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[_ Old Earth _] Evolution stopped after billions of years.

As you learned earlier, that's not what this is about. It shows in embryology, what Hox genes show in genetics. Evolution works by modifying existing things to new uses.

In the case of the cited research, direct observation. It only secondarily discusses what the modifications to the HOX genes cause the cited phenotypic changes.

Reviewing this thread and your arguments so far, convinces me that you have successfully derailed me from my main thrust.

It is now time to regain the loss.

A gene, or genes, is merely a group of chemicals at the end of the day, and can achieve nothing. A petri dish full of all the genes on the planet will not do anything.

There is a missing ingredient, which I have named the powering instinct. Others may call it life itself, and I will not argue the point.

So to take up your quoted paper which claims that wings, spinnerets and breathing organs arose from the possession or appearance of some gene/s or the other, it is now perfectly plain from considering the pravious paragraph, that the paper and its claims are meaningless in reality.

To remind you of the facts.

Creature A (no spinnerets or silk) -----X----Y----Z----> Creature B (spider with spinnerets and silk.)

I don't know how many X,Y and Z's you want. Have as many as you wish.

There is no proof of the existence of X, Y and Z in the fossil record, but let's assume anyway.

We now have Creature B with all this stuff, and no idea what to do with it.

It does not know what a web is, that it can catch flies or whatever, and that the web, along with the spinnerets and silk, can support its life. In fact it probably does not know that it has spinnerets.

So of what value are these genes: these lumps of DNA, RNA etc, HOX or Hombox, or any other sort you care to name?

In the absence of the powering instincts, which are absolutely essential to survival, the animal cannot survive.

So question, did the instincts, which are immaterial, evolve somehow? Despite the fact that evolution cannot affect the immaterial?

But to take the matter one step further, we have the bell spiders which build their nests UNDERWATER of all places. They make a platform of silk, UNDERWATER mark you, then they come to the surface, trap air in their hairs, re-submerge, and scrape off the air bubbles into their platform, and so build the 'bell'.


They lie in wait there, streaming out silk threads which then trap passing food elements.

Now which HOX or other genes could possibly produce

a. the organs (hair, spinnerets, specially constructed feet etc)

b. the silk (which is one of the most incredible materials on the planet)

c. This unbelievable behaviour?

Please answer the questions directly and individually, without the usual 'OOOO -HHHH---MMMMM mutations and natural selection' mantra.

And when you manage to get round to it, you owe us an accounting for the origin of the microchiropteran bats and their echolocating systems. It was your challenge and I have met it. Your turn to bat.

And furthermore, since butterflies are arthropods too, as much as Pagurus is, you cannot escape. There is no bunny trail here. You have to account for the origin of its wonderful life cycle instead of hiding behind your quotation of that paper, which you have now been shown, is as I originally said, completely irrelevant to anything.
 
Asyncritus, you seem to want Barbarian to comment on a specific spider species, but you admit to not knot its origins. You made up a proto version of the Bell spider and claim that Barbarian needs to account for your made up spider to the Bell Spider. Instead, shouldn't we look at the closest relatives of the Bell Spider and then track back ancestral spider species? This way we can possibly see what traits arose during the lineage of Bell Spiders that specialized the spider for its environment. We would need to study this first before jumping to conclusions.

Also, instinct arises from our brain biochemistry that is a byproduct of how are brains form, which is a byproduct of natural selection. The concept of instinct dosen't pop out of no where, but the materials that give the ability for instincts to develop arise from evolution.
 
Evolution is a theory which contains the concept of an ever on-going change to the whoke of the unuverse and in partiucular to the world on Earth.
Within that world Evolution Theory asserts all life must keep pace with the small but incremental changes that take place eternally, or the life form, as a species, must disappear from the world of the living.

To deny this seems ridiculous in the light of all the creatures which have demonstrated their own disappearance, to include even Small Pox which was unable to adapt to the medicine of man that attacked its existence.

This part of the Theory of Evolution seems enough in itself to dissaude the Young Earth bible people from continuing their argument.
If evolution does not exist, then extinctions would not either.

That is to say that clearly Change is the only thing permanent in this world, and living creatures must adapt by changing with the environment or purish.

That things have, indeed, purished supports the theory that other things must have "evolved" successfully.
 
Small Pox is extinct? Is that because the CDC has not had any reported cases in the last 25 years?

Some speculate that along with genetic engineering comes the possibility of someone, one day very soon, being able to engineer and sequence the smallpox genome again (from common lifeless chemical sources) and this will inevitably make the return of smallpox to humanity possible. :shame2

Would an outbreak of small pox prove that evolution wasn't true? If no, how can the inverse be true? What if the small pox virus evolved again naturally and without genetic engineering (as hard as that might be to imagine). Would your premise, that the extinction of small pox proves evolution remain? Wouldn't you just arbitrarily pick another extinction? The argument you present boils down to 'Death proves Life' (and I agree). But this says nothing about the origin of life. Further, your statement about change ignores the fact that God does not change the and that world itself will perish.

