Bible Study Every Man's Battle: Putting An End to the Battle.

[Tenchi]

Too bad you missed the "IF".
Some of 1 John 1 addresses those who walk in God, in Whom is no sin.
Some of 1 John 1 addresses those who walk in sin.
Can you figure out which verses apply to each ?

I missed the "if"? No, I didn't.

Nothing you wrote here show that I did, nor does your response deny what verse 8 clearly states: If you claim you're without sin, you are self-deceived and the truth isn't in you. This is you Hopeful 2.

Were your evaluation correct, then nobody walks in God...the light.

Not in their practical, daily living, no, they don't. In their spiritual position in Christ, all born-again believers are declared by God to be perfectly righteous, but this is a forensic declaration necessary to their acceptance by God, it's not a statement of the believer's actual, mundane condition.

All believers are in a continuum of growth and change, becoming ever more holy in their living, closing the gap between their spiritual position in Jesus Christ and their practical, everyday condition.

Hebrews 6:1-3
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do if God permits.

Ephesians 4:13-15
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

1 Peter 2:2
2 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—

2 Peter 3:18
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

2 Corinthians 7:1
1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Colossians 2:19
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Hebrews 5:12-14
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

And so on. Though Christians are progressively becoming more like Jesus in their practical, mundane condition, they cannot ever say they are utterly sin-free in this condition. To do so, as the apostle John wrote, is to be self-deceived and devoid of the truth.

1 John 1:7-8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Thank God some do walk in the light-God, in Whom is no sin. (v7)
Thank God some can say they know God. (v7)
Thank God some can say they have fellowship with God. (v7)
1 John 2:3-6 further delineates between those who walk in in darkness and those walking in the light with..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
Does that sound like folks who walk in darkness ?
No, but it does sound like those walking in the light.

Walking in the Light is not the same as being the Light, which is exactly what we would be were we perfect in our conduct, as Christ was. I can walk in the light of the Sun, though, without burning with the heat and brilliance of millions of nuclear explosions myself, as the Sun does. It is not necessary to walking in the light of the Sun that I be exactly as the Sun is. This is so also in the matter of walking in the Light of fellowship with God. See above and also: 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11; Ephesians 5:1-13; Romans 6; Galatians 3:1-3; Revelation 2-3, etc.

The temptation to leave my walk in God-the light probably won't end until my vessel dies.

Of course it won't. This is exactly what the Bible indicates: Romans 7:15-24, Galatians 6:17; 1 John 1:8-10.

But, by the grace of God, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the word of God, I am fully prepared to continue on in God-the light
If I can provoke others to walk in God-the light, some of my works will survive the fire.
Will those walking in the darkness-sin survive ?

If the sheep of the Good Shepherd wander off into the wilderness, he doesn't cast them away, rejecting them as his own sheep, but goes after them and retrieves them (Luke 15:3-6) in fulfillment of his promise that no one - not even the sheep him/herself - can pluck his sheep out of his hand (John 10:27-29).

If a son (or daughter) of the heavenly Father goes off into a "far country" and lives badly, he may at any time return, in humility and repentance, to fellowship with his heavenly Father because the son's relationship to Him as one of His children cannot be dissolved. Even in the "pigpen of sin," a true child of God will look up at some point and say, "I will go to my Father." And when he does, the Father rushes out to meet them, embracing him and celebrating his return to fellowship with Himself. (Luke 15:11-32)

 

[Hopeful 2]

I missed the "if"? No, I didn't.

You apparently did.

Nothing you wrote here show that I did, nor does your response deny what verse 8 clearly states: If you claim you're without sin, you are self-deceived and the truth isn't in you. This is you Hopeful 2.

The out come of each verse is based on the "IF".
If you walk in God, "X" will happen.
"IF" you walk in sin, "Y" will happen.

Not in their practical, daily living, no,

I really disagree.
Don't you think anyone loves God enough to put themselves last ?

