Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

No, the 'having' of eternal life is in the subjunctive mood. That means that action--the action of 'having' eternal life--may or may not have happened and is conditioned on circumstances.

Specifically, the ONLY condition is to believe. That's the point of Jn 3:16.

That means OSAS misuses 'have' eternal life in John 3:16 when it insists the 'having' is done and said and irreversible.

Not at all.

In fact, it supports eternal security. Once belief, always saved.

Because, Jesus said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. To "never perish" means to live eternally. That is eternal security.

Here's what the subjunctive mood means:

"The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." (https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/3/1/t_conc_1000016 bold mine)
​

The 'action' spoken of in the passage has to be the believing (John 3:16 NASB).

Exactly!! That's the ONLY condition for having eternal life. Those who believe HAVE it.

But, there are no verses that teach the opposite: that if one ceases to believe, they cease to have it.

Or, if I'm wrong about that, what verse teaches that eternal life ceases if one ceases to believe?

 

[chessman]

That's just it, the word "de-save" is not found in the bible.

Sure it is. It's just not translated from the Greek into the English as de-saved. The reason being that it's obvious that de-salvation is NOT what is meant by the word given the context. But my point is that Jesus, Paul, John and everyone else had a Greek word that could have been used to describe someone becoming de-saved should they have chosen to us it. They just never did use it that way.

Saved = 4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).

So the negation would be a-sṓzō,

http://biblehub.com/greek/810.htm

It has three occurrences (none of which means to lose your salvation given the context of these verses):
Eph 5:18, Titus 1:6 , 1 Peter 4:4

The word is translated as dissipation or debauchery (resulting from drunkenness) into the English.

 

[gr8grace3]

No, the 'having' of eternal life is in the subjunctive mood. That means that action--the action of 'having' eternal life--may or may not have happened and is conditioned on circumstances. That means OSAS misuses 'have' eternal life in John 3:16 when it insists the 'having' is done and said and irreversible.


Here's what the subjunctive mood means:

"The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." (https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/3/1/t_conc_1000016 bold mine)
​

The 'action' spoken of in the passage has to be the believing (John 3:16 NASB). That's the only action described that "may or may not occur". The giving of Christ is in the aorist tense meaning it's already done as a historical fact. The action that is in question, and which makes the having of eternal life in question is the present action of believing. But OSAS claims once you believe in the past you have eternal life no matter what--even if you stop believing in the present.

Do you know what a purpose clause is? John 3:16 is not stating the reality nor the unreality of a specific individual having eternal life. John 3:16 is stating the purpose God sent His Son to us.

The purpose clause REQUIRES it to be in the subjunctive mood.........God sent His Son for the purpose/possibility/potential of having eternal life. John 3:16 is not describing a specific individual and their having or not having eternal life.

It presently stands that whosoever believes will have eternal life. Gods purpose and plan presently stands for all...........which is why we see "believe" in the present tense and we see the aorist tense in Acts 16:31.

Gods purpose presently stands for all( John 3:16) and when the specific individual believes( Acts 16:31) they are given eternal life.

 

[JLB]

Specifically, the ONLY condition is to believe. That's the point of Jn 3:16.

That also the point in Luke 8:13

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

That also the point in Luke 8:13

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.
JLB

But there are no words that communicate that believing only for a while results in only being saved for a while.

[edited]

I know that Jesus said that those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH.
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Jn 3:16
"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." J n 10:28

I know that those who believe HAVE eternal life presently. Jn 5:24, 6:47
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Jn 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life." Jn 6:47

Add to these verses the fact that there are NO verses that state that those who cease to believe lose eternal life.

Further, I know that eternal life one of the gifts of God.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:23

And I know that the gifts of God are irrevocable.
"for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Rom 11:29

Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable, because Paul NEVER excluded eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

In fact, no writer of Scripture ever excluded eternal life or salvation from God's irrevocable gifts.

These facts persuade me to believe that my salvation is eternally secure, regardless of how badly I may behave.

But, because I also know about God's hand of divine discipline, which can be very severe, will be applied to every child of God who does so.

