Eternal security or conditional security?

[Jethro Bodine]

it seems as if you are writing there is a faith that has the natural fruit of works and a faith that does not.

I am.
And the faith that does not have works attached is, as you point out, the 'faith' James says the demons have, along with many in the church, that simply knows God is real, but is not a faith in the forgiveness of God. Faith in the forgiveness of God is what changes a person into a saved, new creation that does good works, not the 'faith' that simply acknowledges that God exists and that he is One. You understand me correctly.

it seems as if you are writing the once we receive the gift of faith from God, it's our part to produce the good works. I think good works are the the irrepressible fruit of faith.

I am saying that. Paul warns us to not suppress, or grieve the Holy Spirit:

"19 Do not quench the Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 5:19 NASB)

"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30 NASB)

Certainly you, as a Christian, can relate to the times you knew to do good but failed to do so for whatever reason. James also speaks of this:

"to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin." (James 4:17 NASB italics in original)

These clearly show us that being Spirit-sealed and filled doesn't mean we go on auto pilot. I know that is a common teaching in the church, but any Christian who stops and takes an honest look at his life will realize there have been times when they had the impulse of the Spirit rise up in them to do right, but for whatever reason did not act on it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is why I believe in eternal security. It was an act of God that saved me and it will be an act of God that will keep me to the end. "...for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. (2 Timothy 1:12 ESV)

This is my reminder to talk about this when I have time.
For now it's back to the slave ship....

 

[JCitoL]

2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Reba

 

[Mike]

JCitoL at least you added some commas so I could breath during that sentence. Appreciate that. Do you have any scripture to support temporary eternity?

 

[Chopper]

JCitoL. My advise to you is, don't present something that you can't back up with, as Mike says, with Scripture or Science. Since you repeatedly say "i cannot say" then don't say at all, no one's interested.

 

[JCitoL]

there is a lot of biblical passages that explains it

Blessings

 

[JCitoL]

for example:

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 (NASB95) "That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one might say, “See this, it is new”? Already it has existed for ages Which were before us. There is no remembrance of earlier things; And also of the later things which will occur, There will be for them no remembrance Among those who will come later still.",

Ecclesiastes 3:15 (NASB95) "That which is has been already and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by.",

Isaiah 46:9-10 (NASB95) "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done",

Revelation 1:17-18 (Aramaic) "I am The First and The Last; I am he who lived and died, and behold, I am alive to the eternity of eternities, amen",

Revelation 21:6 (NASB95) "Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.",

Revelation 22:5 (Aramaic) "THE LORD JEHOVAH God gives them light, and he is their King for the eternity of eternities.",

Revelation 22:11 (Aramaic) "And he who does evil, will do evil again; he who is foul, again will be polluted; the righteous again will do righteousness and the holy will again be hallowed.",

Revelation 22:13 (NASB95) "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.",

when a single eternity ends, a next single eternity begins

Blessings

 

[JLB]

[Jesus praying to his father] I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. (John 17:6-7 ESV)

Brother, this is referencing His disciples who He was with and taught while He was on earth.

These disciples heard His call and the followed Him.

12 While I was with them in the world,I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

It's clear by this verse that "they", and, "whom you have given Me", and "them" are references to His disciples who heard His voice, and followed Him while He was in the flesh on this earth.

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:6-12


JLB

 

[Hospes]

Nice account. Can it be any other way?

Romans 4:21
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Jude 1:24
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

As far as I can tell, everything I wrote is consistent with the passages you gave. I could be a bit dense, but I am not sure what you're trying to get across.

 

[Hospes]

And the faith that does not have works attached is, as you point out, the 'faith' James says the demons have, along with many in the church, that simply knows God is real, but is not a faith in the forgiveness of God. Faith in the forgiveness of God is what changes a person into a saved, new creation that does good works, not the 'faith' that simply acknowledges that God exists and that he is One. You understand me correctly.

As far as I have studied, the scriptures do not use the word faith in such a way it has two different meanings. Have you seen otherwise?

