Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. Philippians 3:17-19

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; Romans 8:5-7
JLB

Rightly dividing the Word of Truth from 2 Tim 2:15 provides the discernment to understand that the Bible uses the word "death" to indicate loss of fellowship with God through sin.

When fellowship "dies" through sin, communication is lost. The Bible makes that point.
Psa 66:18 - If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;

When the Lord is not listening, there is no communication. Fellowship is at that point lost. Dead. Gone.

 

[JLB]

This kind of comment has been said often about the words "eternal life" not appearing in Rom 11:29 as some kind of argument against the claim that eternal life is irrevocable.

The context dictates what is being said.

Does broken off pertain to being removed from Christ [eternal life] in Romans 11?

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:20-22

Your doctrine only seems to view the part you want to see, while dismissing the other truth's as meaning "something else".

Eternal life is relationship with Jesus Christ, as a branch is connected in relationship to the Vine it depends on for life.

This is the vital lesson taught by the Lord Himself.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Nowhere is it taught that we can be "disconnected" from Jesus Christ and still have eternal life, as He is the source for our life.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

Those who are in Christ, must continue to remain in Him, as no one who is apart from, disconnected from, removed from, departed from, fallen away from, or turned away from Him, has eternal life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Rightly dividing the Word of Truth from 2 Tim 2:15 provides the discernment to understand that the Bible uses the word "death" to indicate loss of fellowship with God through sin.

When fellowship "dies" through sin, communication is lost. The Bible makes that point.
Psa 66:18 - If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;

When the Lord is not listening, there is no communication. Fellowship is at that point lost. Dead. Gone.

When relationship is severed then the eternal life is severed, and they are gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The prodigal son is a perfect lesson in this teaching, as the son was lost, until he returned to his father in repentance.

Lost = Hell
Found = Saved from hell.

...for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry. Luke 15:24


The Context: -

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7


JLB

 

[reba]

Is eternal life fellow ship with God?

 

[MarkT]

What was "destroyed" was their physical bodies, in the desert. And, yes, God's discipline can and does include physical death, per 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.


Any word in Scripture must be interpreted by context. For example,
"He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. Rom 4:19
"Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. Heb 11:12


All these examples are examples of physical death. Thanks for making my point.


Yes, God can call saved people home to heaven through divine discipline.


This is an assumption which is not supported from Scripture.

You're missing the point. The LORD saved them out of bondage in Egypt. He showed them signs and wonders. So what did the people do? They made a golden calf and worshipped it. Is Jude giving us a history lesson? No. Jude said, 'he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.' So they died a physical death. So what? The point is he destroyed those who did not believe. What about the soul? Jesus said, 'fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell.' Mt. 10:28 So did those who did not believe end up at rest in the bosom of Abraham, or did they go down to Sheol like the rich man? Luke 16:19-31 The point is he saved them and then afterwards he destroyed them. Once saved did not mean always saved.

You see the physical thing, but you fail to see the spiritual thing.

 

[FreeGrace]

The context dictates what is being said.

I know. That's what I said.

Does broken off pertain to being removed from Christ [eternal life] in Romans 11?

No. It can't mean that. Because Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable. Since he didn't describe any "gifts" in ch 11, we have to go back to see what he did describe as God's gifts. The first time (going back) that we find "gift of God" is found in Rom 6:23, where Paul DOES describe eternal life as a gift of God.

So, in the context of the letter to the Romans, Paul taught OSAS or ES.

To be "broken off" as found in the context of ch 11, it was used in an farming metaphor to teach that those who are of no service to God are simply cast aside. One makes too much from "cut off" and "burned".

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:20-22

As I said, a farming metaphor.

Your doctrine only seems to view the part you want to see, while dismissing the other truth's as meaning "something else".

This opinion suggests that the Bible is contradicted, because all the verses in the first 5 points of the OP prove eternal security, and the 6th point states the fact that there are no verses that says one can lose salvation.

Therefore, it is impossible for any verse to teach LOS. If there were any, the Bible would be contradicted.

The only way for anyone to convince me that LOS is a biblical doctrine, would be to show me what the verses in the OP do teach. There is no other way to convince me. I believe the verses are very clear about ES.

Eternal life is relationship with Jesus Christ, as a branch is connected in relationship to the Vine it depends on for life.

But Rom 11 isn't about relationship. It's about service.

This is the vital lesson taught by the Lord Himself.

No disagreement here.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The key here is what it means to "abide in Me". Jesus already made the point that the remaining 11 disciples (Judas had already left) were saved. So it isn't possible that Jesus was warning them of loss of salvation.

Jesus' point was producing fruit. The ONLY WAY to do that is by being in fellowship with Him.

But LOS doctrine simply has no place for any concept of fellowship. It's only relationship or lack of relationship in spite of all the real world examples of birth parent to child as well as the parable that illustrates the principle of fellowship and loss of fellowship in the prodigal son.

So, the stubbornness of LOS doctrine to consider the principle of fellowship prevents any further meaningful discussion.

Nowhere is it taught that we can be "disconnected" from Jesus Christ and still have eternal life, as He is the source for our life.

Actually, no where it is taught in Scripture that one who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which places the believer "in Him" can be broken by any means. Which shows that LOS doctrine's view of Rom 11 is incorrect.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

Those who "don't have the Son" are those who never believed. Or please show a verse that says that one who ceases to believe ceases to have the Son.

Those who are in Christ, must continue to remain in Him, as no one who is apart from, disconnected from, removed from, departed from, fallen away from, or turned away from Him, has eternal life.
JLB

See above for explanation already given.