In their spiritual position in Christ, all born-again believers are declared by God to be perfectly righteous,

As God won't lie, you must be quoting the accommodators of sin.
It is a devilish thing to accuse God of corrupted vision.

but this is a forensic declaration necessary to their acceptance by God, it's not a statement of the believer's actual, mundane condition.

God is not fooled.
Those walking in darkness (sin) will end up in the lake of fire.

All believers are in a continuum of growth and change, becoming ever more holy in their living, closing the gap between their spiritual position in Jesus Christ and their practical, everyday condition.

If that continuum had started with a real repentance from sin, there wouldn't be any more sinning.
But those you cite have started a false walk in the light, and in essence have no light at all.

Hebrews 6:1-3
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do if God permits.

Did you see that ?
A foundation of repentance from sin !
Those committing sin have not repented of sin !

Ephesians 4:13-15
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

Only the growth started with a foundation of repentance form sin is of any value.

Walking in the Light is not the same as being the Light,

That denied what was written in 1 John 1.
God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all !

which is exactly what we would be were we perfect in our conduct, as Christ was

You mean just as Jesus commanded in Matt 5:48 ?
I agree.

. I can walk in the light of the Sun, though, without burning with the heat and brilliance of millions of nuclear explosions myself, as the Sun does. It is not necessary to walking in the light of the Sun that I be exactly as the Sun is. This is so also in the matter of walking in the Light of fellowship with God. See above and also: 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11; Ephesians 5:1-13; Romans 6; Galatians 3:1-3; Revelation 2-3, etc.

If one is walking in sin, they have no light...or God, at all.

Of course it won't. This is exactly what the Bible indicates: Romans 7:15-24, Galatians 6:17; 1 John 1:8-10.

Citing the walk of sinners to those walking in God is a useless endeavor.

If the sheep of the Good Shepherd wander off into the wilderness, he doesn't cast them away, rejecting them as his own sheep, but goes after them and retrieves them (Luke 15:3-6) in fulfillment of his promise that no one - not even the sheep him/herself - can pluck his sheep out of his hand (John 10:27-29).

So you do know what the word "IF" is.
"IF" we walk in the light, the blood of Christ has washed away ALL OF OUR PAST SINS.
And we can say we have no sin.
It is, however, contingent on our remaining in the light-God for continued freedom from sin-darkness.

If a son (or daughter) of the heavenly Father goes off into a "far country" and lives badly, he may at any time return, in humility and repentance, to fellowship with his heavenly Father because the son's relationship to Him as one of His children cannot be dissolved. Even in the "pigpen of sin," a true child of God will look up at some point and say, "I will go to my Father." And when he does, the Father rushes out to meet them, embracing him and celebrating his return to fellowship with Himself. (Luke 15:11-32)

Those walking in sin will start to walk in God after they truly repent of sin.

 

[Tenchi]

You apparently did.

Nope.

The out come of each verse is based on the "IF".
If you walk in God, "X" will happen.
"IF" you walk in sin, "Y" will happen.

Yes. And? If we say we have no sin we're self-deceived and the truth isn't in us. John 1:8. What's the work-around you think exists to deny John's words here?

I really disagree.

And so? What difference does it make to the truth of God's word that you disagree with it? None that I can see.

Don't you think anyone loves God enough to put themselves last ?

What does this have to do with you being self-deceived and devoid of truth when you claim to be perfectly sinless?

As God won't lie, you must be quoting the accommodators of sin.
It is a devilish thing to accuse God of corrupted vision.

Is this supposed to be a rebuttal of what God's word plainly states? Because it isn't. Throwing out the ad hominem "accommodators of sin" and characterizing the plain statement of God's word that born-again believers sin as "a devilish thing" doesn't advance your position one iota nor diminish mine. Your remarks here are just statements of feeling and prejudice, not truth.

Here's the fact of the matter:

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

That denied what was written in 1 John 1.
God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all !

