Eternal security or conditional security?

[chessman]

Call the pit "something new"... surely your joking, right??? 2

Nope, it's no joke.
When a little deeper study of a verse demonstrates a contradiction with your current understanding of the verse, it's no laughing matter. It's called learning something new.

The something new was the earth opening up and them going down into hell alive.

The word translated "a new thing" is a noun. What you describe is an action word, a verb.

 

[Sinthesis]

Concerning the Gospel it means to turn to God.

Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God. Acts 15:19

If you need to turn to God, then by default you need to turn away from Satan as your Lord.

This is done by confessing Jesus as Lord.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


JLB

How were people repenting prior to Jesus' ministry?

 

[Sinthesis]

But in the command to love your brother (John 13:34) is a new commandment, to love your brother as Christ has loved you.

Brother here is not the world of man, though we are to broadcast that love to the world, But brother in this instance is the Body of Christ, born again believers, who share the Spirit of Christ as one body and His trials as we comfort one another

Yes, I know the Scriptures, but to follow them as written is a command to do so. You can not command some one to love. Love comes by a change in heart and Spirit. To love like Christ is to put someones life above your own with contentment. Not content that you obeyed a verbal command, but by the necessity of the change by a new birth, born of the Spirit of Christ. Not by might,(acts of the flesh) but by the Spirit, It is called, DYING TO SELF, AND ALIVE IN CHRIST.

When you see those who have much and waste it in frivolous things, while you have little and have to scrape together every week to eat and pay rent and can barely afford the necessities to live, and have no animosity or feel sorry for yourself but satisfied with with the peace of God (this is love)

When you work hard and are an accomplished and faithful employee, but those who have been slackers are rewarded with raises and higher positions of authority over you who were not dependable employees, but it does not bother you because you are satisfied in Christ? That is dying to self but alive in Christ.

When you are called and taught by the Spirit of the Lord, and you witness to the world, but are rejected by false teachers, and you are grieved in your heart by their puffed up knowledge, who will be judged by the Lord with (away from me, for I know you not) and yet it angers your Spirit that they draw others away from the Truth to a Judgment of condemnation, That is being a faithful servant, for the Truth of God and the joy of it that you wish their repentance and still grieve for their sole.

Here is the answer to the question on, can a man be commanded to love (1 Corinthians Chapter 13). Please read it to understand.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

The point is that Jesus does not tell us to limit our love for others to just the rest of His Body. Jesus is more gracious than that.

Mat 5:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 - That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 - For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 - And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

 

[JLB]

Nope, it's no joke.
When a little deeper study of a verse demonstrates a contradiction with your current understanding of the verse, it's no laughing matter. It's called learning something new.

The text is quite clear: The Lord created a new pit.

Yes, and hopefully you have.

The "new thing" that Moses referred to was not the hell itself, but the earth opening up and people, with their belongings going down to hell alive.

Here it is for you to read -

But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.” Numbers 16:30

Moses warning: But if the Lord creates a new thing....

Moses description of the new thing - and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit...

The new thing was most certainly not hell itself.


JLB

 

[JLB]

How were people repenting prior to Jesus' ministry?

When a stronger nation would go out to conquer other kingdoms, they would surround the opposing kingdom's capital city, where that king lived, and lay siege to it.

They would not let food or water or reinforcements to get in.

After about a month of siege the commander of the the army or the king himself would announce the terms of surrender, that would sound something like this -

The kingdom of Babylon is at hand. Turn from your king [repent] and come and bow before the king of Babylon, to serve him, or you will die.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The Bible doesn't give alternatives. To say one will NOT inherit the kingdom (meaning the kingdom of God), means there will be NO kingdom inherited. Why assume that if one won't inherit God's kingdom, he'll inherit some other kingdom? Does the Bible tell us that anyone inherits any other kind of kingdom? Of course not.

Jesus plainly teaches what inherit the kingdom means, and those who do not inherit the kingdom.

Here it is; plain as day. "no (sinful person) has any inheritance in the kingdom". This passage is directly parallel to the other 2 passages about "will not inherit the kingdom". They all mean the same thing, being parallel.

Yes agreed they mean the same thing.... and here is the phrase from Ephesians 5 that connects them -

...because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, or have any inheritance in the kingdom of God, will hear these words -

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:34-41


3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7


We know from what John said in Revelation about these things -

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


I'm glad we could finally agree in this matter, that you see that not inherit the kingdom, and no inheritance in the kingdom mean the same thing... The wrath of God. The lake of fire.



JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

The point is that Jesus does not tell us to limit our love for others to just the rest of His Body. Jesus is more gracious than that.

Mat 5:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 - That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 - For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 - And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

I'm sorry you did not get the Spiritual truths that were presented to you. Your answer was not an answer to the question and teaching presented. The Lord says, that the natural man can not receive the the things of His Spirit; for they are foolishness unto mans natural mind, and neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned. But he that is Spiritual can relate and judge all things whether they are Spiritual or carnal. Yet those who follow after the Spirit of God are judged by no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct His elect and called by the carnal mind, for we have the mind of Christ and the Gifts given by The Spirit. For those who can not receive Spiritual teaching are yet carnal or babes in Christ. For, are we not yet carnal if we can not receive Spiritual teachings over the pride of self of carnal interpretation?
But us that are Spiritual coming from babes in Christ to mature are nothing. For we are only planter working in the field. It is God who gives the increase (1 Cor. 2:14-3:10)

 

[FreeGrace]

They were destroyed FG. Destroyed doesn't mean disciplined.

What was "destroyed" was their physical bodies, in the desert. And, yes, God's discipline can and does include physical death, per 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

When something is destroyed, it generally means it can not ever be recovered or put back together.

Any word in Scripture must be interpreted by context. For example,
"He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. Rom 4:19
"Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. Heb 11:12

Living things were destroyed in the flood. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire. Destroyed is the end of something. The people of Israel were destroyed as a people except for Moses and Caleb and Joshua.

All these examples are examples of physical death. Thanks for making my point.

So first God saved them and then later he destroyed them. God can destroy saved people.

Yes, God can call saved people home to heaven through divine discipline.

The saved person is no longer saved.

[edited]

 

[FreeGrace]

Generally we save something if it serves a purpose. It's the same way with God. God made us for his purpose. If we don't serve him he will cast us out. Mt. 25:14-30

If you don't believe you have to do these things (keep his commandments) because they are works, and you are saved by faith alone, then James says, 'a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Faith apart from works is dead.' James 2: 24-26.

James was concerned that believers, (saved people) demonstrate their faith so that others can see their faith.

This is clearly taught in James 2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works".

IOW, without works, no one can see your faith. Only by works will anyone be able to see your faith.

So James 2:24 refers to being justified in the eyes of others, not in the eyes of God. He doesn't need to see works in order to see one's faith. Obviously.

 

[JLB]

So James 2:24 refers to being justified in the eyes of others, not in the eyes of God. He doesn't need to see works in order to see one's faith. Obviously.

God justifies, not people.

God does need to see, as it plainly says in the scripture concerning Abraham and his son.

Now I know....

now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
Genesis 22:12

[edited]


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus plainly teaches what inherit the kingdom means, and those who do not inherit the kingdom.

Yes, and we disagree on what He plainly teaches.

Yes agreed they mean the same thing.... and here is the phrase from Ephesians 5 that connects them

...because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, or have any inheritance in the kingdom of God, will hear these words -

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:34-41


3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7

We know from what John said in Revelation about these things -

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Trying to connect various verses simply by a single word used in the verses doesn't prove that the word means the exact same thing in the various verses. Words have a range of meanings, and context determines how each word is meant.

We see 2 different kinds of "inheritance" in Rom 8:17 -
and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

The first "heir" is "of God", which means, as children of God, we will live with Him forever.
The second "heir" is conditional by the phrase "provided we suffer with Him". The first one is conditioned on being His child. The second one is conditioned on one's lifestyle.

iow, not all of God's children will be heirs with Christ. Only those who "suffer with Him".

This exact same principle is seen in 2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Though LOS doctrine abuses this verse to mean being denied salvation, the verse doesn't say that. It actually says that if we (believers) "endure", which is another way to say "endure with him", we will "reign with Him", which is another way of saying "being heirs with Him".

To reign with Christ is to be an heir with Him in the kingdom.

I'm glad we could finally agree in this matter, that you see that not inherit the kingdom, and no inheritance in the kingdom mean the same thing... The wrath of God. The lake of fire.
JLB

I'm reminded of a verse regarding "gladness" - Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. James 4:9

We certainly are not in any agreement on this.

 

[JLB]

Trying to connect various verses simply by a single word used in the verses doesn't prove that the word means the exact same thing in the various verses. Words have a range of meanings, and context determines how each word is meant.