So I reject the claim that OSAS leads to sinful living. [edited]

Consider this verse:
"because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.” Heb 12:6

What does "punish" look like for those He accepts as a son?

 

[Sinthesis]

Hi Sinthesis,
Do you think man can love one another by command? Man can understand that , "love your neighbor as yourself," because what suffers a man that grieves himself in his soul is able to treat others that go through the same because he has gone through it. And knowing the trial that he himself went through is able to help his neighbor by doing what was needed to relieve his own grief, he now knows what his neighbor needs to overcome and comfort his neighbor.
But in the command to love your brother (John 13:34) is a new commandment, to love your brother as Christ has loved you. It is new because it comes by regeneration. Regeneration comes by seeing ourselves for what we are and our Adamic nature, and in that sorrow we then feels Gods grace undeserved. You must be born again. And the new commandment is by the love that I (Christ) have loved you. So by that Spirit of Grace that we now know that fills our heart and soul, let it manifest to your brothers needs and helps.
Brother here is not the world of man, though we are to broadcast that love to the world, But brother in this instance is the Body of Christ, born again believers, who share the Spirit of Christ as one body and His trials as we comfort one another (John 15:9-25) That is missing for the most part on this forum because very little fellowship with Christ and His brethren...His body.

Luk 6:27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 - Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 - And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thycoat also.
Luk 6:30 - Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 - And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 - For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 - And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 - And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 - But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 - Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.​

 

[Sinthesis]

The Gospel that John was sent to preach -

In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”
Matthew 3:1-2


The Gospel Jesus preached -

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17


What is the command in this statement?

Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.




JLB

So what is your definition of 'repent'?

 

[chessman]

Numbers 16:30,33
Pit = Hell
Hell [Sheol] is the place where the devil and his angels will be sent when Jesus returns

Not that it matters with respect to the Jude 1:5 passage (which was brought into the conversation, I suppose, as another so called 'de-salvation' passage), but if the Pit = Hell = Sheol in Numbers 16, then why does God call the pit "creating something new"? I thought Sheol was the place of the dead long before this pit event.

Num 16:30 (LEB) But if Yahweh creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up...

​

 

[gr8grace3]

So I reject the claim that OSAS leads to sinful living.

Same here Brother. The deeper the believer grows in Grace.............the less we sin. Unreasonable to our carnal minds, but reasonable to our spiritual minds.

But if we keep our minds on sin and "fighting" sin or sin less for salvation...........we sin more.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In fact, it supports eternal security. Once belief, always saved.

Because, Jesus said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. To "never perish" means to live eternally. That is eternal security.

Jesus said that those who will never perish and to whom he gives eternal life believe now, present tense.
Why does OSAS ignore this fact? Jesus himself said those who have eternal life and will never perish presently believe. Why does OSAS just gloss over and ignore this fact and contradict Jesus' own words that say the believing (present tense) are the one's who have eternal life, and who will never perish.

How is it that a personal interpretation of other scriptures makes it so the tense of 'believe' is no longer present tense? It's not reasonable to defend OSAS doctrine using interpretations of scripture that defy the tense of a verb in another passage of scripture. That's called 'not rightly dividing the word of God'.

 

[MarkT]

The point I made was that the word "destruction" doesn't mean de-salvation.

It sure doesn't mean eternal life!

 

[JLB]

Sure it is. It's just not translated from the Greek into the English as de-saved. The reason being that it's obvious that de-salvation is NOT what is meant by the word given the context. But my point is that Jesus, Paul, John and everyone else had a Greek word that could have been used to describe someone becoming de-saved should they have chosen to us it. They just never did use it that way.

They plainly warned ... will not inherit the kingdom. Not, will not inherit rewards... but will not inherit the kingdom of God itself.

Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, will inherit what kingdom?

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


They plainly warned ... do not be partakers of God's wrath with them.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

Very plainly warned of partaking of God's wrath, which is the result of not inheriting God's kingdom.

