Eternal security or conditional security?

[JLB]

No, it doesn't say that believing means overcoming. The one who overcomes does so because of his faith, which the Bible tells us as what actually overcomes the world. 1 Jn 5:4 says that.
"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith."

What is "our faith"? Because it is a NOUN, and NOT an action, it refers to what we believe. Which is where all power is.

You're trying to make a noun act like a verb. But it isn't and doesn't.

No faith - No overcome

No overcome - No book of life.

Question: Who is he that overcomes?
Answer: he who believes...

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:4-5


Those who believe for a while, are saved for a while.
Those who believe for a while, overcome for a while.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

... be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; Revelation 3:5

“Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:13-14


JLB

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Uh, no one does teach that. But the teaching of "no matter what" was taught by Paul, very clearly:
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8

Plain.as.day. "nor things to come". That covers anything that may occur. Or, 'no matter what'."

What do your questions have to do with Rom 8:38 or 39? Please explain. [edited]

Those cast into the lake of fire didn't have eternal life. Can you show me ANY verse that teaches that one can lose eternal life, which is a gift of God. And we know that there are no verses about any gifts of God that are revocable, right?

[edited]

Will being in hell separate us from the love of God?

The answer is no, even being in hell will not separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

Because God loves us, this will not prevent us from going to hell... for God so loved the world...

JLB

 

[reba]

FreeGrace

We all read the Scriptures the way we do... I can, and do read the passages OSAS posts.. IMO they are countered by the passages of LOS and vice versa ... Nothing in the 4-5 years here that i have read, changes my mind/heart except to strengthen my belief that we can refuse HIs Grace and Mercy. Mankind can refuse the wonderful Sacrifice He is..

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who believe for a while, are saved for a while.
Those who believe for a while, overcome for a while.

This has not been proven from Scripture. edited by Mike - interpretation does not mean fact.

The Bible says that God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
The Bible says that eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
The Bible NEVER says that any of God's gifts are revocable.
Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

Jesus says those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28
The Bible NEVER says that eternal life can be revoked, taken away, or given away.

The Bible teaches eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Will being in hell separate us from the love of God?

This question is irrelevant, since the free gift of eternal life is irrevocable, and those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

The ONLY ones who will be in the lake of fire never received eternal life.

The answer is no, even being in hell will not separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

The question remains irrelevant, because of the facts above.

Because God loves us, this will not prevent us from going to hell... for God so loved the world...
JLB

Error. Consider the verse:
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Jn 3:16

Plain as day. Those who believe HAVE eternal life (Jesus said the same thing in Jn 5:24), and those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in Jn 10:28.

I don't know how it could be said any more clear than that.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace

We all read the Scriptures the way we do... I can, and do read the passages OSAS posts.. IMO they are countered by the passages of LOS and vice versa ...

I don't understand how one set of verses can "counter" any other set. Wouldn't that mean that the Bible has contradicted itself? edited by Mike - ad hominem argument

Nothing in the 4-5 years here that i have read, changes my mind/heart except to strengthen my belief that we can refuse HIs Grace and Mercy.

I've never said that we can't do that. But what I've yet to see from Scripture is any clearly worded verse that teaches that any believer who refuses His grace and mercy loses salvation. Is there any verse that does teach that?

Mankind can refuse the wonderful Sacrifice He is..

Those who never believed are doing that all the time. And they will end up in the lake of fire, for never receiving the free gift of eternal life.

Those who have received eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jesus said so. John 10:28 teaches eternal security and OSAS.

 

[JLB]

This question is irrelevant, since the free gift of eternal life is irrevelant, and those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

The ONLY ones who will be in the lake of fire never received eternal life.

Sorry, you will have to show the scriptures that substantiate your "claim".

The question remains irrelevant, because of the facts above.

Of course it is relevant to this discussion.

God loves the world, as He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

God loves the world.

Unfortunately some in the world will not believe, and therefore they will perish.

Though these perish in the everlasting fires of hell, God still loves them.

The fact that God loves a person, does not prevent a person from going to hell.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Those who believe HAVE eternal life

Yes those who believe have eternal life.

Those who believe for a while have eternal life for a while.

Eternal life is relationship with God.

Those who know God for a while, have eternal life for a while.

Those who have the Son have life.

Those who no longer have the Son, no longer have life.

11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13

 

[chessman]

In your hypothetical situation, if the REASON he did that was because he changed his mind about trusting in Christ then, yes, he is lost.

Which of course would mean Jesus said something that was untrue (hypothetically of course). I reject that possibility as I believe you do too. But I don't see any substantial difference in that hypothetical than the one you postulate concerning others changing their minds about trusting in Christ. Except for the available time and worldly influences applying pressures on a believer to 'change his/her mind'.

