Eternal security or conditional security?

[gr8grace3]

imo stop believing you never was saved to start with

If a believer thinks salvation can be lost......................they have stopped believing.

Faith alone in Christ alone is salvation and the gospel........THE faith. If we think that HIS salvation of us can be lost for ANY reason we have fallen away from THE faith. Not salvation, but THE faith.

Many believers are on the fence about eternal security and faith alone in Christ alone. If we think that salvation can be lost and God is looking to our "reform" for salvation..........we have stopped believing.

90% of Christians put Christ +____________ for salvation after they are saved and no longer believe what was required for their salvation in the first place.(thank God He keeps us saved, because most wander into some type of works program for their salvation.)

Professing Christ and putting our best forth and adding the 2 for salvation...........is unbelief. He only takes faith alone in Christ alone.

90% or better of believers who had a moment of clarity and the Lord Jesus Christ saved them...........go into religion and works and believe salvation can be lost. They don't believe THE faith anymore. Still saved, just unbelievers in faith alone in Christ alone.

 

[smaller]

If a believer thinks salvation can be lost......................they have stopped believing.

A little extreme there gra8grace3.

The majority of christians (number wise) do not believe eternal security.

Either Jesus was clear on the subject or Jesus presented two or three different angles on the subject or Jesus was purposefully ambiguous on the subject.

So which is it?

The majority can't seem to see your position. Yet some, I do, see it just fine. Til you leap into condemning the majority as unbelievers, which just incites another set of arguments. That's unkind and uncalled for.

 

[Hospes]

...The fundamental question of OSAS is, "can someone who has believed stop believing?" Any OSAS argument that insists that even the person who no longer believes in Christ and has denied him is still saved is not a sensible argument. That effectively has Christ deniers inheriting salvation at the resurrection. Pure unadulterated blasphemy, IMO.

It really is nice to completely and unequivocally agree with you here. (Written in all honesty.) Sadly, there are people who have been assured they are saved who then live with no regard to following Jesus' commands all the while being convinced they are eventually to have heaven. It is blasphemy in that it tramples the blood of our savior and treats it as nothing but a get-out-of-hell pass. And beyond that, it barricades the person from ever recognizing they know nothing of the beauty and treasure of our Lord or their need for HIm; they have been told by well-meaning people they "have" Jesus when in actuality they do not. Anathema to this lie.

So, can one who has genuinely believed and been saved then not believe? Or are the warnings to not do so and suffer the appropriate consequences sufficient enough to keep the genuine believer from falling away into a denial of Christ? That, IMO, is the only real sensible argument as to whether OSAS is true or not.

It was encouraging to read your statement implying the possibility of Biblical warnings being a God-ordained means of keeping a person from falling away. Encouraging because I find it hard to express and convey the idea that scriptural warnings may have the purpose of keeping the born-of-God, i.e. genuine, believer from making shipwreck of their faith and do not necessarily imply they can lose their salvation. Furthermore, the warnings give the person who was not genuinely saved reason to fear for their salvation and to recognize they are a faux Christian as indicated by their lack of works born from faith.

JB, we may still disagree on the nut of whether or not we can lose true faith, but it is nice to share the passion for the wrongness of doctrine that allows for a person to be born of God through Christ and yet live as if He means nothing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

90% of Christians put Christ +____________ for salvation after they are saved and no longer believe what was required for their salvation in the first place.

How is believing you have to fulfill the requirement for faith after you are saved in order to stay saved no longer believing what was required for salvation in the first place?

(thank God He keeps us saved, because most wander into some type of works program for their salvation.)

I have been saying the requirement for salvation after you are saved is that your faith in the blood continue to the very end. How is that a 'works' program? When did faith move over to the side of works in Paul's faith vs. works for justification argument (Romans 4:5 NASB)?

Professing Christ and putting our best forth and adding the 2 for salvation...........is unbelief.

When I, as a saved Christian, add Christ and faith together for salvation I'm in unbelief?

He only takes faith alone in Christ alone.

I've been saying you have to keep believing (IOW, have faith) in Christ to the end in order to be saved in the end. So how is my non-OSAS argument not a 'faith alone in Christ alone' argument?

