Eternal security or conditional security?

[JLB]

JUST AS CLEARLY, Jesus (not me) asks The Father for things to occur in the future for not just His disciples there with Him, but for all who believe in me through their word:


John 17:20-22 (LEB) “And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me. And the glory that you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one, just as we are one—

Yes, that is God's will that all will be saved.

I’m a little taken aback (don’t understand the motivation/hermeneutics) of someone with such a acute understanding of John 17:6-19 as to why that person wouldn’t also extend that keen contextual understanding into verses 20-22 Here Jesus also asks for, not just those disciples, to be one with Him and the Father, but also for all who believe in me through their word (the disciple’s word, i.e. their message/writings).

Can you explain how I might be misunderstanding v 20-22 to be directly supporting OSAS? Did Jesus pray for something to happen that will not, in fact, happen?

What verses apply to His disciples should be read in that context.

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. John 17:20-21

Jesus prayed for all who will believe in Him.


If a person believe's in Him... for a while, then no longer believes in Him, do they believe in Him.

I just don't see any trace of OSAS saved in these verse's.


Please show me where John 17:20-21 teaches that a person can believe in Him, then live a sinful life, become a homosexual, or convert to Islam, or be a liar, and still be guaranteed somehow to inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[Hospes]

No. I just know of two kinds of believing in the Bible besides the believing that actually saves. Just believing something about God (James 2:19 NASB), and believing that was predicated on a false doctrine and which was, therefore, believing done in vain (1 Corinthians 15:14 NASB). Actually I know of a third one too. The believing that has ceased (Luke 8:13 NASB).

I agree with you that mentally assenting, i.e. believing, to truth or lies does not save anyone. My original questions were regarding your belief that saving faith may cease:

Just curious: for those who believe their faith is kept/lost dependent on their own actions, do you believe then that salvation is dependent on your works? If not, how do you reconcile the two beliefs:

1. My faith is kept/lost based on my actions.
2. We are not save by works.

Also, if you are the one who keeps yourself saved, how do reconcile Paul's words "so that no one may boast"? (Ephesians 2:9 ESV) It seems you should claim some credit, i.e. boast, in keeping your salvation.

You say the power of the Spirit is irresistible. Perhaps what you really mean it is that in the long run. But I can't agree with that either because of John speaking very directly to people who resist the testimony of the Spirit in their hearts, thus making him out to be a liar (1 John 5:10 NASB). That indicates to me a level of culpability that makes the person responsible to respond to the Spirit.

God's work of reconciling a person to himself is a bit off topic, so I'd rather not get too far into discussing it, but I will digress a bit.

I am aware of no one claiming God may not be resisted. I do believe, if God so chooses, he can overcome all resistance. I am aware of no one who does not believe this. What I call irresistible grace is not so simple-minded as to posit that God may not be resisted.

I am aware of no one claiming that a person has no "culpability that makes the person responsible to respond to the Spirit." In fact, I believe all are responsible for not responding to the Holy Spirit and have well-earned a spot in hell.

For if the power of salvation was entirely due to not being able to resist the Spirit then men would be lost because God never impresses his irresistible Spirit on their hearts for them to respond and he could not hold it against them for rejecting salvation.

I believe all but the last phrase: "he could not hold it against them for rejecting salvation." As I wrote, everyone has shunned God and fully deserves his wrath. And we did it quite willingly. How could it be not just for God to give us what we rightfully have earned, i.e. hell? The amazing grace, i.e. undeserved goodness, is that He has given to you and I what we do not deserve. It is not an offence of surprise that any of us go to hell; it is a wonder and a mercy of God that some of us do not.

 

[Hospes]

If there was a like button I would have used it instead. The scriptures were supporting cast.

Well then! Thank you.

 

[chessman]

If a person believe's in Him... for a while, then no longer believes in Him, do they believe in Him.
JLB

No. By that definition, they do not. Which is why I've asked you in the past for just such a Biblical example. You posted none. I've searched the Scripture for a clear example of an ex-believer and found zero occurrences. Amazing, really, when you think about it. But hay, God does amazing things all the time.

Please show me where John 17:20-21 teaches that a person can believe in Him, then live a sinful life, become a homosexual, or convert to Islam, or be a liar, and still be guaranteed somehow to inherit the kingdom of God.

I didn't say John 17:20-21 teaches all that.

I just don't see any trace of OSAS saved in these verse's.

Well, I do.

My reason being; that same power that kept His disciples 'saved', keeps a true believer saved also. It's really just that simple. Which is why all the glory goes to God (not us).

I have one last question for you to answer about John 17;

Why do you think Jesus prayed to The Father in verse 11 "Holy Father, keep them [His disciples] in your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are" then prayed again (a different pray) to The Father for the same thing to occur on behalf of those who believe in me through their word [i.e. later Christ believers like you and me]?

My answer is; so that it would in fact occur that way.

