Eternal security or conditional security?

[th1b.taylor]

He said there will be an end of the time during which He will be with the people that He from the beginning knew in advance they will be saved i.e. His disciples to whom He speaks in the case of Matthew 28:20 ?!

Blessings

I see now but you ask amiss. Eternity is not where we live and the reference Jesus was addressing is time. You must first understand that before there was time, God was and beyond time God not only will be, He is. God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, are not contained nor are they defined within the Time/Space Continuum created for our benefit.

Because the continuum we live in will be no longer after the reign of Jesus/ on the Earth, Jesus, either through the Holy Spirit or in ¿person? will be with us untiil the end of Time but that neither ends one Eternity nor will it begin anew.

May God bless His message to your heart.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace , Would you say that you hold a firm belief that Jesus is the Messiah spoken of in the OT, that He (being The Son of God) died for your sins, was buried, rose from the Dead bodily on the Third Day and appeared to the disciples after His death and burial?

Without question, yes. Don't all orthodox Christians believe this?

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB and I have had a bout on this subject and I got nothing scriptural. But before one of us goes nuts let me say where I stand.

There is more than 98% of the Christian Church that do not belong to the Church but rather to the church. Caps make all the difference in the world here. I base this opinion on the mid-eighties Barna Survey of the Christian Church. The survey was about Basics only and was completed double blind for the most hones answers possible without torture.

Less than 2% of the certifiable Faithful believed in the Virgin Birth, Payment for our sins on the cross and that Jesus will return for us.

So it is that I look over the Church and see a mission Field. Most of the people are Pew Whales setting going feed me, feed me and never studying the Bible to know Jesus. Almost every one of those Pew Whales will proclaim Salvation is theirs and some will say God owes them because...

You make an excellent, though very sad, point here. And there are a lot (way too many) who can't even clearly articulate how one becomes saved. And that's a whole other thread.

It is therefore my position that a saved man cannot loose his or her salvation, you have listed the scriptures. And when one leaves the Church, not the church, I am left to ask, "Was he or she ever saved?" If they do not return, repenting. after a season I am left to judge their fruit as rotten and our Savior instructed that we will know them by their fruits.

The only passage on 'knowing others by their fruit' is in Matt 7, and the context refers to false teachers, who certainly have screwed up lots of believers. Which explains why there are so many different views on so many different doctrines, all under the umbrella of Christianity.

While it is fair to ask the question you posit regarding those who left the Church, I am reminded of the prodigal son, who left his father. Yes, he did return, but did his leaving in any way jeapordize his relationship to his father? Jesus was clear to point out the father's attitude while the son was away and the father's love and compassion when he saw the son return. I believe the parable shows that even when a son (or daughter) has left, the father never quit loving or having compassion for the child.

There is no sense from the prodigal parable that the son was anything other than always the son, in spite of what he did, and the fact that he was even willing to be "demoted" to less than sonship.

But the parable shows that, by comparison, believers today have no ability to change their own status, [Deleted for trolling. WIP]

I believe the OP has very clearly and logically laid out the biblical teaching of eternal security. Therefore, one who has been saved, cannot become unsaved.

 

[FreeGrace]

OK...so people who "make a decision for Christ" and do all the church stuff, go off to college, and come out agnostic or whatever....how do we categorize them? Cuz that seems to be fairly common.

Misguided, lost, or confused comes to mind, respectfully of course. We know that Satan is able to deceive people, and there is no evidence that he cannot deceive God's own. In fact, we know that he does, given all the various views on so many doctrines of Scripture. They certainly can't all be right. In fact, only 1 view can be right and in line with Scripture. All the rest are wrong. Satan always tries to water down Scripture, re-define it, twist it, etc.

Which is why we have forums on which to discuss and debate.

 

[FreeGrace]

My kids noticed the exact same thing.
And thus the danger of OSAS. It leaves a person thinking they are irretrievably saved and can, therefore, safely indulge sinful lifestyles with no fear of eternal damnation on the Day of Wrath. What they don't understand is their sinful lifestyles show they don't have the faith that shields them for that day:

"an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)

See, Freegrace's version of OSAS takes the 'through faith' part of the verse out and says you are still shielded by God's power until the day we receive the eternal inheritance, kept in heaven for us, even if you stop having faith.