I am saying that. Paul warns us to not suppress, or grieve the Holy Spirit:

"19 Do not quench the Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 5:19 NASB)

"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30 NASB)

Certainly you, as a Christian, can relate to the times you knew to do good but failed to do so for whatever reason. James also speaks of this:

"to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin." (James 4:17 NASB italics in original)

These clearly show us that being Spirit-sealed and filled doesn't mean we go on auto pilot. I know that is a common teaching in the church, but any Christian who stops and takes an honest look at his life will realize there have been times when they had the impulse of the Spirit rise up in them to do right, but for whatever reason did not act on it.

Do I get another option than claiming we must be on auto pilot? (That's rhetorical.)

I believe everything I have written and I do not see how it corners me into believing we do not "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." I just happen to see my working it out as indication "it is God who works in [me], both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)

 

[Hospes]

Brother, this is referencing His disciples who He was with and taught while He was on earth.

These disciples heard His call and the followed Him.

12 While I was with them in the world,I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

It's clear by this verse that "they", and, "whom you have given Me", and "them" are references to His disciples who heard His voice, and followed Him while He was in the flesh on this earth.

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:6-12


JLB

I do not disagree with anything you have written here. Are you thinking Judas was not preordained to be the son of perdition? If not, how was he lost that scripture might me fulfilled?

 

[JLB]

I do not disagree with anything you have written here. Are you thinking Judas was not preordained to be the son of perdition? If not, how was he lost that scripture might me fulfilled?

The point I made was the verse's you quoted referred to His disciples.

The context in which Jesus spoke in John 17:6-7 was referring to His disciples, who lived and walked with Him on earth.

These were chosen to be His disciples, and to take the Gospel to the world, make disciples teaching them everything Jesus taught them.

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. John 17:6-8

These words of Jesus Christ apply to His disciples specifically.

Your post insinuates these words apply to all Christians, when they clearly reference His disciples.

Can you see that?


JLB

 

[reba]

JLB Jesus was talking to His disciples At the Olivet discourse .. yet you attribute His words there to end times.

Why is one different than the other.?

 

[th1b.taylor]

for example:

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 (NASB95) "That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one might say, “See this, it is new”? Already it has existed for ages Which were before us. There is no remembrance of earlier things; And also of the later things which will occur, There will be for them no remembrance Among those who will come later still.",

Ecclesiastes 3:15 (NASB95) "That which is has been already and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by.",

Isaiah 46:9-10 (NASB95) "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done",

Revelation 1:17-18 (Aramaic) "I am The First and The Last; I am he who lived and died, and behold, I am alive to the eternity of eternities, amen",

Revelation 21:6 (NASB95) "Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.",

Revelation 22:5 (Aramaic) "THE LORD JEHOVAH God gives them light, and he is their King for the eternity of eternities.",

Revelation 22:11 (Aramaic) "And he who does evil, will do evil again; he who is foul, again will be polluted; the righteous again will do righteousness and the holy will again be hallowed.",

Revelation 22:13 (NASB95) "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.",

when a single eternity ends, a next single eternity begins

Blessings

The scripture references you just used prove that God is with us right now and at the same time He is in the future as well as in the past, right now. Because God has always been He knew every man that ever would be saved and because He was and is in the future He could write the Book of Life before He created anything to set it into motion.

Eternity is one span and you have not proven otherwise. I know the idea of the Omnipresent God is difficult to wrap your head around but if you can begin to grasp this truth you will see what the rest of us here speak of.

 

[chessman]

The context in which Jesus spoke in John 17:6-7 was referring to His disciples, who lived and walked with Him on earth.

These were chosen to be His disciples, and to take the Gospel to the world, make disciples teaching them everything Jesus taught them.
...
These words of Jesus Christ apply to His disciples specifically.

Right. They were chosen to be His disciples and take the Gospel to the world. Were they not (just as clearly) also chosen to be one with the Jesus and The Father (v11) and guarded/kept for Heaven (v12)?

Thus, do you think this passage teaches us OSAS specifically for His disciples (minus Judas, son of destruction, v12) but not also for us later Christians?