 

[JLB]

No. By that definition, they do not.

Ok. So now you see why claiming OSAS is a biblical impossibility, and only exist's in the minds of those who chose to trust the doctrines of men.

 

[JLB]

No. By that definition, they do not.

Ok. So now you see why claiming OSAS is a biblical impossibility, and only exist's in the minds of those who chose to trust the doctrines of men.

I have one last question for you to answer about John 17;

Why do you think Jesus prayed to The Father in verse 11 "Holy Father, keep them [His disciples] in your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are" then prayed again (a different pray) to The Father for the same thing to occur on behalf of those who believe in me through their word [i.e. later Christ believers like you and me]?

I will let the same John who recorded these verse's in John 17, answer the question.

... but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18



JLB

 

[JLB]

The Father for the same thing to occur on behalf of those who believe in me through their word

Key phrase - Believe in Me.

Jesus wants us to believe, and to continue to believe [present tense] and to abide in Him.

Abide [present tense] means to remain connected in relationship, just as the example He gave to illustrate, of the branches remaining connected to the Vine, receiving the life giving sustenance that flows from the Vine.

If the branches that are connected to the Vine, become disconnected, then they no longer receive life from the Vine, and they wither, are picked up and thrown in the fire and burned.

All that is left, for the OSAS folks here, is to try and "redefine" what thrown into the fire and burned means.

[Personal assessment of another's views. Let's not go there. WIP]



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe all but the last phrase: "he could not hold it against them for rejecting salvation." As I wrote, everyone has shunned God and fully deserves his wrath. And we did it quite willingly. How could it be not just for God to give us what we rightfully have earned, i.e. hell?

I was referring to going to hell because you don't believe in Christ, not because you have committed sins worthy of death (adultery, etc.). If God's grace was irresistable in regard to salvation then that would mean anyone who did not receive God's grace in salvation did not receive it simply because God did not give it, not because they refused it. That was my point. IOW, it would be unjust of God to condemn men for not receiving his grace (as opposed to simply being guilty sinners) if they can only receive it and not be able to resist it if he gives it.

Just curious: for those who believe their faith is kept/lost dependent on their own actions...

What I believe is a person's actions are dependent on whether they accept and retain their faith in Christ. That is clearly NOT an argument for works salvation. But so many people in the church automatically hear it that way and so stop listening to the argument being presented, choosing instead to stay in the blindness of their indoctrination. I'm not saying that's what you are doing. I'm simply sharing an observation.

 

[chessman]

If the branches that are connected to the Vine, become disconnected, then they no longer receive life from the Vine, and they wither, are picked up and thrown in the fire and burned.

All that is left, for the OSAS folks here, is to try and "redefine" what thrown into the fire and burned means.

Jesus' words in John 15 (and everywhere else for that matter) are entirely compatible with His prayer in John 17 for ALL those also (all future believers, not just His specific disciples that walked with Him) to be one with Him and The Father and it's OSAS message.

On the otherhand:
"They no longer receive life from the vine" aren't in Jesus' words. Those are your words about what you think His parable was meant to teach.

What Jesus actually says is;

John 15:2 (LEB) Every branch that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it, and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:4 (LEB) Remain in me, and I in you. Just as the branch is not able to bear fruit from itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you, unless you remain in me. ​

The parable is obviously about bearing fruit (or not). Jesus said a branch is not able to bear fruit unless it remains in the vine. He did NOT say you are not able to receive eternal life unless you remain in me.

Not one word exists within it about salvation (or not) or Eternal Life or even life. And certainly not about the loss of "salvation". Our subject.

I'm not sure how a loss of salvation comes into the Biblical context from this parable.

Do you feel it is necessary for every believer (every branch) to bear fruit in order to be saved? If so, how about the one thief on the cross, did he bear any fruit?

Or do you think because Jesus says non-fruit bearing branches are cut off and burned up, that that somehow implies burning up in Hell or something? Seems like a far stretch to think Jesus means that believers either bear fruit or they are sent to Hell. Either way though (whether you think that or not), that's not what He said.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My original questions were regarding your belief that saving faith may cease

And that in my opinion is the only respectable argument concerning OSAS. The fundamental question of OSAS is, "can someone who has believed stop believing?" Any OSAS argument that insists that even the person who no longer believes in Christ and has denied him is still saved is not a sensible argument. That effectively has Christ deniers inheriting salvation at the resurrection. Pure unadulterated blasphemy, IMO.

So, can one who has genuinely believed and been saved then not believe? Or are the warnings to not do so and suffer the appropriate consequences sufficient enough to keep the genuine believer from falling away into a denial of Christ? That, IMO, is the only real sensible argument as to whether OSAS is true or not.

 

[chessman]

So, can one who has genuinely believed and been saved then not believe? Or are the warnings to not do so and suffer the appropriate consequences sufficient enough to keep the genuine believer from falling away into a denial of Christ? That, IMO, is the only real sensible argument as to whether OSAS is true or not.