Good thing we are given A Helper that keeps us in His hands.

John 14:16-17 (LEB) And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you. ​

John 17:12, 20-21 When I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given to me, and guarded them, and none of them has perished except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture would be fulfilled. ... “And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me. ​

I find it completely unreasonable for OSAS to make some kind of claim that since Jesus prophesied that the thief would be with him in Paradise today that means anybody and everybody that gets saved is saved no matter what.

I find it humanly unreasonable for all believers to be one. But for God to do it.,, child's play.

I will note the Prodigal Son came home....

Amen! And came back home to a father still in love with him. Which I find humanly unreasonable. But for God and His love ... child's play.

 

[Mike]

This is not due to the final post, but I do need to close this for clean up and to give everyone time for pause. Way too much personal content. We'll open it up in a while.

 

[Mike]

I'm going to open this up again with the hope that everyone will stop with the personal jabs and comments. Clearly, this is an emotional topic, but we should rise above the urge to make it personal. Both sides have scripture that they interpret to form their belief. Please respect the person who has an honest interpretation that differs from yours. Thank you.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry, you will have to show the scriptures that substantiate your "claim".

I've done that.

God loves the world, as He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

God loves the world.

Unfortunately some in the world will not believe, and therefore they will perish.

Because they NEVER believed, and therefore, never received eternal life.

Though these perish in the everlasting fires of hell, God still loves them.

The fact that God loves a person, does not prevent a person from going to hell.
JLB

What prevents a person from ever going to hell is having believed in Christ and receiving eternal life.

Jesus promises that those He gives eternal life to (believers) WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28

If one has received eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. Simple as that. Jesus said so.

And there are no verses that indicate that eternal life can be removed or taken away, or given away, or any other way to communicate loss of eternal life.

Therefore, once saved, they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Or, OSWNP.

 

[reba]

↑@FreeGrace
I don't understand how one set of verses can "counter" any other set. Wouldn't that mean that the Bible has contradicted itself? No verse counters any other verse. I believe that is impossible, because I believe that God is perfect. And perfection cannot be contradicted.

The way you choose to read my words i can see your understanding of them which is not mine..
Very simple these are the type of verses i was referring too

1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I've never said that we can't do that. But what I've yet to see from Scripture is any clearly worded verse that teaches that any believer who refuses His grace and mercy loses salvation. Is there any verse that does teach that?

The whole of the Bible teaches just that .. cherry picked verses will teach us what we choose them too.

Those who never believed are doing that all the time. And they will end up in the lake of fire, for never receiving the free gift of eternal life.

Those who have received eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jesus said so. John 10:28 teaches eternal security and OSAS.

This is a slightly different way of saying "Well s/he was just never really saved in the first place".. Which in my mind is a copout..

 

[JLB]

I've done that.

No you just stated your opinion, then tagged it with a scripture reference as if your opinion is scripture.

Because they NEVER believed, and therefore, never received eternal life.

Or they believed for a while, then no longer believed.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

What prevents a person from ever going to hell is having believed in Christ and receiving eternal life.

What prevents a person from going to hell is receiving the salvation of the soul at the end of their faith.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

It's at the revelation of Jesus Christ, that we will receive the salvation of our soul.

There will be those who are very surprised when Jesus returns and we stand before Him on the Day of Judgement.

Until that Day when you hear these words from Him... Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

It is those who endure to the end that are saved. Matthew 24:13



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The way you choose to read my words i can see your understanding of them which is not mine..
Very simple these are the type of verses i was referring too

1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

OK, this was helpful; giving a clear example of what was meant. Thanks.

1:8 is a straight forward verse stating that everyone sins. Those who claim sinless perfection have deceived themselves.

3:9 must be understood in the sense of knowing which nature John was speaking about. Being born again, all believers have 2 natures: the original human sin nature, which still sins, and the new born again nature, which cannot sin. While the Bible doesn't specifically say so, I believe the Holy Spirit resides in our new nature.

So, John is saying that from our born again nature (whosoever is born of God) we cannot sin.

When we are filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16), we cannot sin.

But, when we grieve the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5:18), we ARE sinning.

Is there anything here that I've missed?

The whole of the Bible teaches just that .. cherry picked verses will teach us what we choose them too.

Why would one think that I have cherry-picked verses?

I said this:
"Those who never believed are doing that all the time. And they will end up in the lake of fire, for never receiving the free gift of eternal life.

Those who have received eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jesus said so. John 10:28 teaches eternal security and OSAS."

This is a slightly different way of saying "Well s/he was just never really saved in the first place".. Which in my mind is a copout..

