Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

FG

How does, "eternal life is irrevocable" (what you think he said) logically follow, "As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. Romans 11:28 (what Paul said)?

Let's please be clear. I KNOW what Paul said; "the gifts and calling of God ARE IRREVOCABLE". So let's not trivialize what Scripture SAYS by trying to insinuate what I only think Paul said.

v.29 isn't interpreted by only the previous verse. It's interpreted by whatever Paul had previously written about God's gifts in that same letter. So 1:11 is relevant: spiritual gifts. So is justification, in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. And so is eternal life, from 6:23. All these are gifts of God.

Now, this is very important: nowhere in his letter to the Romans did he write any kind of disclaimer about eternal life NOT being one of the irrevocable gifts of God.

In fact, of the 3 gifts that he did mention, ONLY eternal life was described as being "from God". Yet we clearly understand that both spiritual gifts and justification come only from God as well.

So, there it is: clear as day: spiritual gifts, and justification and eternal life are the giftS of God that are irrevocable.

What continues to puzzle me is the fact that in spite of these undebatable facts, LOS doctrine keeps demanding that Rom 11:29 only refers to the gifts that God "gave to Israel", all the while seemingly unaware of the fact that Paul NEVER ever described anything that Paul wrote about Israel as a gift of God.

So, the idea that Rom 11:29 refers only to gifts that God gave Israel is on its face just an assumption.

I don't know.

Anyone who has read the letter to the Romans can know what Paul meant by "gifts of God", since he plainly described 3 of them before he wrote 11:29.

Even the word 'irrevocable' demands we see a covenant or a contract or a promise.

Exactly! Rom 11:29 is a promise: those who HAVE eternal life cannot have it revoked (taken away).

Further, there are no verses that teach that one can give the gift away, or lose it like one can lose a coin.

Therefore God promised the call and the gifts. You could say he promised eternal life.

I do say that because that is Paul wrote.

That would be ok. But that's not saying anything about unbelief or falling into unbelief.

But it does not matter. Since the gift of eternal life is irrevocable, what would falling into unbelief have to do with the irrevocable gift of eternal life?

For it to matter, one must show Scripture that tells us plainly that falling into unbelief results in revocation of eternal life, or loss of salvation, or some such wording to indicate the one falling into unbelief is no longer saved.

I know that there are no such verses. I also know that there is a whole lot of assumption about verses that are being used to teach that idea, even though they clearly are NOT at all clear about it.

 

[FreeGrace]

The people were saved out of the land of Egypt, and then they were destroyed because they did not believe. That's what Jude said. They were saved, and then they were destroyed.

Yes, saved people were physically destroyed for their disobedience. We generally call it divine discipline unto death. 1 Jn 5:16

1 Cor 10:1-5 clearly states that they all drank from Christ. And baptized into Moses and into the sea, even though none of them got wet. Not a drop even.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who hear and obey have eternal life.
John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

The word "not obey" is a Greek word that means "not believe".
apeitheō

1) not to allow one’s self to be persuaded (meaning lack of faith)
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience

 

[FreeGrace]

God has given us eternal life, and this life is "in" His Son.

As long as you are "in" Christ, and have the Son, then you have eternal life.

Until someone can prove from Scripture that any condition will break the sealing of the Holy Spirit, there is no reason for such an assumption.

Why assume when we already know that there are no verses that warn of breaking this specific seal.

Christians who are born again, and turn back to a life of sin and live that way, and think they are still saved because of false teaching, are living in deception.

Edited for rule violations

Those who know Him and are in Him, have eternal life.

Consider these facts from Scripture:
God's gifts, one of which is eternal life, are irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29
Jesus said that those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 3:16, 10:28

For those who think "tagging" Scripture proves nothing, only have to put their cursor on the Scriptural reference and will be able to read for themselves that my statements are solidly biblical.

edited...please read the rules that are posted.

 

[FreeGrace]

Someone dying of old age in the desert because God patiently waited for them to die, so the next generation could enter the promised land is not "God destroying them".

Why assume that anyone "died of old age" in the desert? The Bible tells us plainly WHY all of the first generation of the Exodus generation died in the desert, except 2 people: Joshua and Caleb, who provided the "minority report" after scouting out the promised land and told the people to go in and take the land. But the "majority report" was given by cowards, afraid of the giants in the land and the people of Israel used the excuse of their children as the reason they wouldn't go in and take what God promised them. So God told them that ONLY their children would take the land, plus Joshua and Caleb.

We can be assured from 1 Cor 10:1-11 that no one "died of old age" in the desert.

Each case should be evaluated to determine the truth.

Sure as shootin'

Here's one -

31 Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly. Numbers 16:31-33

These were cast alive down into hell.

Where would one get "hell" from the clear context?? Why would anyone assume that the earth opened up and their bodies fell into hell??

Here is the Hebrew for the word "pit":
ׁשאל
she’ôl she’ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592 ; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates:—grave, hell, pit.