90% or better of believers who had a moment of clarity and the Lord Jesus Christ saved them...........go into religion and works and believe salvation can be lost. They don't believe THE faith anymore. Still saved, just unbelievers in faith alone in Christ alone.

Okay, you've made it clear that you agree that a believer can indeed lose his faith and no longer hold firmly to the word of the Gospel. So the matter of whether or not a believer can lose his faith is not the issue for your particular OSAS doctrine. You say a believer can indeed stop believing. That's good. Now let's look at what Paul says is the condition for the believer to be saved:

1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The condition to be saved is that they hold firmly to the word of the gospel. But you say you are still saved even if you don't hold firmly to the word of the gospel, in complete contradiction to what Paul says.

I know you'll want to argue that the word 'if' in verse 2 in Greek actually means 'since', or 'because' they are indeed holding firmly to the word preached to them they are saved. But what you need to explain is how that makes 'holding firmly to the word' no longer a condition for being saved. Even in your interpretation of the passage, the Corinthians are saved because they are indeed holding firmly to the word preached to them.

 

[JLB]

90% of Christians put Christ +____________ for salvation

Maybe you could explain yourself a little here, so we can understand what you mean.

On the one hand we have Christ, who is our eternal life.

On the other hand we have the person who is lost.

How does a lost person, become in Christ?

Christ all by Himself doesn't mean salvation to a lost person.

What must a lost person do, to become a saved person?



JLB

 

[JLB]

imo stop believing you never was saved to start with

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Jesus taught us that those by the wayside were not saved because they did not believe... lest they should believe and be saved.

The next group of people do believe, but only for a while... when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These people believed for a while... then the fell away.

Are you saying a person has to believe to the end of their life, or they are not saved?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JB, we may still disagree on the nut of whether or not we can lose true faith

Well, I mainly believe it's possible because 1) I've seen it happen in a tongue-talking person very close to me, and 2) Jesus speaks of those who believe for a while but who then fall away (Luke 8:13 NASB). I find it hard to accept that Jesus was talking about people who can't and never will fall away from their faith. The passage simply doesn't imply that at all. The very opposite, in fact. I've learned that the factor that the OSAS doesn't factor in is the element of weak faith, not firmly rooted, preferring instead to think of faith in an either/or-black and white way.

but it is nice to share the passion for the wrongness of doctrine that allows for a person to be born of God through Christ and yet live as if He means nothing.

Our mutual love of righteousness binds us together in edifying fellowship despite the differences we do have. When people talk about how fractured the church is I think of how truly NOT fractured we really are because of the love for God and righteousness we share and which binds us together in holy fellowship despite our differences. You have proven this truth about the church to me once again. I see with my own eyes now and again how Jesus' prayer for unity in John 17:21 was indeed answered and his people really are in unity because of his Spirit within us. Not perfect in knowledge, but perfect in Spiritual unity.

 

[JLB]

Jesus' words in John 15 (and everywhere else for that matter) are entirely compatible with His prayer in John 17 for ALL those also (all future believers, not just His specific disciples that walked with Him) to be one with Him and The Father and it's OSAS message.

Help me to understand where it is you see the OSAS message in these words of Jesus Christ.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

How is it that these who do not continue to remain in Him are thrown in the fire and burned?

Are you saying that a person who is abiding in Him, is not already in Him?


The teaching of the branches and the Vine is a very simple message to us.

You have branches that are in the Vine, and Jesus says these branches must continue to remain in the Vine, in order to continue to receive the life that comes from the vine.

A branch can not exist apart from the Vine, else it will wither and die.

Likewise, those who do not abide in Jesus Christ, will not have the life that comes from Him, as well.

Apart from, disconnected from, no longer in Jesus Christ results in us no longer having, partaking, or receiving the of eternal life that is in Christ Jesus.

Please explain to us what you get from this teaching of His.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The parable is obviously about bearing fruit (or not). Jesus said a branch is not able to bear fruit unless it remains in the vine. He did NOT say you are not able to receive eternal life unless you remain in me.

Ok, let's examine His words.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:1-2

Can a person still have eternal life, though they are no longer in Him; having been taken away from Him?


JLB

 

[JLB]

He only takes faith alone in Christ alone.

He gives faith as a gift.

