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[_ Old Earth _] Evil-lution

  • Thread starter Thread starter aboutface
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Asimov, you should try reading Augustine and his thesis on evil.... ya might find yourself suprised by many things that we have a hard time grasping.
 
First, I think you missed the point of my thread. Second, I don't think you understand the concept of death in a theistic universe.

When you begin to look at death not as the ultimate evil but as the necessary door to the "real world" then you'll begin to understand how God can order death.

BL
 
so obviously god hates the elderly right?

what about peoples grandparents that have to suffer because of inadequate science, for years, living off of a can of freaking air? being bedridden for years? that is paoin, suffering, and, god seems to be elongating their life, keeping them from the best.
 
In the grand scheme of eternal existence, being bedridden and needing oxygen for even ten years is like stubbing your toe... tremendous pain, but over in an instant.

BL
 
tell that to the person who has to live through ten years of it

tlel it to the children raped by others, that they have to "deal with it" in teh grand scheme of things

srry but that makes it sound worse.
 
I doubt that God, who knows everything and created everything has any choice in interference.

"I dought". Glad to see you aknowledge this as your opinion, instead of assuming you know how God should be, better than He does. :roll:

Ordering death is never justified, if you are an all-powerful, all-knowing being.

Why?

an all-powerful, all-knowing God who is supposedly moral would never require death in his plan .

1. Just your opnion. It is amusing that even one atheist will beleive he knows more about God than theists, or God himself.

2. Again, why?


Marck
 
Darck Marck said:
"I dought". Glad to see you aknowledge this as your opinion, instead of assuming you know how God should be, better than He does.

Of course it's my opinion, if I thought yours was better, I'd have the same opinion...

[quote:591c1]Ordering death is never justified, if you are an all-powerful, all-knowing being.

Why?[/quote:591c1]

Because killing people is bad.

[quote:591c1]an all-powerful, all-knowing God who is supposedly moral would never require death in his plan .

1. Just your opnion. It is amusing that even one atheist will beleive he knows more about God than theists, or God himself.

2. Again, why?


Marck[/quote:591c1]

I never said it wasn't my opinion...

and I didn't say I knew more than God, I said that I view God's actions as immoral. If you can show me how God's actions in the bible are moral, then I'll agree.
 
Asimov said:
Being a moral being, and being good and loving, it is entirely logical to presume that I would not factor death, pain, or suffering into my plan because the greater good should not be achieved through immoral means, especially if it can be achieved through moral means.

It's easy, and you don't have to wrap your brain around it. If it doesn't make sense, then show me how I'm wrong.[/b]


1) Define greater good. Who do you think is better off in life---someone born mentally retarded unable to ever form complex thoughts, or a gifted scientists who is enthralled with his groundbreaking research? The former probably experiences much less pain and sorrow in life, but I would consider the joys experienced by the latter to be much fuller and complete than the simple happiness experience by the mentally handicapped. If I had the ability to choose which life to live, it would be the scientist without a doubt. So I personally maximize my "greater good" without minimizing my pain and suffering. Is it than unfathomable that God could do the same?

2) How is death immoral? Physically, death is the simply the cessation of chemical processes by a replicating organized physical unit, which allows the component parts of that unit to be utilized in the chemical processes of other organized replicating units. Spiritually, if you believed in it, death would be the transition from a transient existence to an eternal one. I'm not catching the slightest whiff of immorality here.
 
well, the bible both advocates and then shuns death.

killing of children

thou shalt not kill.

if it brought you closer to god, then why wouldnt he want people to come close right away? why make them wait and suffer, and not let them come close?!?

god could have made all humans immortal, make us not need food, water, clothing, anything. had life so we could have fun however we desired, withought worrying of work, sleep, or anything. he obviously didnt love enough to do that, or something, i still dont understand that whole thing
 
that proves it! all americans are stupid!