Why should anyone assume that the writer only meant hell? One really has to assume to think that the earth can open up all the way down to hell. lol

The text is very clear; the earth physically opened up, which creates a PIT, from which people fell into the pit. Then the earth closed up again. One could say the earth swallowed them up.

What literally and very clearly stated was that God caused the earth to open up, like a Florida sinkhole and the people fell into the hole. Then the earth closed up again.

When the earth opens up, as in a sinkhole, a pit is created.

Please show me a scripture that teaches us someone who cast alive down into hell has eternal life.
JLB

There aren't any. But so what? The example given failed on its face to prove anything except a serious misunderstanding of the text.

 

[FreeGrace]

This seems to be prevalent with the OSAS crowd.

State your opinion, then tag your opinion with scripture references, as if....

What is the problem of "tagging" Scripture references? There isn't any. Esp since the forum provides the service of showing the reference in full by simply placing the cursor on the reference.

Peter's plain, and clear language leaves no doubt.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

Now, all one needs to do is prove that "latter end" can only mean at the end of one's life, or even after physical death. Without such proof, it would only be an assumption.

They escaped from the world ruled by the devil, and were cleansed of it's corrupting pollutions.

They returned and were overcome by it, returning to being it's slave.

Yes, Paul was as clear about believers making a choice to be a slave to unrighteousness:
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Rom 6:16

Now, the only "problem" with this verse is to make the mistake of assuming that "death" here refers to spiritual death. Assumptions must be proved. And this one hasn't been.

 

[Mike]

Until someone can prove from Scripture that any condition will break the sealing of the Holy Spirit, there is no reason for such an assumption.

Why assume when we already know that there are no verses that warn of breaking this specific seal.

I grow weary of this tactic. The debater makes a statement for the purpose of separating the intended member from the crowd by saying "... we already know..." or "Please show us..." as though they are speaking on behalf of the other participants, leaving the other member on his own island of beliefs.

Also getting old is the claim that one's interpretation of scripture is the unquestionable standard the stands unless the other side presents irrefutable evidence otherwise. This thread is chalk full of scripture to support OSAS and non-OSAS doctrines. If we've learned anything from 42 pages of this discussion alone, but also centuries of honest disagreement, it is that this will only be reconciled in the hearts of each person. Neither side should presume that the other must play defense or offense. I know this is a tactic many debates use. They position the "fact" and force their opponent to chase that premise, but we are one body of believers in Christ. We don't need to play those games, do we?

I'm only using this quote from FreeGrace as an example of what I'm talking about, but I've seen these tactics used on both sides of the issue.

 

[Douglas Summers]

This seems to be prevalent with the OSAS crowd.

State your opinion, then tag your opinion with scripture references, as if....

I do not know what an OSAS crowd is.
They were not born again believers>

edited for content.

 

[for_his_glory]

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

His sheep do hear His voice and by faith they trust in the promise of eternal life and know that whatever Satan tries to throw against them they will never waver from their faith that is Christ Jesus.

Then you have those that have heard His voice, but when faced with trials and tribulations so grievous many end up cursing God blaspheming His Holy Spirit as they have, unaware, believed the lies of Satan that are taught from some pulpits that they would never face anything bad as their life should always be rainbows and lollipops. I've seen this happen way to many times with people I know.

 

[JLB]

I do not know what an OSAS crowd is.
They were not born again believers>

Since this is a controversial subject with many different interpretations, then we can't afford to post our opinion with a scripture reference.

Edited for content

Here's the scripture.

Here is the language that Peter uses: For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

The Holy commandment of the gospel is "Repent", for the kingdom of God is at hand.

To turn from this commandment, is to go back and serve the one you turned away from, which is Satan.

Having known the way of righteousness, and turned back is very clear.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, Paul was as clear about believers making a choice to be a slave to unrighteousness:
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Rom 6:16

Now, the only "problem" with this verse is to make the mistake of assuming that "death" here refers to spiritual death. Assumptions must be proved. And this one hasn't been.

It's called the law of sin and death.


16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. Romans 6:20

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


The context of Romans 6:23 is contrasting eternal life and eternal death, not eternal life and physical death.

The context proves the meaning of Paul's reference to death as he uses this word over and over to show the "wages" of a life of practicing sin.

James breaks it down for us as well.

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15

The wages of sin is [eternal] death, but the give of God [meaning we can not work to earn] is eternal life "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sin is unrighteousness. The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

It's called the law of sin and death.

The following verses don't speak of "law". Which verse or verses speak of the "law of sin and death"?

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. Romans 6:20

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


The context of Romans 6:23 is contrasting eternal life and eternal death, not eternal life and physical death.

How does one link 6:23 to 6:16? What makes them have to mean the same thing?

The context proves the meaning of Paul's reference to death as he uses this word over and over to show the "wages" of a life of practicing sin.

I don't think Paul meant a "life of practicing sin", since he never mentioned those words. We know from Gen 2 that just 1 sin resulted in immediatee (on that day) death. Yet, we also know that Adam lived for hundreds of years after "that day".

 

[JLB]

How does one link 6:23 to 6:16? What makes them have to mean the same thing?