I'm not sure which statement above is being referred to here. My first statement is about those who never believed, so, of course, they were never saved in the first place.

The second statement is what Jesus said about those who received eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

No you just stated your opinion, then tagged it with a scripture reference as if your opinion is scripture.

I cannot imagine any problem with citing a Scripture. Just put the mouse over the verse and the whole verse will be shown. And my statement is the same as the tagged verse.

Or they believed for a while, then no longer believed.

But so what? Where does the Bible SAY that that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved?

That is only an assumption, with no support or evidence from Scripture.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

The context is ONLY about the 7 year period called the Tribulation. It's NOT a blanket statement for all of humanity.

What prevents a person from going to hell is receiving the salvation of the soul at the end of their faith.

I'm happy to spell it out for anyone.

Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life, won't come into judgment but has passed from death to life.
Jn 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS passed out of death into life.

Then, Jesus said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.
Jn 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Please explain how one who has eternal life can end up in the lake of fire.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

It's at the revelation of Jesus Christ, that we will receive the salvation of our soul.

The "end of our faith" doesn't mean the end of time. Why would one think that?

This is the Greek word for "end": kolumbaō

1) to care for, take care of, provide for
2) to take up or carry away in order to care for and preserve
3) to carry away, bear off
4) to carry, bear, bring to, to carry away for one’s self, to carry off what is one’s own, to bring back
4a) to receive, obtain: the promised blessing
4b) to receive what was previously one’s own, to get back, receive back, recover

There is no indication here about end of time. Those who HAVE BELIEVED HAVE RECEIVED their salvation.

I've just shown the verse that SAYS SO.

 

[JLB]

And my statement is the same as the tagged verse.

No sir, that's just it, your statement is most certainly not the same as the tagged verse.

But so what? Where does the Bible SAY that that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved?

That is only an assumption, with no support or evidence from Scripture.

So you are teaching that a person does not have to believe in Jesus Christ, but they are saved anyway?

edited by Mike

The context is ONLY about the 7 year period called the Tribulation. It's NOT a blanket statement for all of humanity.

The context includes all of humanity that are alive during the tribulation, and is an example of what Jesus taught us in the parable of the sower, concerning falling away from Him under persecution.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Believe = saved
Believe for a while = saved for a while.


What more must a person do to be saved, other than believe?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

No sir, that's just it, your statement is most certainly not the same as the tagged verse.

Well, that's what needs to be proven. Please proceed.

So you are teaching that a person does not have to believe in Jesus Christ, but they are saved anyway?

No. I say what the Bible says. Those who have received eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. That's what Jesus said: "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." Jn 10:28

edited by Mike - response to deleted text

The context includes all of humanity that are alive during the tribulation, and is an example of what Jesus taught us in the parable of the sower, concerning falling away from Him under persecution.

Matt 24 has nothing to do with the parable of the soils. But anyone is free to think that.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Where did Jesus say that they lost salvation? I seem to have missed any words to that intent.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21

OK, I see. You've linked different context that contain the same phrase in both. But what's the point?

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Context indicates physical delivery from the tribulation.

Believe = saved
Believe for a while = saved for a while.

Where should I look in Scripture for ANY verse that says "believe for a while=saved for a while"????

Repeating an opinion without ANY evidence from Scripture doesn't make the opinion true.

What more must a person do to be saved, other than believe?

Paul actually answered this exact question.
30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

The answer is "nothing more".

 

[Douglas Summers]

Will being in hell separate us from the love of God?

The answer is no, even being in hell will not separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

Because God loves us, this will not prevent us from going to hell... for God so loved the world...

God hates them. The Scriptures in (Rom. 8:28-39) is to them He has called. God hates evil man that have destroyed His perfect creation to the point he is going to destroy man, for mans thoughts are always evil to the imagination of his mind, He also hates liars. (Proverbs 6:17-19)

 

[JLB]

Well, that's what needs to be proven. Please proceed.

That's why you have proven nothing, until you post the scripture that teaches what your opinion states.

No. I say what the Bible says. Those who have received eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. That's what Jesus said: "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." Jn 10:28

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:26-29

Key Phrase: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Eternal life is knowing Him.

Knowing Him is the biblical definition of eternal life.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

This statement was made about His disciples, but can apply to those who qualify... ie; those who -
...hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Now here is the qualification of knowing Him... so that we are clear about the biblical qualifications of knowing Him. Anyone can say, "Oh I know Him", so I'm saved...

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

• Eternal life is knowing Him. John 17:3
• Knowing Him is keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4

A person can indeed believe and be saved. However if they turn back to their formal lifestyle of serving the devil, and practicing the works of the flesh, then as Peter said...it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it...

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21



JLB