. That's what Jude said. They were saved, and then they were destroyed.

 

[MarkT]

Biblically speaking, believers are given Eternal Life when they believe.

1 John 5:11 (LEB)

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.​

Paul in 1 Cor 15 (LEB) recognizes this fact as well.

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been in vain.​

He doesn't say I might become what He's promised. Nor does he allow for God's grace to become vain (to no purpose).

Those who hear and obey have eternal life.
John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

 

[chessman]

The people were saved out of the land of Egypt, and then they were destroyed because they did not believe. That's what Jude said.

I agree.

. They were saved, and then they were destroyed.

Why assume the word "destroyed" means de-saved or something? Obviously it meant they died in the desert. As I pointed out, it certainly didn't mean they were de-saved. Because Moses was one of the many "destroyed" in the desert whom God was displeased with. But if you need more proof that "destroyed" doesn't mean 'de-saved', then look to what Jesus said about Himself:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up!” 20 Then the Jews said, “This temple has been under construction forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 So when he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the scripture and the saying that Jesus had spoken.​

 

[JLB]

Biblically speaking, believers are given Eternal Life when they believe.

1 John 5:11 (LEB)

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.​

Paul in 1 Cor 15 (LEB) recognizes this fact as well.

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been in vain.​

He doesn't say I might become what He's promised. Nor does he allow for God's grace to become vain (to no purpose).

God has given us eternal life, and this life is "in" His Son.

As long as you are "in" Christ, and have the Son, then you have eternal life.

Again, a biblical definition of eternal life is provided by Jesus Christ.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You...

This is "how" we know that we know Him.

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:3-5

• Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:18-20

...that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.


Christians who are born again, and turn back to a life of sin and live that way, and think they are still saved because of false teaching, are living in deception.

Those who know Him and are in Him, have eternal life.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



JLB

 

[JLB]

Why assume the word "destroyed" means de-saved or something? Obviously it meant they died in the desert.

Someone dying of old age in the desert because God patiently waited for them to die, so the next generation could enter the promised land is not "God destroying them".

Each case should be evaluated to determine the truth.

Here's one -

31 Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly. Numbers 16:31-33

These were cast alive down into hell.


Please show me a scripture that teaches us someone who cast alive down into hell has eternal life.



JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE, They were professors, not believers.
BELIEVERS ARE SAVED PROFESSORS ARE LOST

• Luke 7:50 Acts 8:13, 21
• Acts 2:42 1 John 2:19
• John 10:27-29 Matt. 12:34-35
• John 6:37-39 John 6:64-66
• Matt. 25:10 Matt. 25:11-12
• Rom. 3:22 Matt. 23:28, 23
• Rev. 19:7-8 Matt. 22:23-23
• John 10:14; 2 Tim.2:19 Matt. 7:22-23
• John 6:47 James 2:14
• Heb. 10:39 Heb. 10:38

BELIEVERS ARE REWARDED PROFESSORS ARE CONDEMNED

• Matt. 25:19-23 Matt. 25:24-30
• Luke 12:42-44 Luke 12:45-47
• Col. 3:24 Matt. 7:22-23

Never use a doubtful or obscure passage to contradict a clear and positive one.

The case of Judas Iscariot and Peter should present no difficulty. Judas was never a believer (John 6:68-71). Perter never ceased to be one (Luke 22:31-22).

Study carefully Matt. 13:28-29 / 1 Cor. 4:5

 

[JLB]

THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE, They were professors, not believers.
BELIEVERS ARE SAVED PROFESSORS ARE LOST

• Luke 7:50 Acts 8:13, 21
• Acts 2:42 1 John 2:19
• John 10:27-29 Matt. 12:34-35
• John 6:37-39 John 6:64-66
• Matt. 25:10 Matt. 25:11-12
• Rom. 3:22 Matt. 23:28, 23
• Rev. 19:7-8 Matt. 22:23-23
• John 10:14; 2 Tim.2:19 Matt. 7:22-23
• John 6:47 James 2:14
• Heb. 10:39 Heb. 10:38

BELIEVERS ARE REWARDED PROFESSORS ARE CONDEMNED

• Matt. 25:19-23 Matt. 25:24-30
• Luke 12:42-44 Luke 12:45-47
• Col. 3:24 Matt. 7:22-23

This seems to be prevalent with the OSAS crowd.

State your opinion, then tag your opinion with scripture references, as if....

Peter's plain, and clear language leaves no doubt.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

They escaped from the world ruled by the devil, and were cleansed of it's corrupting pollutions.

They returned and were overcome by it, returning to being it's slave.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Someone dying of old age in the desert because God patiently waited for them to die, so the next generation could enter the promised land is not "God destroying them".

JLB

You should take your objection to using the word "destroyed" for what God did to them up with Yahweh, Ezekiel and/or Jude then:

Ez 20: 2 And the word of Yahweh to me, saying, 3 “Son of man, speak with the elders of Israel, and you must say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: ...
Ez 20:13 (LEB) “But in the desert the house of Israel rebelled against me; they did not walk in my statutes, and they rejected my regulations, which, if a person does them, he will live by them, and they greatly profaned my Sabbaths, and I decided to pour out my rage on them in the desert to destroy them,

​

 

[JLB]

You should take your objection to using the word "destroyed" for what God did to them up with Yahweh, Ezekiel and/or Jude then:

Ez 20: 2 And the word of Yahweh to me, saying, 3 “Son of man, speak with the elders of Israel, and you must say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: ...
Ez 20:13 (LEB) “But in the desert the house of Israel rebelled against me; they did not walk in my statutes, and they rejected my regulations, which, if a person does them, he will live by them, and they greatly profaned my Sabbaths, and I decided to pour out my rage on them in the desert to destroy them,

​

Like I said, each case should be evaluated on it's own, with the context and language.

Not attempting to treat all of the transgression the same, like trying to show that Moses was an unbeliever.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1 Corinthians 10:1-12


The language is clear...nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.

Paul uses the old testament baptism language to show us today, that just because we are baptized with water and the Spirit and into Christ, that we need to abstain from sexual immorality and such, lest we partake of the consequences, or as he says in Romans...
receives the wages of sin, which is death.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8



JLB