Context, as well as the other scriptures in the bible that say the same thing.

I gave you one example from James.

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

When Paul says the phrase the law of sin and death, it most certainly refers to spiritual death, and that eternal death is associated with sin.

Now if you want to teach people that a person falls over physically dead if they sin, that is on you.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I don't think Paul meant a "life of practicing sin", since he never mentioned those words. We know from Gen 2 that just 1 sin resulted in immediatee (on that day) death. Yet, we also know that Adam lived for hundreds of years after "that day".

He used the word "wages".

"Wages" refers to payment from working at something, by employing the will and mind and body to accomplish a desired task.


Thanks for making my point that death is spiritual "eternal" death and not physical in Romans 6.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The following verses don't speak of "law". Which verse or verses speak of the "law of sin and death"?

Death is associated with sin, being the result of sin.

Are you trying to say a person falls over dead, if they sin?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Context, as well as the other scriptures in the bible that say the same thing.

I gave you one example from James.

I have also given different Scriptures that say the same thing.

For example,
Jesus said that those who believe WILL NEVER PERISH:
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Jn 3:16

He said the same thing in Jn 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

How can one who has believed end up in the lake of fire since Jesus said they will never perish?

 

[FreeGrace]

He used the word "wages".

"Wages" refers to payment from working at something, by employing the will and mind and body to accomplish a desired task.


Thanks for making my point that death is spiritual "eternal" death and not physical in Romans 6.
JLB

I have no problem with Rom 6:23 referring to spiritual death, but it hasn't been proven that 6:16 is spiritual death. In fact, 6:16 represents the dynamics of the Christian life and the struggle between the sinful nature with the new nature. So the "death" refers to loss of fellowship when we obey our sinful nature.

If 'death' in 6:16 refers to spiritual death, it would seem that EVERY TIME someone sinned, they would die spiritually? How is that possible?

Paul taught that before faith in Christ, we are all spiritually dead in Eph 2:1 - And you were dead in your trespasses and sins. Do you agree that this refers to spiritual death, or does it mean some other kind of death?

So, after faith in Christ, we are said to be "alive with Him" in Eph 2:5 - even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

So, is your view that every time a believer, who has been made alive with Christ, sins, they die spiritually?

If that is true, then how does one who has already been made alive and has been given eternal life, become alive again?

Does God make alive only a certain number of times, or will He make alive any number of times?

And, where is all this taught in Scripture?

 

[FreeGrace]

Death is associated with sin, being the result of sin.

Are you trying to say a person falls over dead, if they sin?JLB

I wasn't trying to say anything. I asked this question:
"The following verses don't speak of "law". Which verse or verses speak of the "law of sin and death"?"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus said that those who believe WILL NEVER PERISH:
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Jn 3:16

He said the same thing in Jn 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

How can one who has believed end up in the lake of fire since Jesus said they will never perish?

They can end up in the lake of fire because the condition for the promise is that one believe, now, present, tense, not stop believing as OSAS insists one can do and still have the promises. 'Believes' in John 3:16 is in the present tense: Whoever presently believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Note that 'have' in 'have eternal life' is in the subjunctive mood. That means this:

"The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. " From: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/3/1/t_conc_1000016
​

From the context, it is continued believing that determines the possibility and potential of presently having eternal life. But OSAS is portraying it as if the 'having' is settled and can not be reversed and is not conditional on anything whatsoever now that it is already happened. But we can easily see that is not true to the Greek mood of the word 'have'.

 

[JLB]

I have no problem with Rom 6:23 referring to spiritual death, but it hasn't been proven that 6:16 is spiritual death. In fact, 6:16 represents the dynamics of the Christian life and the struggle between the sinful nature with the new nature. So the "death" refers to loss of fellowship when we obey our sinful nature.

If 'death' in 6:16 refers to spiritual death, it would seem that EVERY TIME someone sinned, they would die spiritually? How is that possible?

Please show me from the scriptures and the context, where your "idea" of someone dying EVERY TIME they sin.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:12-16


I don't find that Paul wrote that we die a spiritual death, every time we sin, but rather if we become a slave to sin again, then we are back under it's dominion to live once again as a sinner who is bound to sin, in which the end result is eternal death.


James says this in his letter -
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15

Sin, when it is full grown, in which it has fully matured, in the end it brings for death.

This denotes a process. A process by which the person is enticed by his own desire, a desire from sin dwelling in his flesh, in which this desire once it goes through the process and fully conceives it gives birth, that is to say, it manifest's [it becomes] as an actual "deed".

Then this deed [sin] when practiced over and over, gains a foothold and become's stronger and stronger, as being more and more mature, as a natural child grows stronger and stronger and more mature, through all the stages of growth, until finally the person has become a "slave" to this particular sin, and obeys it [rather than the Spirit within] because this sin has overcome them and become it's master, and the person can not escape and dies in this condition and is lost for eternity. The death being eternal death.

This is a process, and does not "just happen", but the person employs their will and effort to do what this sinful desire demands, rather than putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


For He has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 2 Peter 1:3



JLB