Faith comes by hearing the word, the Gospel message of Salvation.

Everyone who hears the word has the faith that comes by hearing.

Is everyone saved that simply hears the message of the Gospel?

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

What is the evidence that a person has a living faith, as opposed to a faith that is dead?


JLB

 

[ezra]

Are you saying a person has to believe to the end of their life, or they are not saved?

do you plan on stopping believing { Please explain to us what you get from this teaching of His.} who is US? is this a jury trial my salvation is kept by the power of God correct? and inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, do you go to bed wondering if you lost your salvation ? i go to bed saved i wake up saved. if i sin and i do i must confess i must repent (turn from) i am to walk in the light as he is in the light .if i walk into darkness i have to get a hold of the light switch and turn it on . which is getting a hold of Jesus. i refuse to live under bondage .i know how to get a hold of Grace --which is not a license to sin.

 

[JLB]

do you plan on stopping believing { Please explain to us what you get from this teaching of His.} who is US? is this a jury trial my salvation is kept by the power of God correct? and inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, do you go to bed wondering if you lost your salvation ? i go to bed saved i wake up saved. if i sin and i do i must confess i must repent (turn from) i am to walk in the light as he is in the light .if i walk into darkness i have to get a hold of the light switch and turn it on . which is getting a hold of Jesus. i refuse to live under bondage .i know how to get a hold of Grace --which is not a license to sin.

I asked this simple question, Are you saying a person has to believe to the end of their life, or they are not saved?

I'm trying to understand your statement that says... stop believing you never was saved to start with.


Can you clarify what you mean by this statement by answering my question? ...stop believing you never was saved to start with.



JLB

 

[JLB]

do you plan on stopping believing

Yes I do plan to stop believing.


JLB

 

[Hospes]

Well, I mainly believe it's possible because 1) I've seen it happen in a tongue-talking person very close to me, and 2) Jesus speaks of those who believe for a while but who then fall away (Luke 8:13 NASB). I find it hard to accept that Jesus was talking about people who can't and never will fall away from their faith. The passage simply doesn't imply that at all. The very opposite, in fact. I've learned that the factor that the OSAS doesn't factor in is the element of weak faith, not firmly rooted, preferring instead to think of faith in an either/or-black and white way.

First, thank you for your gracious words. You sound like a person with whom I'd enjoy sitting on the porch, drinking a beer, speaking of God's glory, and arguing doctrine. (Take that as a compliment.)

Not as debate, but rather just an expression of how I handle your two points:
1) I have to confess I have seen what you describe here and it is difficult for me to "fit" it into my understanding of the scriptures from which I form my stand on eternal security. For the person whom you speak - assuming they are still alive - I'd say they may yet return to their Lord. Secondly, I fall back on the fact we never fully know the condition of another person's heart and must entrust them to God's mercy. I realize my reasoning here is not strong, but to reconcile my experience with what I see as scriptural truth, it's all I got!
2) I do not see the parable of the sower as necessarily about salvation. I read it as applicable to you and I throughout our lives. The word of God sowed into my life today may land on soil in my life that is hard, weed-infested, rocky, or fertile and ready. (Many times I ask God to soften my heart, i.e. prepare the soil, to receive His Word.) Again, I see no compelling reason from the text to necessarily read the parable as a description of salvation through the Gospel, though I know that is the most popular interpretation.

 

[WIP]

I see a lot of posts that express personal opinion and kindly ask that we remember to apply the Forum Guidelines when posting. It helps clarify where your opinion is supported in the Word. Thanks.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

my salvation is kept by the power of God correct?

Yes, through faith (1 Peter 1:5 NASB). But some 'Christians' think they still have the power of God for salvation with no faith.

and inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you

Are lotto winnings of a life-time of annual payments now not a life-time of annual payments just because you lost the winning ticket to those winnings? Likewise, eternal life is still eternal life despite those who have lost it because of a loss of faith.

do you go to bed wondering if you lost your salvation ?

Never. Why? Because I have faith. Faith is what makes my salvation secure. As long as I have faith I do not have to worry about my salvation. Not one bit.

