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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Eternal security or conditional security?
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
Please show the scripture that says Moses was broken off because of unbelief.
And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
Hebrews 3:5
JLB
If you can produce a scripture where Paul said eternal life is irrevocable, then do so.
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24
The context is the resurrection, and refers to those who hear His Voice.
Jesus is the resurrection and the life.
Those who have the son, have life. Those who do not have the Son, do not have life.
Those who believe have the Son.
Those who believe for a while have the Son for a while.
Jesus plainly said we must abide in Him, remain connected to Him.
Those who do not remain in Him, are cast into the fire and burned.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
If that's true, then Paul lost his salvation:
"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)
Moses, because of his own "unbelief" was not permitted into the promised land, which I proved from Scripture. I was making an analogy.
My point is that the word 'unbelief' can be used in various ways. It was said of Moses when he struck the rock when commanded to speak to the rock.
However, even though Moses sinned and disobeyed God, because of God's GREATER GRACE, which is not "hyper-grace", the water flowed out and the people drank.
Cygnus
Member
Yes, if it's true then nobody is saved. Like you, Paul didn't hold fast to the word inwhich even he preached.
I'm glad my God saves through grace and mercy rather than just how good I hold fast.
Sure, again and again:
Paul tells us that eternal life is a gift of God here: Rom 6:23.
Then, Paul tells us that God's gifts are irrevocable here: Rom 11:29.
Finally, Paul did NOT exclude the gift of eternal life from God's gifts that are irrevocable.
In fact, there are no verses in the Bible that tells us that any of God's gifts are irrevocable.
So, if one insists that eternal life is revocable, one must provide a verse that actually says so.
The text is crystal clear: those who believe HAVE eternal life.
Without a verse that says the second statement, it is only an assumption.
Jesus was speaking about fellowship, not relationship.
Farming metaphor, not to be taken literally.
The context is the 7 year tribulation, so it does NOT apply to anyone other than during the tribulation. And the context is about being saved from physical death. Not eternal death.
Can you show the specific Scripture reference where this is recorded or are you deducing this from the context?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Still holding fast on this end.....over thirty years now. And I'm non-OSAS. Doesn't compute according to OSAS, but here I am. But I'm being told that hyper-grace is able to reach even the one who has become an ex-believer by rejecting the blood of Christ after salvation, but can't seem to reach the fruit bearing believer like me who is non-OSAS.
He saves through FAITH. And we are reserved for the Day of Salvation through that same faith (not works as some can only hear the non-OSAS argument).
"4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)
But OSAS is saying you don't have to have faith to be protected for a salvation that will be revealed in the last time. That even ex-believers who have trampled on the blood of Christ and treated it with contempt and and as a result have lost the efficacy of the blood of Christ will inherit eternal life. That completely and utterly contradicts the plain words of scripture, yet OSAS insists it is the correct doctrine.
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chessman
Member
Luke 23:43 (LEB) And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
If Jesus never lied, then it had great value for that individual thief's OSAS status. I'm sure Jesus' promise meant a lot to him for the rest of his life. Granted, a short lived life in Christ. But one lived in Christ with a great and valuable promise attached to it, nonetheless.
My point is, Jesus applied no more additional conditions on top of what the thief had already believed in order for him to be assured to be with Christ after his death. The thief believed in Jesus for his salvation and poof, Jesus said he would be with Him later (at the end of his life). He has given all believers that same confidence as well.
John 17:20-21 (LEB) “And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me.
Neither does Paul apply any additional conditions on top of what it is that saves someone. Either in 1 Cor 15:1-2 or anywhere else.
The bold is yours and the portion you delete out of the verse is Paul's. Every time you truncate Paul's sentence (and thusly truncate the logical flow he laid out within it) and you bold only a portion of his logical truth you are dismissing a key logical feature of that verse. Something I keep poiting out to you.
What you posted above is NOT 1 Cor 15:1-2 NASB. It's only a portion of it. Here's the whole verse:
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (NASB) Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
And as you know, the tense of the verb "believed" (in the portion you cut out almost always when quoting it) is a past tense verb. Thus, Paul is simply/fundamentally (logically and demonstrably) saying here; you are saved (present tense) unless you were not (past tense). Something both sides agree with. No wonder you truncate that portion of the verse each time you post it in defense of anti-OSAS.