(looks around nervously)

I thought this was going to be about evolution, and it's come down to divine infanticide. Bleh.

god could have made all humans immortal, make us not need food, water, clothing, anything. had life so we could have fun however we desired, withought worrying of work, sleep, or anything. he obviously didnt love enough to do that, or something, i still dont understand that whole thing.

Typical Western consumerism ... without pain there is no pleasure. If you don't believe it go read Ecclesiastes, the sobering account of one man who tried to find pleasure without pain, and failed miserably. And if you don't empathize with him then you haven't really lived.

I won't say much about evolution here. No-one would respond scientifically.
 
cubedbee said:
1) Define greater good. Who do you think is better off in life---someone born mentally retarded unable to ever form complex thoughts, or a gifted scientists who is enthralled with his groundbreaking research? The former probably experiences much less pain and sorrow in life, but I would consider the joys experienced by the latter to be much fuller and complete than the simple happiness experience by the mentally handicapped. If I had the ability to choose which life to live, it would be the scientist without a doubt. So I personally maximize my "greater good" without minimizing my pain and suffering. Is it than unfathomable that God could do the same?

Cubedbee, I'm not stating that I know the greater good. I'm stating that if God wishes to achieve a greater good with his creation, then immoral actions to achieve his greater good is not as good as moral actions to achieve his greater good.

This, of course, is the way I see it. If God doesn't wish to achieve the greater good, then bully for him.

I don't know what the greater good is. I'm just saying that the means to achieve it should conform to God's absolute morality.


2) How is death immoral?

Forgive me, I shouldn't have said that. Violence, war, killing, plagues, slaughter. These are immoral. Death in and of itself is not an immoral thing.
 
shernren said:
that proves it! all americans are stupid!

Maybe not all, but I'm willing to agree. Good thing I'm Canadian.

(looks around nervously)

I thought this was going to be about evolution, and it's come down to divine infanticide. Bleh.

Me too...funny thing is, our morality argument in another thread turned into an evolution argument.

Typical Western consumerism ... without pain there is no pleasure.

Typical non-western fascism, countries are forged by blood and iron, eh? :D

If you don't believe it go read Ecclesiastes, the sobering account of one man who tried to find pleasure without pain, and failed miserably. And if you don't empathize with him then you haven't really lived.

I sort of agree...but only on the basis scientifically that how we receive pleasure, and how we receive pain are the same.

Too much pleasure can be painful, a little bit of pain can be pleasureable.

I won't say much about evolution here. No-one would respond scientifically.

Please do, it would be nice to get back on track about evolution...
 
thespunk said:
If God is an all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect, just, good, loving, and moral being and is the only being of this kind -- as the Christian God is typically defined -- then it would follow any means God chooses to fulfill His desired end would also be a good, moral, and just act. To conclude otherwise, would necessitate the negation of one or more of the accepted premises. Therefore, by definition, the Christian God is incapable of committing an unjust, bad, or immoral act.

I agree, then the Christian God does not exist, because in creating evil, he is immoral.
 
the christian god (according to christians0 created men, women and children. created the gay penguins, created poison ivy, created smallpox, cancer, aids, and other things.
its to punish people?

we all look and say the acts that the soldiers did in the prisons in iraq, and say it was evil, but what is worse, making them make a naked pyramid, or actually giving them aids, cancer ect?
 
thespunk said:
Asimov said:
thespunk said:
If God is an all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect, just, good, loving, and moral being and is the only being of this kind -- as the Christian God is typically defined -- then it would follow any means God chooses to fulfill His desired end would also be a good, moral, and just act. To conclude otherwise, would necessitate the negation of one or more of the accepted premises. Therefore, by definition, the Christian God is incapable of committing an unjust, bad, or immoral act.

I agree, then the Christian God does not exist, because in creating evil, he is immoral.

What is 'evil?' And upon what grounds does one reason to conclude the Christian God created evil?

e·vil Audio pronunciation of "evil" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vl)
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est

1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.


And the bible states that God created it. Isaiah 45:7
 
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