Yes, and? Are you God? Absolutely not. Only God is Light in whom is no darkness at all. The rest of us are not God, obviously. We must grow ever more like Christ, becoming more mature spiritually, our lives progressively holy over time - just as I showed you that the Bible indicates, over and over. We walk in the Light of who God is; we don't possess our own Light and walk in it.

You mean just as Jesus commanded in Matt 5:48 ?
I agree.

A command is not a description of fact. Christ's command to be perfect was nothing more than an unattainable standard that only he, the God-Man could fulfill. To none of his audience on the Sermon on the Mount did he say, "You can be perfect," or "You are perfect" because no human being can be so. Hence, the need for the Atonement at Calvary. And so, the apostle John wrote,

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If one is walking in sin, they have no light...or God, at all.

Mere contradiction is not an argument; it doesn't prove your view, nor does it dissolve the plain statements of God's word that deny your view.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Citing the walk of sinners to those walking in God is a useless endeavor.

What is useless is offering your biased opinion, as you do here. I don't care what your opinion is of God's word, only what His word says.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

So you do know what the word "IF" is.

Better than you do, it appears.

"IF" we walk in the light, the blood of Christ has washed away ALL OF OUR PAST SINS.
And we can say we have no sin.
It is, however, contingent on our remaining in the light-God for continued freedom from sin-darkness.

Nope. Again.

Our walking in the light is absolutely NOT the basis of our salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, 12 Timothy 1:9. We are saved ONLY by trusting in Christ as our Savior and yielding to him as our Lord. Romans 10:9-10. We are not a co-Saviour with Jesus, maintaining/retaining our salvation after we've been saved by walking in the Light. Thinking that one is a co-Savior, that one is washed by the blood of Christ by dint of their walking in the Light, is actually a very blasphemous idea. There is only ONE Savior: John 14:6, Acts 4:12, 1 Timothy 2:5, and he only ever saves SINNERS.

In any case, your remark above is, again, merely contradiction, not useful argument for your view or against mine. Your statements deflect entirely from what I wrote, which suggests you have nothing but useless contradiction to offer in reply.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Selling "walking in the Spirit"? No, I've just pointed out what the apostle Paul taught was the necessary means of "not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh."

Galatians 5:16-17
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

How is it "selling" to draw attention to the plain and vital teaching of the apostle Paul, the second greatest contributor to the New Testament? And how is his teaching "snake oil"? That's a pretty disparaging characterization of his divinely-inspired writing.

I've never boasted of anything. This is your speculation on, your imagined story about, my attitude. It's wrong, being imagined and reflective only of what's going on in you rather than in me.

Also, I don't think "everybody else is a Pharisee." Not at all. There are, though, some folk in the Church who very much are. There always has been, I think. Why should observing this bother you if you aren't one of these pharisaical folk? It doesn't bother me that you've called me one who "sells snake oil," and who is boastful of my spiritual living because I know that God knows its not true. And so long as He knows what the truth is, it doesn't matter to me what others might imagine is true.

Your attitude of arrogance is pretty clear the way you describe our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who should be in the same side with you and I fighting the spiritual warfare, and yet you mocked them for not treating the root cause; then I pointed out the root cause - lust a woman in the heart, straight from the Lord's own teaching, and you beat me down as well with your pompous, preachy remarks. Well sir, ever heard of the golden rule? "Whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."(Matt. 7:12) I called you selling snake oil because you were essentially calling everybody else selling snake oil, that's not ad hominem, you get what you deserve, I but follow the Law and the Prophets by returning you the favor.

My personal experience (or yours) has value spiritually only insofar as that experience bears out the truth of God's word and moves more fully into His will in my life. God has a very particular end in mind in the changes He makes in our lives. When we set about to make our own changes for God, that end He has in mind is actually hindered because we can't ever get a godly result from the efforts of our fleshly selves (Galatians 6:7-8; Romans 8:5-8). Only God can make us godly.