We left off a discussion of this verse's tenses (and the impact they have upon anti-OSAS doctrines) in the18 Apr post I re-quote below. In it, you were speculating about a possibility of future events based on a verse that only uses past and present tense verbs.
Have you put more thought/study into the logical flow of this verse (based on the complete verse and past tense verb used for believed in vain) since that time? The reason I re-ask is I notice you are back to posting only a portion of 1 Cor 15:2 and cutting off the unless part.
WRT, your statement above, I asked you:
You did not answer this question.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
No assumption. Here is a verse:
"Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB italics in original, bold mine)
Here is Christ's house, the building of God:
"through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22 NASB)
So the author of Hebrews says I'm a part of that house if I hold fast my confidence (my faith) firm until the end. But OSAS says I'm still a part of that house if I DON'T hold fast my confidence (my faith) firm until the end, in complete and utter contradiction to the plain words of scripture.
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The testimony about Moses was - And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, Hebrews 3:5
It is the faithful who are given grace... For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Grace is bestowed upon people through their faith.
Those who reject the Lord are cast into hell. That's the message.
But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.” Numbers 16:30
This is an example of those who believe for a while, were baptized into Moses, the cloud and the sea, then later were cast down into hell.
Faithful = grace
Faithless = hell
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
(running out the door....)
You're deviating from the OSAS argument.
There is no OSAS point to be made in Jesus knowing ahead of time because he omniscient who will choose to believe to the end and who will not.
OSAS says one of two things: Truly saved people will believe all the way to the end, or, it doesn't matter if you believe to the very end because you are still saved even in your rejection of Christ. The thief on the cross story addresses neither of these.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13
Those who no longer believe in the name of the Son of God, no longer have the Son, and therefore no longer have the eternal life they once had when they did believe in the name of the son of God.
Please post the scripture that teaches us, those who no longer believe in the name of the Son of God, still have eternal life.
JLB
So if death doesn't mean death, then life doesn't mean life, then hell doesn't mean hell, then God doesn't mean God. Where does it end?
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is what OSAS is all about. I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS. What you read in plain words is 'not really' what it so plainly says. The list of passages that 'don't really' mean what they plainly say is incredibly lengthy in OSAS. For example, in the 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 passage I've been sharing, it has been assailed from all angles as not really meaning what it says until finally it has come down to 'saved' not really meaning saved as in salvation.
And...
Will not inherit the kingdom, means... loss of rewards, "not really" being sentenced to the fires of hell.
and...
"thrown into the fire and burned"... doesn't really mean thrown into the fire and burned, but means... "something else".
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Chessman, it says it right there in plain words what the condition is to be saved:
"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)
I center in on this passage because it is one that can't be twisted through convenient reinterpretation of words. The subject is plainly and clearly salvation (not fellowship, kingdom privilege, yada yada yada). But even then OSAS redefined 'saved' to not mean salvation. Wow! I'm with Mark: Where does this redefining of terms end, where does it end?
I challenge you once again to show how if they 'really' believed or not in the beginning changes the truth 'you are saved if you hold firmly the word that was preached'.
Write this down: The argument is, you have to be believing today, right now, in order to be saved today, right now.
I did answer the question as to the possibility. But that does not address the essential point about OSAS. The 'unless you believed in vain' does not change the fact that the person who has believed and been saved by the gospel is "saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)
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chessman
Member
No I'm not.
Yes there is a point to be made. Yes He is omniscient. Not only omniscient toward that thief but other thieves (and sinners) as well.
So when he says "Depart from Me, I never knew you", He will be Truthful. 100% Truthful. Your idea has Jesus declaring what amounts to a lie at the Judgment. He would be telling some once saved people, "I never knew you" when in fact he did know them once, just no longer.
That's what I say. The Bible is chocked full of examples. This thief being one of many.
Sure it does. It's an example of OSAS and how that comports with Scripture. Once the thief was saved, he remained saved for the rest of His life. What Jesus declared to him became true there and will be true in what He will say in Matt 7:23. If the thief had stopped believing and become de-saved, Jesus' statement would have been untrue then and in Matt 7:23. But it wasn't untrue nor will it be.
Just like what He declares for all saved people in Matt 7:23 will be true.