These have no portion in God's kingdom. Their portion, their inheritance, is not in God's kingdom, but rather, it's in the kingdom of Satan, whom these people chose to obey, after declaring that Jesus was their Lord, and would obey Him.


They plainly warned ... if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20


These folks were plainly warned that after they had been set free from the dominion of darkness, and had escaped the corrupting pollutions of that kingdom, and were cleansed and forgiven of their sins, if they went back and were entangled again and overcome, being brought back into bondage to that kingdom, then at the end their punishment would be far worse than if they had never known the way of righteousness... For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”


Plain and clear warnings to Christians.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Not that it matters with respect to the Jude 1:5 passage (which was brought into the conversation, I suppose, as another so called 'de-salvation' passage), but if the Pit = Hell = Sheol in Numbers 16, then why does God call the pit "creating something new"? I thought Sheol was the place of the dead long before this pit event.

Num 16:30 (LEB) But if Yahweh creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up...

​

then why does God call the pit "creating something new"?

Call the pit "something new"??? Mockery edited out


The something new was the earth opening up and them going down into hell alive.

But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”

Not that it matters with respect to the Jude 1:5 passage (which was brought into the conversation, I suppose, as another so called 'de-salvation' passage

De-salvation is a man made word, and is not found in the bible.

Being sentenced to the everlasting fires of hell, is found in the scriptures.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41


Sheol is hell.

The word there for Sheol in the Septuagint is Hades,

Hades is hell.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So what is your definition of 'repent'?

Concerning the Gospel it means to turn to God.

Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God. Acts 15:19

If you need to turn to God, then by default you need to turn away from Satan as your Lord.

This is done by confessing Jesus as Lord.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus said that those who will never perish and to whom he gives eternal life believe now, present tense.

Why does OSAS ignore this fact? Jesus himself said those who have eternal life and will never perish presently believe.

The present tense means "in the present, with respect to the writer". It does NOT mean "must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, or have eternal life".

So, Jesus meant that those who have eternal life will never perish in Jn 10:28. I think we both will agree with that.

However, the problem with LOS doctrine is that there are no verses that outright in plain language warn of one's eternal life being taken away or lost. I will not assume that it can be. I will accept any verse that does say that eternal life can be lost. However, if such as verse exists, then it will contradict the fact what Paul said about God's gifts. First, he described both justification and eternal life as gifts of God. Then he said that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So how could any verse say that eternal life is revocable when Paul says that eternal life is a gift of God and that God's gifts are irrevocable??

Why does OSAS just gloss over and ignore this fact and contradict Jesus' own words that say the believing (present tense) are the one's who have eternal life, and who will never perish.

I don't believe OSAS has either glossed over or ignored Jesus' words. I do believe that LOS has done that.

How is it that a personal interpretation of other scriptures makes it so the tense of 'believe' is no longer present tense?

I think the "present tense" has been abused by LOS. I will quote from "Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics" by Dan Wallace, under "Introduction: The Basic Meaning" on page 514:
With reference to aspect, the present tense is internal (that is, it p[rotrays the actions from the inside of the event, without special regard for beginning or end), but it makes no comment as to fulfillment (or completion). The present tense's portrayal of an event (focuses on its development or progress and sees the occurrence in regard to its internal make-up, without beginning or end in view." It is sometimes called progressive: It "basically represents an activity as in process (or in progress)."

So, what this all means is that the present tense does not mean continuous action into the future. Certainly does NOT support the notion that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved or have eternal life.

When one believes they then HAVE eternal life. This is supported by John 5:24 and 10:28.

There are no verses that teach that one can lose eternal life.

In fact, the Bible says that eternal life is a gift of God, AND that God's gifts are irrevocable.

It's not reasonable to defend OSAS doctrine using interpretations of scripture that defy the tense of a verb in another passage of scripture. That's called 'not rightly dividing the word of God'.

OSAS does not "defy" any tense of Scripture. LOS abuses the present tense.

 

[FreeGrace]

They plainly warned ... will not inherit the kingdom. Not, will not inherit rewards... but will not inherit the kingdom of God itself.

Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, will inherit what kingdom?