I'm glad you brought this up. What is woefully missing from most of the teaching of eternal security is the very real consequences for disobedience and rebellion. So, basically, only 1 side of the coin is taught.

But one must know that the doctrine of eternal security does NOT teach that a believer can "get away" with anything. Just because a believer can "seem" to be getting away with rebellion doesn't mean they are happy, content, or in any way "doing ok". They may look that way to others, but they just don't understand how God's discipline works.

Take the prodigal son, for example. He lived it up and it looked like he was getting away with his rebellion. But it DID come to an end. And then he was miserable. Many of those we know as believers who seem to be or are in rebellion may just be in that stage of their rebellion, where God lets them rebel, just like the prodigal. But at some point, the rooster comes home to roost. Just like the prodigal. He ended up being very miserable, and even willing to be demoted to servant, just to go home. However, that's just not an option, as Jesus made clear when the father interrupted the son's confession when he was at the point of asking to just be a servant. This shows that children of God cannot remove their own salvation, even when they emotionally want to or think they "deserve" it. Not gonna happen.

Just read through the minor prophets to learn about God's discipline against Israel. I'm talking about physical pain and suffering for their rebellion.

So, anyone who teaches eternal security and leaves out the very real and severe consequences of God's discipline towards His own children are really only teaching HALF of the doctrine. And shame on them.

 

[FreeGrace]

I must say, FreeGrace, that you have presented a very accurate doctrine of a Salvation, orchestrated by our Almighty YHWH to be effective, alive, binding, and everlasting until the end of the ages, and effective to usher the true Believer into the Kingdom of Christ Jesus in Whom that person has believed. Bravo!! This is a "Home Run" thread in how you presented it. Very wise and thoughtful.

Thank you very much for your words of support. That was specifically my intent; to show exactly what the Scriptures say about salvation/eternal life. And to challenge the LOS (loss of salvation) side to please explain what all those verses in the first 5 points do teach, if not ES (eternal security). [Edited for trolling.]

In all the posts that I've studied here from this OP, the glaring error to me, is those who believe in the loss of Salvation are not considering this one Truth....

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Now, everything that FreeGrace listed in her OP is valid for those who call upon the Name of the Lord Jehovah, SHALL BE SAVED, period!! Now, all this about loosing ones Salvation is not valid for those who are truly saved. Lets look at....
John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Amen!

Scripture also states that not all who believe on Jesus is truly saved....

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

With respect, I think this is an assumption that anyone who believes (per the Bible's own description) will not be saved. I think John's "signature" way to designate saved people is the phrase "believed in His name".

So, the question is not, can you loose your Salvation. The question is, are you truly saved? I love the parable of the Sower and the seed. Here is a true message of whether a person is truly saved or not....

Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The one who is truly saved is the one who understands the doctrine of Jesus being the Son of God Who died for our sins, was crucified, buried, and rose again, that person will be saved. A truly saved person will domonstrate that Salvation with works of righteousness.

My take on the parable of the soils is about fruit production, not about being saved. Clearly the first soil was not saved, as Jesus clearly stated in the phrase "lest they believe and be saved" in Luke 8:12. Interestingly, He used the aorist tense in that verse, showing that salvation is available from a point in time action of belief.

However, consider the fact that the "seed", or gospel Word of God) DID produce plants in the rest of the soils. I take this to show "new life" as the gospel produced a plant. What's the purpose of a plant? To produce fruit, at least in this parable. Yet, 2 soils didn't produce fruit. I think it would be an assumption that just because fruit wasn't produced, means they weren't saved. I think this comes from the Calvinist's 5th point; perseverance of the saints. Yet, there are several verses in the NT about challenging people to stay "true to the faith" (Acts 14:22) or "true to the Lord" (Acts 11:23).

Such verses indicate to me that remaining true to the faith or the Lord isn't automatic or guaranteed, but is a command to follow. And Paul was clear that many would apostatize in later times (1 Tim 4:1).