I know of atheists who've lost weight, repaired bad marriages, stopped smoking or drinking, gone to foreign countries to serve the less fortunate in charitable ways, and so on. Their self/life-improvements had nothing to do with God, however, and so did not produce the ends for which God makes His changes in His children. These sorts of positive life-alterations, then, aren't, in-and-of themselves, God's end goal in the lives of His children. The Christian who holds up such shifts in their living as proof of good spiritual living, then, has not necessarily shown evidence of godly change at all.

So, I'm glad to know you aren't afflicted with the temptations that typically afflict everyone else, but you haven't properly anchored your temptation-free condition to God, to His "way of escape" laid out in His word, or to what it is He's ultimately working toward in your life. And so, I can't give your experience any weight spiritually, positive though your self-derived life-changes may be. Only as your "perspective," and mine, conform to God's Truth, to His will and way in Scripture, are our "perspective" spiritually valuable/useful.

The only reason you don't see these positive changes as work of God is your pride, you're denying the power of God and attributing his miracles to satan. You are in no position to dishonor others and call them "atheists", as though you alone walked in spirit, and you only knew how to "handle" God's words, everybody else were biblically illiterate and taking the Lord's name in vain. "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgement you judge, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matt. 7:1-2)

Yes. He was fully Man, as well as fully God and so:

He was fully man, yet he'd been celibate during his entire earthly ministry, never married or had children, never had an intimate relationship with any woman, because his true bride will join him in heaven, not on earth. Whatever "sexuality" you think he had, it was nullified by this fact.

If Peter had a mother-in-law, he had a wife.

And yet he left his wife and mother in law to follow Jesus, and he had no children with his wife.

He didn't ever say he wasn't a "sexual being." And so, it's reasonable to assume he had all the common features of a man, including sexual organs. Paul was celibate, as you've noted, but refraining from sex doesn't erase the natural sexuality of one's biological makeup.

No, but does prove that we are not animals, we're God's children made in his image, endowed with self control and free will to overcome ungodly urges and impulses, to not submit to this "biological makeup".

This isn't stated anywhere in Scripture and, in fact, is opposed by the words of the apostle Paul:

In fact, both Peter and Paul left their own family if they had any and followed Lord Jesus till they were martyrred, as I stated.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

? I challenged your sexualizing of the Christian's heavenly, spiritual experience of God. You're describing that experience in terms of an orgasm absolutely deserved to be "berated." It was obscene and blasphemous. There is, however, nothing at all wrong with recognizing that God made us all sexual beings and that our sexuality (and our entire lives) placed under His control results in a proper, even godly, expression of the sexuality He has created. Acknowledging this isn't the least hypocritical; it's quite biblical, actually.

What's really blasphemous is describing our Lord and Savior and his saints as "sexual beings", defending an animalistic, primitive instinct which defiles our own body and hurts our dear sisters in Christ by justifying it with pompous, underlined excuses. That is taking the Lord's name in vain as far as I'm concerned.

? Some women may be abused sexually in the way you describe, but certainly not all. In our marriage, my wife is neither degraded sexually as a plaything, nor made "breeding stock." Together, we both enjoy the sexuality given to us by God.

See, here you are once again, boasting of your own sexuality while berating my description of sexuality.

??? "Pretending"? I get that we all tend to see the world through the lenses of our personality, preferences and personal experiences, but being under God's control - to those who actually are - is not pretense, but astonishing reality. That you describe this state as mere "pretending" says more about you and your walk with God than about those you are attempting to deride.

The "astonishing reality" is that you have no idea how sexuality has deviated from God's original design, how evil and abominable it has become of. Under "God's control" I see the beauty and character within a woman - or lack thereof, I lock up my own fleshly, ungodly desires and throw away the key. If you've had your own sanctified sex with your wife, good for you, that's certainly a blessing, but don't assume that you know an "astonishing reality" beyond your own bedroom.

 

[Free]

Just going to give this thread some rest. Some Bible study.