And then provide any verse that teaches that fallen away, turning away means LOS.

 

[FreeGrace]

Is eternal life fellow ship with God?

No. Eternal life is relationship with God. It's having God's very life. It comes from being born again by God.

Just as a birth child has the life of the birth parent. That life cannot be un-done.

Fellowship is the condition of the relationship. Just as in a marriage. Though married, does husband and wife always have fellowship? No. When there is dis-harmony, tension, etc, there is no fellowship.

I wonder why LOS doctrine seems unable to understand the issue of fellowship. The Bible mentions it enough.

 

[FreeGrace]

You're missing the point. The LORD saved them out of bondage in Egypt. He showed them signs and wonders. So what did the people do? They made a golden calf and worshipped it. Is Jude giving us a history lesson? No. Jude said, 'he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.' So they died a physical death. So what? The point is he destroyed those who did not believe. What about the soul? Jesus said, 'fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell.' Mt. 10:28 So did those who did not believe end up at rest in the bosom of Abraham, or did they go down to Sheol like the rich man? Luke 16:19-31

What should one do with 1 Cor 10:1-5 then? Throw it out? What does it teach?

 

[JLB]

This is in error. The place where departed souls go isn't where their bodies go. Bodies are buried in the ground. Souls reside in sheol. They are different. But I invite anyone to prove me wrong from Scripture.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

 

[chessman]

God justifies, not people.

Can you justify this claim with Scripture?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

was not using the thief on the cross to prove OSAS for anyone other than that particular individual. But to be clear, yes I think it was an OSAS statement/declaration/prophecy (whatever you want to call it) made by Jesus toward that particular individual, don't you? (I would really appreciate your [edited] answer to that question)

I don't consider the passage of scripture about the thief on the cross an OSAS proof text either way for or against.

Would you allow for that thief to have become de-saved and still think Jesus was Truthful?

No, I would not allow for the thief to have become unsaved in the short time between his conversataion with Jesus and his last breath, simply because it would make Jesus a liar. We just know that Jesus said he'd be in Paradise with him today. It doesn't say why. It doesn't say because he would keep believing until his last breath. It doesn't say because despite him not believing to the very end he'd be saved anyway. And it doesn't even say Jesus was simply prophesying. It just isn't a passage that can be used in an OSAS, for or against, argument. It has little to no value to that end, IMO.

Hebrews 10:26-27 ...
This is the author going back to his previous point. If a NT believer (but still culturally tied to Jews even family ties) were to begin to go back to OT practices they'd relyed on their whole life (which is again not the modern situation), then they would be doing so because they keep holding on to a terrifying expectation of judgment, burning wrath, etc.

Hebrews 10:26-31 teaches non-OSAS because the warning is that those sanctified by the blood of Jesus (vs.29) who trample on his blood in a willful sinning (as the result of no longer believing in that blood) will have no sacrifice of Jesus remaining that they could somehow avoid the wrath of God reserved for the enemies of God.

 

[Malachi]

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

This should be interpreted in the light of Revelation 20:11-15.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The only way for anyone to convince me that LOS is a biblical doctrine, would be to show me what the verses in the OP do teach.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

Since this is the clear understandable passage about non-OSAS, all other lesser understandable (and therefore open to misinterpretation) passages MUST be understood in light of this clear, to the point passage. But OSAS does just the opposite. It simply ignores the plain scriptures that show OSAS to be false, preferring it's own understanding of select verses.

Your passages in the OP MUST be understood in the light of this very pointed and plain passage. That is what non-OSAS does. All the passages in the OP are absolutely true. But they are conditioned on holding fast to that which you heard and by which you were saved. Only believers have the sure promises of the passages in the OP, not ex-believers.

 

[FreeGrace]

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

This sounds like the doctrine of "annihilation". Is that your view?

 

[JLB]

This sounds like the doctrine of "annihilation". Is that your view?

It's the doctrine of God destroying both body and soul in hell.

The destruction is everlasting.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9-10

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


JLB

 

[JLB]

Can you justify this claim with Scripture?

It is God who justifies us, that is to say determines if we are righteous; right in His eyes.


But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 4:5

36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12:36-37


JLB

 

[JLB]

No. It can't mean that. Because Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Same Paul said these branches were broken off because of unbelief.

Plain as day. Broken off because of unbelief.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23

Jesus said the same exact thing, since this is where Paul learned His doctrine from.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Branches that were in Him, and were removed from Him, end up being cast into the fire and burned.

The fire is hell.


JLB

 

[chessman]

God justifies, not people.

Can you justify this claim with Scripture?

It is God who justifies us, that is to say determines if we are righteous; right in His eyes.

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 4:5

36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12:36-37

JLB

Thank you. I see now what it is you believe.

James 2:18, 24 (LEB) But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. ... You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This sounds like the doctrine of "annihilation". Is that your view?"

It's the doctrine of God destroying both body and soul in hell.

Is your answer yes or no?

The destruction is everlasting.

OK.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"No. It can't mean that. Because Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable."

Same Paul said these branches were broken off because of unbelief.

Which is why Paul could not mean "loss of salvation". Scripture cannot contradict itself. Or do you disagree?

Plain as day. Broken off because of unbelief.

Because God will not use them. Even Moses' act of striking the rock when instructed to speak to the rock was described as unbelief: Num 20:12 - But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

And, Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.

OK. The same applied to Moses. Who appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration with Elijah; Luke 9:33.

Jesus said the same exact thing, since this is where Paul learned His doctrine from.

Correct. Jesus said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Paul taught that eternal life is a gift of God, and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

They taught the exact same thing!!