That persons guarantee of retaining Salvation right up to and including entrance into the Kingdom of God is wonderfully listed in FreeGrace's opening statements.

Again, thanks for the kind words.

Conclusion? If a person is truly saved, that person will NEVER loose what God Almighty, thru His Son Christ Jesus gifted them with, an eternal Salvation that will never fail because Jehovah our Elohim never fails!! NEVER!!

Amen and amen.

 

[FreeGrace]

The problem I see in this argument is concluding that simply because we are saved now (which non-OSAS agrees with) that automatically equates to being saved forever.

From Jesus' own words: I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28. The "them" in that verse are His sheep, and the context goes back to v.9 as to how one becomes one of His sheep: I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and go in and out, and find pasture.

Note that Jesus used the aorist tense for "enter". It only takes a point in time (1 time) entrance (or faith in Christ to be saved). And the result is v.28; they (His sheep) WILL NEVER PERISH.

The thinking being that because you have something now you will always have it.

Such thinking comes from the verses in the first 5 points of the OP.

But since you don't agree, just what do all of those verses teach, if not ES?

 

[chessman]

do you think because Jesus says non-fruit bearing branches are cut off and burned up, that that somehow implies burning up in Hell or something?

Yes.
JLB

I don't. For the following reasons:
1. Jesus didn't say burn up in Hell.
2. As you noted, he was at the time talking to his disciples. He just got through telling them they were already clean. Their cleanliness was not the issue. Their fruit bearing was.
3. It is the vinedresser (The Father) that cuts the branches off and more importantly tells exactly why; because they don't bear any fruit, not because they have stopped believing or anything else.
4. His point was, that's what people do to branches that are non-producing (burn them).

Do you feel it is necessary for every believer (every branch) to bear fruit in order to be saved?

You didn't answer the question.

 

[JLB]

Take the prodigal son, for example. He lived it up and it looked like he was getting away with his rebellion. But it DID come to an end. And then he was miserable. Many of those we know as believers who seem to be or are in rebellion may just be in that stage of their rebellion, where God lets them rebel, just like the prodigal. But at some point, the rooster comes home to roost. Just like the prodigal. He ended up being very miserable, and even willing to be demoted to servant, just to go home. However, that's just not an option, as Jesus made clear when the father interrupted the son's confession when he was at the point of asking to just be a servant. This shows that children of God cannot remove their own salvation, even when they emotionally want to or think they "deserve" it. Not gonna happen.

The context of the prodigal son teaches being lost, or not.

The context:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

A sheep who is with the shepherd and wanders off is considered as lost.

Jesus makes it plain and clear what the meaning of His teaching is: I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A lost sheep is considered as a sinner who needs repentance.

again

8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ 10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:8-10


The point of the context of the prodigal son.


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32

The context teaches being lost, a person has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Ok. So now you see why claiming OSAS is a biblical impossibility, and only exist's in the minds of those who chose to trust the doctrines of men.

Jesus tells us that those who "enter" through Him (meaning faith in Him) are saved (Jn 10:9) which also means have been given eternal life by Him (Jn 5:24). Then He also said that "those to whom I give eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in Jn 10:28.

I'm not going to quote these verses because I have done so many many times, and, one can simply put their cursor on the citation and the site brings the verse up. So there is no need to accuse my of "only citing verses" without quoting them. I am saving time, and anyone is able to check the verse to see what is says for themselves.

Because Jesus said His sheep WILL NEVER PERISH, the only way to take that is to understand eternal security and OSAS.

Once a person HAS eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Since eternal life is a gift of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable, we know that God will NOT take it away. [Edited for trolling.]

 

[FreeGrace]

Have you searched for any scriptures that show us a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, is saved?

Please present us with that scripture.

[Edited] The one who has been given eternal life, which is given when one believes (Jn 5:24, 20:31) WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 3:16, 10:28).

[Edited] Because eternal life is described by Paul as a gift of God, and then Paul wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. That's why they stay saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

I do too. Salvation is eternally secure for the person who believes. Stop believing and you no longer have the salvation that is eternally secure.