Affirming the consequent seems to be a favorite ploy here.
If P, then Q.
Q.
Therefore, P.

Your logic contains this converse error:
If evolution does not exist, then extinctions would not exist.
Extinctions exist.
Hence evolution.

If God didn't create, then no extinctions (either).
How does this prove one over the other?

I can't follow you.
 
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Reviewing this thread and your arguments so far, convinces me that you have successfully derailed me from my main thrust.

(The Evil Barbarian has been resorting to facts, again)

It is now time to regain the loss.

A gene, or genes, is merely a group of chemicals at the end of the day, and can achieve nothing. A petri dish full of all the genes on the planet will not do anything.

Actually, that's wrong. Some nucleic acids can self-catalyze. How else could it be?

There is a missing ingredient, which I have named the powering instinct.

Why not just call it "magic" like everyone else?

So to take up your quoted paper which claims that wings, spinnerets and breathing organs arose from the possession or appearance of some gene/s or the other, it is now perfectly plain from considering the pravious paragraph, that the paper and its claims are meaningless in reality.

Comes down to evidence. They have it. You don't.

Creature A (no spinnerets or silk) -----X----Y----Z----> Creature B (spider with spinnerets and silk.)

I don't know how many X,Y and Z's you want. Have as many as you wish.

There is no proof of the existence of X, Y and Z in the fossil record, but let's assume anyway.

Well, let's take a look...

EVOLUTION OF ARTHROPOD SILKS
Annual Review of Entomology
Vol. 42: 231-267 (Volume publication date January 1997)
ABSTRACT
Silks belong to the class of molecules called structural proteins. The ability to produce silk proteins has evolved multiple times in the arthropods, and silk secreting glands have evolved via two different pathways. The comparative data and phylogenetic analyses in this review suggest that the silk-secreting systems of spiders and insects are homologous and linked to the crural gland (origin of systemic pathway to silk production) and cuticular secretions (origin of surficial pathway to silk production) of an onychophoran-like ancestor. The evolution of silk secreting organs via a surficial pathway is possible in adult and larval hexapods, regardless of their developmental mode. Silk secretion via a systemic pathway is possible in either adult or larval hexapods, but only larval insects have dedicated silk producing glands. Spiders, however, have evolved silk producing systems via both systemic pathway and surficial pathways, and a single individual retains both throughout its lifespan. Early in the evolution of spiders, silk glands were undifferentiated, suggesting that the number of silk secreting glands of any individual was related to the spider's energetic need to produce large quantities of protein. However, the complex silk-producing systems that characterize the aerial web–building spiders and the diverse types of proteins they produce suggest that their silks reflect the diverse and increasing number of ways in which spiders use them. Because the muscular and innervated spinnerets and spigots of spiders allow them to control fiber functional properties, silk proteins represent an avenue through which animal behavior may directly affect the molecular properties of a protein.


Surprise.

We now have Creature B with all this stuff, and no idea what to do with it.

It does not know what a web is, that it can catch flies or whatever, and that the web, along with the spinnerets and silk, can support its life. In fact it probably does not know that it has spinnerets.

Turns out, silk evolved from pheremones, to which it's still chemically related.

Onychophorans use a somewhat simpler protein to capture:

Proc Biol Sci. 2010 Nov 7;277(1698):3255-63. Epub 2010 Jun 2.
Harnessing disorder: onychophorans use highly unstructured proteins, not silks, for prey capture.
Haritos VS, Niranjane A, Weisman S, Trueman HE, Sriskantha A, Sutherland TD.
Source

CSIRO Entomology
Abstract

Onychophora are ancient, carnivorous soft-bodied invertebrates which capture their prey in slime that originates from dedicated glands located on either side of the head. While the biochemical composition of the slime is known, its unusual nature and the mechanism of ensnaring thread formation have remained elusive. We have examined gene expression in the slime gland from an Australian onychophoran, Euperipatoides rowelli, and matched expressed sequence tags to separated proteins from the slime. The analysis revealed three categories of protein present: unique high-molecular-weight proline-rich proteins, and smaller concentrations of lectins and small peptides, the latter two likely to act as protease inhibitors and antimicrobial agents. The predominant proline-rich proteins (200 kDa+) are composed of tandem repeated motifs and distinguished by an unusually high proline and charged residue content. Unlike the highly structured proteins such as silks used for prey capture by spiders and insects, these proteins lack ordered secondary structure over their entire length. We propose that on expulsion of slime from the gland onto prey, evaporative water loss triggers a glass transition change in the protein solution, resulting in adhesive and enmeshing thread formation, assisted by cross-linking of complementary charged and hydrophobic regions of the protein. Euperipatoides rowelli has developed an entirely new method of capturing prey by harnessing disordered proteins rather than structured, silk-like proteins.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20519222

So, as you see, it wasn't a sudden change, but again, a slow modification of existing things.

So of what value are these genes: these lumps of DNA, RNA etc, HOX or Hombox, or any other sort you care to name?