Inherit the kingdom is not a single word, but a phrase that Jesus used to describe those who are and are not welcome into God's kingdom on the day of Judgement.

Jesus taught this truth to His Apostles, so they would pass it along. Matthew 24-25

Paul was taught by the Lord Himself and not man, as He taught the same thing Jesus taught.

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:11-12


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

God justifies, not people.

Then please explain the meaning of this verse:
"for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord’s sight but also in the sight of man." 2 Cor 8:21

There are 2 perspectives in this verse, as shown in the phrases "Lord's sight" and "sight of man". From God's perspective, He doesn't need to see one's deeds in order to see one's faith, but man certainly does need to see one's deeds in order to see one's faith.

If any of this is wrong, please explain how so.

God does need to see, as it plainly says in the scripture concerning Abraham and his son.

Now I know....

now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
Genesis 22:12

[edited]

There goes another logical fallacy, exposed by the light of truth.

I do believe that God is omniscient, and that Gen 22:12 is an anthropopathism to explain a characteristic of God in human terms to communicate a principle.

If God isn't omniscient, then He isn't God. I certainly reject that idea as unbiblical.

 

[FreeGrace]

Inherit the kingdom is not a single word, but a phrase that Jesus used to describe those who are and are not welcome into God's kingdom on the day of Judgement.

Jesus taught this truth to His Apostles, so they would pass it along. Matthew 24-25

Paul was taught by the Lord Himself and not man, as He taught the same thing Jesus taught.

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:11-12JLB

Your view has been given, and so has mine. I don't think there is anything more to add to this discussion.

 

[JLB]

Any word in Scripture must be interpreted by context. For example,
"He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. Rom 4:19
"Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. Heb 11:12

Exactly, so the context in Numbers 16?clearly says they went down to hell alive.

God destroys both body and soul in hell.

These were an example of being destroyed in hell.

Thanks for making my point.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Then please explain the meaning of this verse:
"for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord’s sight but also in the sight of man." 2 Cor 8:21

The word justifies does not appear in this scripture.

 

[JLB]

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. Philippians 3:17-19

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; Romans 8:5-7


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Any word in Scripture must be interpreted by context. For example,
"He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. Rom 4:19
"Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. Heb 11:12"

Exactly, so the context in Numbers 16?clearly says they went down to hell alive.

I guess my point was missed totally.

The verse does not say "they went down to hell alive". Though translated "hell" in the English, the Hebrew word can mean "grave" or "pit". There is nothing in context to drive the meaning as where dead spirits actually reside. So, no, it doesn't "clearly say" what is claimed.

God destroys both body and soul in hell.

This is in error. The place where departed souls go isn't where their bodies go. Bodies are buried in the ground. Souls reside in sheol. They are different. But I invite anyone to prove me wrong from Scripture.

These were an example of being destroyed in hell.

No one is destroyed in sheol. Bodies are destroyed in graves.

Thanks for making my point.
JLB

Hm. I didn't.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Then please explain the meaning of this verse:
"for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord’s sight but also in the sight of man." 2 Cor 8:21"

The word justifies does not appear in this scripture.

This kind of comment has been said often about the words "eternal life" not appearing in Rom 11:29 as some kind of argument against the claim that eternal life is irrevocable.

Yet, LOS doctrine claims that salvation can be lost, all the while WITHOUT any verse out and out saying so.

It seems there is a lot of inconsistency in LOS doctrine. Without having any verses that actually out and out saying what it claims about loss of salvation, LOS doctrine demands OSAS doctrine to provide verses with exact wording.

So, to clarify my point, please answer these questions:
1. The Bible says that God knows the heart of man, so does He need to see deeds in order to know that a man has faith? Psa 44:21 - would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart.
Acts 15:8 - And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us

2. Man, who does not know another man's heart, see faith apart from seeing deeds?

 

[JLB]

"Any word in Scripture must be interpreted by context.

Here is the example that God has given to us, with the context.

But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”31 Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit [Sheol]; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly. Numbers 16:30-33


But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.31 And immediately as he had made an end of speaking, the earth broke asunder under their feet: 32 And opening her mouth, devoured them with their tents and all their substance.
33 And they went down alive into hell the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people. Numbers 16:30-33 DRA


This is the example that God has given us, that we may fear Him and turn from evil.

Those people who came out of Egypt, were "saved and baptized", as it were... into Moses, in the cloud and in the sea, ended up being destroyed by God, that is to say specifically some of them went down into hell alive.


JLB