 

[chessman]

JLB with respect to your interpretation of the parable of the vine/vinedress/branches in John 15, I am still unsure how you interpret it as teaching de-salvation. Thus I had asked you these two questions previuosly. Can you answer them please before I clarify why I don't see de-salvation in context from John 15.

Do you feel it is necessary for every believer (every branch) to bear fruit in order to be saved?

do you think because Jesus says non-fruit bearing branches are cut off and burned up, that that somehow implies burning up in Hell or something?

Have you searched for any scriptures that show us a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes...

Yes. I have stated this multiple times and even asked you to present one or two that example God describing a true believer who then later becomes an ex-believer (or unbeliever as you call them). The Scriptures you posted in response did NOT meet that criteria. Which I guess is how we got into John 15 in the first place.

Again, you have not addressed the plain words of Jesus from John 15.

Yes I did. (See my post, reposted below)
I will explain further;
I stated that I don't see Jesus describing the non-fruit bearing branches (which He has already described as being cleansed, v3 "John 15:3 (LEB) You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. ", as being cast into Hell.

Non-fruit bearing branches, by definition, bear no fruit. Thus the vinedresser cuts them off a burns them up. That's readily apparent from the Text.

What's not apparent is how you get from there to de-salvation. Which is why you need to clarify how you get there.

The parable is obviously about bearing fruit (or not). Jesus said a branch is not able to bear fruit unless it remains in the vine. He did NOT say you are not able to receive eternal life unless you remain in me.

Not one word exists within it about salvation (or not) or Eternal Life or even life. And certainly not about the loss of "salvation". Our subject.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

First, thank you for your gracious words.

You started it first.

You sound like a person with whom I'd enjoy sitting on the porch, drinking a beer, speaking of God's glory, and arguing doctrine. (Take that as a compliment.)

I do. Thank you.
It would be fun and edifying. That's 'having church' to me.

For the person whom you speak - assuming they are still alive - I'd say they may yet return to their Lord.

And that is the hope I still have, for we are not to judge anything before it's time (1 Corinthians 4:5 NASB). But the scriptures do speak of what you brought up earlier about falling away in a willful, knowing, trampling of the blood of Christ for which no sacrifice exists and is therefore unforgivable (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB).

2) I do not see the parable of the sower as necessarily about salvation. ...I see no compelling reason from the text to necessarily read the parable as a description of salvation through the Gospel, though I know that is the most popular interpretation.

And that's a fair argument within the context of the passage (the argument being that the rest of scripture is what teaches us that a loss of faith is a matter of salvation). But the point is, Luke 8:13 teaches us that faith really can be lost.

I read it as applicable to you and I throughout our lives. The word of God sowed into my life today may land on soil in my life that is hard, weed-infested, rocky, or fertile and ready. (Many times I ask God to soften my heart, i.e. prepare the soil, to receive His Word.)

Me, too. I like to share the parable in the matter of fruit bearing, not salvation. But as I say, other scriptures show us the eternal consequences of not believing anymore and as a result not bearing fruit. But surely, I'm with you. The parable of the Sower (which is among my very favorites) is most useful in regard to bearing the fruit of the kingdom and bringing increase to that which God has entrusted us with.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes I do plan to stop believing.


JLB

That'll get 'em thinking.

I won't give it away. We'll let 'em think about it for awhile.

 

[JLB]

do you think because Jesus says non-fruit bearing branches are cut off and burned up, that that somehow implies burning up in Hell or something?

Yes.

Here is another teaching from Jesus Christ, about His servants who did not...

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:41-43

Do you feel it is necessary for every believer (every branch) to bear fruit in order to be saved?

Based on His example of Vine and branches, and His use of the phrase Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
it's not hard to conclude that Jesus means every branch in Him, and not just His disciples.

This teaching is to His disciples, and teaches them about not only themselves, but their disciples that they will have.

However, it is important to understand that the process of a branch that is connected to a vine, doesn't produce fruit immediately, but produces in it's season.

Meaning that we can not expect a "branch" to produce fruit the moment it sprouts from the vine as a leaf, but in it's season it will produce fruit as long as it remains connected to the Vine.

An example might be if a person gets saved at a crusade and dies in a car accident the next day, or the thief on the cross.

I believe their are exceptions, as Paul said... Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19

He also said -

This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. Titus 3:8


JLB