[_ Old Earth _] Evil-lution

[keebs]

If you are dealing with the Christian concept of God then it does matter how they define God.

The Christian God defines himself, others don't define him. If you think that our concept of God defines who God is then it sounds an awful lot like we're just making him up...

 

[thespunk]

Disappear! Oh please disappear!

 

[Asimov]

The problem is that you AREN'T defining God. You are applying a secondary characteristic of God, and stating that it is a definition. Once again, you are saying that by definition, God is an arm.

Actually, I included other attributes in the definition as well. The discussion simply became focused on this specific attribute of justice.

Attributes are merely secondary characteristics, thespunk.

 

[thespunk]

Disappear! Oh please disappear!

 

[aboutface]

Oh dear, I step out of the room for just a month and look at what all you children have done.
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, we believe that God is perfect and just. We ourselves know what justice is and are able to form judgements on what we believe justice and morals to be, based upon what? Our revelation of who God is through His Holy Scripture.
A watch tells the time. Did it create time?, can it tell time that it is wrong? Can it tell time to get bent?
Ridiculous to even consider it.
Exactly so all this arguing about the "righteousness" of God's actions. God says He is the Righteous one. Therefore if He does something it follows that it must be righteous, regardless of our point of view, or our ideas of what God should or should not have done.
If He chooses to show me in some years from now or even today that my ideas about evolution are wrong, then I will jump for joy and agree with Him that I am wrong.
The real point of my placing the original post was to show that if God, whom we belive to be omnipotent and omniscient and omnipresent, really is all of those things,then is it not conceivable that He arranged through the power of the Holy Spirit to have the NIV and all the other modern translation written in common language that anyone of any intelligence, providing they can read, or are neither deaf nor blind could understand on such a simple level as to make it as plain as the nose on the end of your face. ( My pardon to any nasally challenged people out there.)
Please stop taking yopur "interpretaion and viewpoint so seriously and slanging off at each other. Agree that there are different points of view, but please agree that we are owned heart mind body and soul, as well as spirit, by the One True God.

 

[ThinkerMan]

A watch tells the time. Did it create time?, can it tell time that it is wrong? Can it tell time to get bent?
Ridiculous to even consider it.

Agreed.

Think of evolution as a watch. The fact that a watch keeps time makes no commentary whatsoever as to why the watch exists, or who made it.

Evolution works the same way. Similar to how we can observe a watch and recognize it keeps time, we similarly can observe the natural world and see that it evolves.

Evolution makes no statement as to WHY it works, it only explains HOW it works.

But, you will likely ask next, who built the watch?

Well, think of a sundial, this one will work...

It can keep time very well, acting as a sundial, and no one made it.

God says He is the Righteous one.

No he doesn't. The writings of the Bible say so.

That is hearsay, at the least.

 

[Free]

It can keep time very well, acting as a sundial, and no one made it.

And it's not living either.

 

[Asimov]

It can keep time very well, acting as a sundial, and no one made it.

And it's not living either.

Neither is a watch...

 

[aboutface]

But, you will likely ask next, who built the watch?
Yeah I would, so you use a picture of a rock OK?
Well, think of a sundial, this one will work...



It can keep time very well, acting as a sundial, and no one made it.
Really? No-One? Am I then to understand that God didn't make the earth? Didn't cause rain to fall?
Quote:
God says He is the Righteous one.


No he doesn't. The writings of the Bible say so. That is hearsay, at the least.
And the writings of the Bible are the Holy Spirit inspired revelation of God. written by God through the hand of man, self authenticating and totally reliable and accurate. I am afraid that modern science has so clouded our vision that we as a race can no longer see that we need to view all around us through the filter of scripture first and then through any other filter we may have. And if science and the Bible disagree, then no matter how compelling the proof is, science must by default, be wrong.

 

[aboutface]

[Evolution works the same way. Similar to how we can observe a watch and recognize it keeps time, we similarly can observe the natural world and see that it evolves.
]
Sorry on first read I missed this bit. What we actually observe is nonevolution. We have not seen a marked progression of rabbits giving birth to anything but rabbits for about 4000 yrs, enough of a time span to see a change I would have thought.
Nor do we see any changes in any of the other several thousand creatures we have named and studied either by making them domestic or hunting them. Deer are still deer, snails are still snails and as far as I a aware whenever a whale throws itself at land it doesn't suddenly develop limbs and walk away.
I don't want to sound facetious, and I know I am.
Seriously what we have is a whole heap of bones and imprints in sedimentary rock that somebody has used to draw bullseyes around bulet holes and say that they are good marksman. Last time I tried that I ended up shooting myself in the foot because I had taken my sights of the target. Which is exactly what I think has happened with a lot of mankind. We have taken our eyes of the target, God, and we shoot ourselves in the foot, but not only ourselves, sometimes our neighbours too.
Love you all very much, keep up the hunt for truth.