But where is it taught in Scripture, [Edited]

It just seems impossible for such an important idea to not be very clearly and plainly spelled out in the Bible if true.

 

[FreeGrace]

If a believer thinks salvation can be lost......................they have stopped believing.

Wow! What an interesting way to put it!!

 

[JLB]

1. Jesus didn't say burn up in Hell.

Ok, just show the scripture that Jesus taught us, whereby a person gets burned in fire that is not a reference to hell.

As you noted, he was at the time talking to his disciples. He just got through telling them they were already clean. Their cleanliness was not the issue. Their fruit bearing was.

Ye He said they were clean, but plainly stated that "if anyone" which makes that condition universal for all who come to be in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

3. It is the vinedresser (The Father) that cuts the branches off and more importantly tells exactly why; because they don't bear any fruit, not because they have stopped believing or anything else.

No, that's not what He stated.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

• Bears fruit; The Father prunes.
• Does not bear fruit: The Father takes away.

"takes away" is crystal clear.

These are removed from Christ.

You can rearrange the words all you like, it still boils down to this:

• Can a person who was "in Christ" at one time, then are removed from Christ, still continue to be "in Christ"? John 15:6
• Likewise, is a believer who no longer believes, still a believer? Luke 8:13
• Does a person still have Christ, if they are not "in Christ" 1 John 5:18 Hebrews 3:14

JLB


For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:14

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑
Yes I do plan to stop believing.

That'll get 'em thinking.

I won't give it away. We'll let 'em think about it for awhile.

Nothing to give away. Belief comes either from direct experience, just as we see in Doubting Thomas, who believed because he saw the holes, or from those who have not seen the holes yet believe. Jn 20:29

 

[chessman]

, Would you say that you hold a firm belief that Jesus is the Messiah spoken of in the OT, that He (being The Son of God) died for your sins, was buried, rose from the Dead bodily on the Third Day and appeared to the disciples after His death and burial?

Without question, yes. Don't all orthodox Christians believe this?

Good! Yes, I believe they/we do all believe this. You might even say Jesus' resurrection is elementary to the Gospel message (see HEB 6:1-2)

Hebrews 6:1-2 (LEB) Therefore, leaving behind the elementary message about Christ, ... resurrection of the dead ...​

So if I told you that I believed the Gospel, but then also told you I didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead (i.e. ther is no such thing as 'resurrection' would you say that was impossible? The two beliefs are incompatible with each orther, right?

See the rest of Heb 6

 

[JLB]

JLB said: ↑
Yes I do plan to stop believing.

Nothing to give away. Belief comes either from direct experience, just as we see in Doubting Thomas, who believed because he saw the holes, or from those who have not seen the holes yet believe. Jn 20:29

Belief stops when you have obtained what you are believing for.

 

[FreeGrace]

The context of the prodigal son teaches being lost, or not.

What I believe is crystal clear in the parable is the issue of fellowship or not with the father. When the son rebelled and left, fellowship was broken, ended, dead. But the son was ALWAYS referred to as the son by Jesus. That RELATIONSHIP with the father was NEVER in question, nor was broken.

What Jesus was teaching was that even when a child of His goes off into rebellion, the father continues to look for him and love and have compassion on him. We know this from Luke 15:20 - So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

 

[JLB]

What I believe is crystal clear in the parable is the issue of fellowship or not with the father. When the son rebelled and left, fellowship was broken, ended, dead. But the son was ALWAYS referred to as the son by Jesus. That RELATIONSHIP with the father was NEVER in question, nor was broken.

What Jesus was teaching was that even when a child of His goes off into rebellion, the father continues to look for him and love and have compassion on him. We know this from Luke 15:20 - So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

Lost = sinner that needs repentance.

[Edited.]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB said: ↑
Yes I do plan to stop believing.

Nothing to give away. Belief comes either from direct experience, just as we see in Doubting Thomas, who believed because he saw the holes, or from those who have not seen the holes yet believe. Jn 20:29

You don't get it. And I'm not going to give it away yet. You folks can stew over it for a while.