 

[JLB]

Right. They were chosen to be His disciples and take the Gospel to the world. Were they not (just as clearly) also chosen to be one with the Jesus and The Father (v11) and guarded/kept for Heaven (v12)?

Yes.

Thus, do you think this passage teaches us OSAS specifically for His disciples (minus Judas, son of destruction, v12) but not also for us later Christians?

No.


Was everyone chosen to be Jesus' disciples while He was on earth? No
Was everyone chosen to write scripture? No


Consider Paul's words:

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. Philippians 3:17-19

Paul said to note those who walk not according to the example he gave, whose walk is after the flesh, setting their minds on earthly things.

Paul is not giving unsaved people as an example to take note of, but those Christians whose walk is not according to the pattern and example of that he gave. Why would we expect unsaved people to walk according to the pattern Paul gave?

He says these have set their mind on earthly things; not that they were unsaved.

This is exactly what he told the Romans -

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As far as I have studied, the scriptures do not use the word faith in such a way it has two different meanings. Have you seen otherwise?

No. I just know of two kinds of believing in the Bible besides the believing that actually saves. Just believing something about God (James 2:19 NASB), and believing that was predicated on a false doctrine and which was, therefore, believing done in vain (1 Corinthians 15:14 NASB). Actually I know of a third one too. The believing that has ceased (Luke 8:13 NASB).

Do I get another option than claiming we must be on auto pilot? (That's rhetorical.)

No.

You say the power of the Spirit is irresistible. Perhaps what you really mean it is that in the long run. But I can't agree with that either because of John speaking very directly to people who resist the testimony of the Spirit in their hearts, thus making him out to be a liar (1 John 5:10 NASB). That indicates to me a level of culpability that makes the person responsible to respond to the Spirit. For if the power of salvation was entirely due to not being able to resist the Spirit then men would be lost because God never impresses his irresistible Spirit on their hearts for them to respond and he could not hold it against them for rejecting salvation.

 

[JLB]

JLB Jesus was talking to His disciples At the Olivet discourse .. yet you attribute His words there to end times.

Why is one different than the other.?

Because Jesus was answering their question about His Coming and the end of the age.

Jesus was teaching them about the time of the end, and He specifically mentioned the generation that saw the signs he gave, would see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory.

Do you believe that Jesus has already come, and the resurrection is past?

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”...

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Parable of the Fig Tree
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Matthew 24:3-32


The generation that see's all these things, will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Were they not (just as clearly) also chosen to be one with the Jesus and The Father (v11) and guarded/kept for Heaven (v12)?

Yes.

Then we evidently agree on the interpretation of John 17:6-19.

As a side note (unimportant really to the Scripture here), as an OSAS believer I cringe when other OSAS people try to apply Jesus’ prayer for His disciples in John 17:6-19 to later believers.

Was everyone chosen to be Jesus' disciples while He was on earth? No

Was everyone chosen to write scripture? No

I agree with both of these points as well. But before we leave such a special moment of agreement with what the Text of Scripture (Jesus’ words in this case) says and go to Paul, let’s continue with our agreed upon context just a bit further:

JUST AS CLEARLY, Jesus (not me) asks The Father for things to occur in the future for not just His disciples there with Him, but for all who believe in me through their word:

John 17:20-22 (LEB) “And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me. And the glory that you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one, just as we are one— ​

I’m a little taken aback (don’t understand the motivation/hermeneutics) of someone with such a acute understanding of John 17:6-19 as to why that person wouldn’t also extend that keen contextual understanding into verses 20-22 Here Jesus also asks for, not just those disciples, to be one with Him and the Father, but also for all who believe in me through their word (the disciple’s word, i.e. their message/writings).

Can you explain how I might be misunderstanding v 20-22 to be directly supporting OSAS? Did Jesus pray for something to happen that will not, in fact, happen?

 

[smaller]

As far as I can tell, everything I wrote is consistent with the passages you gave. I could be a bit dense, but I am not sure what you're trying to get across.

If there was a like button I would have used it instead. The scriptures were supporting cast.