There's another argument out there. That is, the power of The Holy Spirit (God Himself) is able to indwell and keep a genuine believer from falling away into a denial of Christ. (or snuff him/her out first!)

Warnings are not enough. Never have been, never will be.

 

[JCitoL]

The scripture references you just used prove that God is with us right now and at the same time He is in the future as well as in the past, right now. Because God has always been He knew every man that ever would be saved and because He was and is in the future He could write the Book of Life before He created anything to set it into motion.

Eternity is one span and you have not proven otherwise. I know the idea of the Omnipresent God is difficult to wrap your head around but if you can begin to grasp this truth you will see what the rest of us here speak of.

you alone say that He from the beginning knew in advance who will be saved, and St Paul also says:

Ephesians 1:4-5 (KJB) "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

then how can you explain what Jesus, the Lord Himself, says here:

Matthew 28:20 (Aramaic) "I am with you every day, even unto the end of time. Amen"

what "end of time" did He talk about saying "even unto the end of time"?!

Blessings

 

[th1b.taylor]

you alone say that He from the beginning knew in advance who will be saved, and St Paul also says:

Ephesians 1:4-5 (KJB) "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

then how can you explain what Jesus, the Lord Himself, says here:

Matthew 28:20 (Aramaic) "I am with you every day, even unto the end of time. Amen"

what "end of time" did He talk about?!

Blessings

I fail to see what you ask because there is no conflict.

 

[JCitoL]

I fail to see what you ask because there is no conflict.

He said there will be an end of the time during which He will be with the people that He from the beginning knew in advance they will be saved i.e. His disciples to whom He speaks in the case of Matthew 28:20 ?!

Blessings

 

[JLB]

On the otherhand:
"They no longer receive life from the vine" aren't in Jesus' words. Those are your words about what you think His parable was meant to teach.

Jesus said the branches are to abide in Him, which is to say, remain connected to Him, or be gathered up and thrown into the fire.

 

[Hospes]

Brother, this is referencing His disciples who He was with and taught while He was on earth.

These disciples heard His call and the followed Him.

12 While I was with them in the world,I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

It's clear by this verse that "they", and, "whom you have given Me", and "them" are references to His disciples who heard His voice, and followed Him while He was in the flesh on this earth.

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:6-12


JLB

I agree completely. And your point?

 

[JLB]

No. By that definition, they do not. Which is why I've asked you in the past for just such a Biblical example. You posted none. I've searched the Scripture for a clear example of an ex-believer and found zero occurrences. Amazing, really, when you think about it. But hay, God does amazing things all the time.

Have you searched for any scriptures that show us a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, is saved?

Please present us with that scripture.


What's amazing, is how [Address the topic, not the person. See ToS 2.4. WIP] Jesus and Paul and James and Peter plainly warned Christians.

Again, you have not addressed the plain words of Jesus from John 15.

Believers are warned that they must abide, remain connected to Him, or they could end up being cast into the fire.

[Too much of a trolling statement. WIP]

You have not explained how someone who doesn't abide in Him, can end up cast into the fire and burned.

Are you saying a person can be an unbeliever, and be "in Him", so that when they end up in the fire and are burned, you can say they were never saved?

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;... 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15;5-6


JLB

 

[ezra]

Because next to salvation, the doctrine of eternal security is THE most important doctrine for the believer to know. We go nowhere in the Christian way life if we are not sure of our salvation or think salvation can be lost for ANY reason.

And if we don't believe in eternal security.................It ALWAYS messes up our doctrine of salvation.

If the believer is motivated by maintaining salvation or keeping salvation........................ALL the works are burned up, a life time of human good(evil) and not divine good.

It is of the utmost importance, imperative and wholly necessary for the believer to KNOW his/her eternal security to advance in the spiritual life.

John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Believers are missing out on rewards and glorifying Christ in time and unbelievers and believers are getting the wrong Picture of our sure salvation in our sure Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

most every christian believes in the security of salvation .i certainly do how ever what many object to eternal security is those who profess but yet remain in sin. see i have studied this out for years both sides . even those who teach once saved always saved . will say if one stays in sin they are not a child of God . yet if man professes salvation and then returns back to sin and never repents ,then they say he is still saved yet no rewards. thats like me saying i been to Alabama i have i crossed the state line had mine and my wife picture took in front of the sign. i do believe in eternal security for those who are truly saved. a man who continues in sin is either so hardened in his heart or he is not sensing the conviction . there is a know so salvation. to be honest with ya i think its a waste of time arguing over can you or can you not. while i appreciate your reply . your preaching to the wrong person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

i do believe in eternal security for those who are truly saved.

I do too. Salvation is eternally secure for the person who believes. Stop believing and you no longer have the salvation that is eternally secure.

 

[ezra]

Stop believing and you no longer have the salvation that is eternally secure.

imo stop believing you never was saved to start with