The Bible doesn't give alternatives. To say one will NOT inherit the kingdom (meaning the kingdom of God), means there will be NO kingdom inherited. Why assume that if one won't inherit God's kingdom, he'll inherit some other kingdom? Does the Bible tell us that anyone inherits any other kind of kingdom? Of course not.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

Here it is; plain as day. "no (sinful person) has any inheritance in the kingdom". This passage is directly parallel to the other 2 passages about "will not inherit the kingdom". They all mean the same thing, being parallel.

To "have no inheritance" means just that. It does NOT mean "will not get into the kingdom". Neither does "will not inherit the kingdom" mean "will not get into the kingdom".

Very plainly warned of partaking of God's wrath, which is the result of not inheriting God's kingdom.

These have no portion in God's kingdom. Their portion, their inheritance, is not in God's kingdom, but rather, it's in the kingdom of Satan, whom these people chose to obey, after declaring that Jesus was their Lord, and would obey Him.

I do not deal in suppositions, assumptions or unsubstantiated opinions.

 

[FreeGrace]

Call the pit "something new"??? Mockery edited out
The something new was the earth opening up and them going down into hell alive.

But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”

The text is quite clear: The Lord created a new pit. He did so by "opens up the earth" so it can swallow people who fall into the pit.

De-salvation is a man made word, and is not found in the bible.

So is "loss of salvation" and "loss of eternal life".

Being sentenced to the everlasting fires of hell, is found in the scriptures.

Yep, for those who have not believed. Those who have believed HAVE eternal life and will never perish.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Luk 6:27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 - Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 - And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thycoat also.
Luk 6:30 - Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 - And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 - For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 - And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 - And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 - But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 - Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.​

Yes, I know the Scriptures, but to follow them as written is a command to do so. You can not command some one to love. Love comes by a change in heart and Spirit. To love like Christ is to put someones life above your own with contentment. Not content that you obeyed a verbal command, but by the necessity of the change by a new birth, born of the Spirit of Christ. Not by might,(acts of the flesh) but by the Spirit, It is called, DYING TO SELF, AND ALIVE IN CHRIST.

When you see those who have much and waste it in frivolous things, while you have little and have to scrape together every week to eat and pay rent and can barely afford the necessities to live, and have no animosity or feel sorry for yourself but satisfied with with the peace of God (this is love)

When you work hard and are an accomplished and faithful employee, but those who have been slackers are rewarded with raises and higher positions of authority over you who were not dependable employees, but it does not bother you because you are satisfied in Christ? That is dying to self but alive in Christ.

When you are called and taught by the Spirit of the Lord, and you witness to the world, but are rejected by false teachers, and you are grieved in your heart by their puffed up knowledge, who will be judged by the Lord with (away from me, for I know you not) and yet it angers your Spirit that they draw others away from the Truth to a Judgment of condemnation, That is being a faithful servant, for the Truth of God and the joy of it that you wish their repentance and still grieve for their sole.

Here is the answer to the question on, can a man be commanded to love (1 Corinthians Chapter 13). Please read it to understand.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[MarkT]

Yes, saved people were physically destroyed for their disobedience. We generally call it divine discipline unto death. 1 Jn 5:16

1 Cor 10:1-5 clearly states that they all drank from Christ. And baptized into Moses and into the sea, even though none of them got wet. Not a drop even.

They were destroyed FG. Destroyed doesn't mean disciplined. When something is destroyed, it generally means it can not ever be recovered or put back together. Living things were destroyed in the flood. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire. Destroyed is the end of something. The people of Israel were destroyed as a people except for Moses and Caleb and Joshua.

So first God saved them and then later he destroyed them. God can destroy saved people.

The saved person is no longer saved.

 

[MarkT]

Generally we save something if it serves a purpose. It's the same way with God. God made us for his purpose. If we don't serve him he will cast us out. Mt. 25:14-30

If you don't believe you have to do these things (keep his commandments) because they are works, and you are saved by faith alone, then James says, 'a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Faith apart from works is dead.' James 2: 24-26.

Matthew 7:21
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.