 

[Drew]

Hello Aboutface (and others):

I writing to offer an opinion about the relative authorities of the Scriptures and "science". You assert that "if science and the Bible disagree, then no matter how compelling the proof is, science must by default, be wrong". I am afraid that while I consider myself to be a serious Christian, I cannot go this far. I believe that the surest form of knowledge is the empirical kind and I also find that it stretches credulity to argue that tens of thousands of scientist worldwide are involved in what would have to be a highly elaborate conspiracy to keep the "real truth" from us. So, if, and I emphasize if, the scientific community says that "X" is demonstrably true, then I am inclined to believe it, no matter what the Bible says on the matter.

Example: The age of the universe. I am not a professional scientist (I am an engineer) but I have read widely enough to know that there is a compelling body of evidence that universe is billions of years old. I admit that I am taking the scientists at their word- who has the intellectual capacity, the time, or the money to independently verify their findings? However, it really seems to hard to believe that the thousands of worldwide experts in this field are all conspiring to distort the truth.

On a related topic, I think that it is somewhat naive to claim that there is no issue of "interpretation" when it comes to understanding the Scriptures. Clearly some of the material is "poetic" - "the mountains clapped their hands". To me, much of the material in the early chapters of Genesis seems to be of this literary style. So I think a highly literal interpretation of the Scriptures is just not sensible - myth can also convey important truths. I am, of course, not suggesting that all the Scriptures are not to be taken literally - far from it.

 

[Asimov]

Sorry on first read I missed this bit. What we actually observe is nonevolution. We have not seen a marked progression of rabbits giving birth to anything but rabbits for about 4000 yrs, enough of a time span to see a change I would have thought.

Yes, just like we haven't seen a marked change in mountains for about 4000 yrs. You'd think that mountains would be sprouting up everywhere...

Oh wait, haha...that's right, it takes hundreds of millions of years for a mountain to form, and it takes millions of years for an organism to evolve enough to make a "marked change".

 

[aboutface]

a highly elaborate conspiracy to keep the "real truth" from us.

Umm conspiracy? Umm dunno bout that, your words not mine, but keeping us from the real truth which God Himself has provided for us, then definitely yes.
So, if, and I emphasize if, the scientific community says that "X" is demonstrably true, then I am inclined to believe it, no matter what the Bible says on the matter.
Ok "so it is demonstrably true that you will not die if you eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Not my words but those of a far smarter and more knowledgeable being than any scientist alive today.

"the mountains clapped their hands".
Perhaps an earthquake, or maybe a volcano, or can God not cause these?

Blessings to all,
About face

 

[shernren]

Sorry on first read I missed this bit. What we actually observe is nonevolution. We have not seen a marked progression of rabbits giving birth to anything but rabbits for about 4000 yrs, enough of a time span to see a change I would have thought.
Nor do we see any changes in any of the other several thousand creatures we have named and studied either by making them domestic or hunting them. Deer are still deer, snails are still snails and as far as I a aware whenever a whale throws itself at land it doesn't suddenly develop limbs and walk away.

Bacteria become resistant to antibiotics.
Mosquitoes become resistant to DDT.
Pepper moths' population distributions by wing color change according to their surroundings.

*scritch* I could probably come up with more examples if I tried. What you want to do about the beginning - whether God made them with spoken words, whether He let loose evolution and let everything form as it has by itself, whether it all started from a random singularity, whether you admit you can't know and don't know and don't want to know - that's up to you. But denying evolution (as stated as a scientific mechanism) happens today is just scientifically irresponsible creationist propaganda.

 

[aboutface]

[quote="shernren"But denying evolution (as stated as a scientific mechanism) happens today is just scientifically irresponsible creationist propaganda.[/quote]
I think you will find that the "fact" of evolution is that it is still only a scientific theory. therefore to believe a theory is true over the written word of God would be irresponsible human behaviour.