See above.

So question, did the instincts, which are immaterial, evolve somehow? Despite the fact that evolution cannot affect the immaterial?

It obviously can affect behavior. Would you like some examples?

But to take the matter one step further, we have the bell spiders which build their nests UNDERWATER of all places.

The only spider that spends it's life entirely under water. The most extreme of the aquatic spiders, yes. A few spiders swim, but only one has evolved the use of silk to hold bubbles under water.

Now which HOX or other genes could possibly produce

a. the organs (hair, spinnerets, specially constructed feet etc)

All this existed prior to spiders. Nothing new there.

. the silk (which is one of the most incredible materials on the planet)

Actually, resylin is more interesting. It's why a bumblebee can fly, contrary to the engineer who "proved" it couldn't. If you'd like to learn more about silk and other biological materials, you might want to read Steven Vogel's Life's Devices. It's not too technical, and quite enjoyable.

And when you manage to get round to it, you owe us an accounting for the origin of the microchiropteran bats and their echolocating systems.

You have a primitive echolocating system yourself. Try this:
Go to a large, empty building with large expanses of blank walls. Walk around with your eyes closed and your feet "slapping" the floor. You'll find you can get some idea of how far you are from a wall, after a bit. Viking sailors used echolocation to check out how far they were from land in the fog when navigating fjords.

High-frequency noise gives you much better data about location, which is why it doesn't matter where you put the subwoofer. So bats do a lot better than we do.

And furthermore, since butterflies are arthropods too, as much as Pagurus is, you cannot escape. There is no bunny trail here.

You're all over the map, trying to find something that won't lead back to the fact of evolution. But bunny trails won't help you. Most of us are quite familiar with the Gish Gallop, and as you see, it's easy to counter.
 
Small Pox is extinct?

In the wild. We're keeping some stocks in highly-protected labs just in case there's something we might want to use later.

Is that because the CDC has not had any reported cases in the last 25 years?

Yep. It's a very vulnerable virus. It has no reservoirs of infection; the virus can only be in the body of a human with a case of smallpox. So it's one of the few cases in which we could completely eradicate a disease.

Some speculate that along with genetic engineering comes the possibility of someone, one day very soon, being able to engineer and sequence the smallpox genome again (from common lifeless chemical sources) and this will inevitably make the return of smallpox to humanity possible.

It's possible, but it would be easier to somehow smuggle some out of one of those labs.

Would an outbreak of small pox prove that evolution wasn't true?

Don't see how.

If no, how can the inverse be true? What if the small pox virus evolved again naturally and without genetic engineering (as hard as that might be to imagine).

Highly unlikely. A lot of mutations would have to happen precisely at the right time, and only the precise mutation. Not enough years in the universe to do that. But a new form of smallpox could evolve from related viruses.

The fact that the vast majority of species that exist/existed on this planet are extinct, does mean that evolution must have occured; the planet could not sustain such a diversity; there are only so many niches.

But the fact that something goes extinct is not evidence for evolution.
 
In the wild. We're keeping some stocks in highly-protected labs just in case there's something we might want to use later.




The fact that the vast majority of species that exist/existed on this planet are extinct, does mean that evolution must have occured; the planet could not sustain such a diversity; there are only so many niches.

But the fact that something goes extinct is not evidence for evolution.
Strange how you state that extinctions mean evolution must have occured then in the very next breath state "something [going] extinct is NOT evidence for evolution". Is there no thought of God in your process, Barbarian? Is there no possibility of your Father in Heaven working actively here?
 
Strange how you state that extinctions mean evolution must have occured then in the very next breath state "something [going] extinct is NOT evidence for evolution".

I don't see how. Obviously, all those organisms in the fossil record could not have fit on the Earth at the same time. Just not possible. I can work up some numbers to show you, if you like. On the other hand, something going extinct doesn't amount to evidence for evolution. It's the massive numbers of species that shows there must have been evolution.

Actually, some scientists before Darwin tried to reconcile the evidence with a young Earth, saying that God periodically wiped out entire biologies, and then made new ones, of which Adam's story is about the last.

But I'm sure you can see the problems with that.

Is there no thought of God in your process, Barbarian?

For me, God is in all of it. And as Aquinas pointed out, divine providence can work by contingency just as surely as it can by necessity.

Is there no possibility of your Father in Heaven working actively here?

He is active in every particle of the physical universe. That He works it by consistent laws might make it seem that He isn't necessary, but it is consistent only because a rational creature could not otherwise survive in it.
 
Sorry I feel I treated your post unfairly mostly because I let my self get frustrated with things on this thread of people going off topic, and telling me my theology is wrong when..... ( won't go there). I should have not done that but I am not perfect, so I will try and explain a little more of what I am getting at.
Your argument that we weren't there is not a solid stance to refute the current phylogenetic chart that you are presenting us with.
Thats not my only argument if you have read my previous post or even just post 292. The problem I have is there is a huge number of fossils. But they are missing a huge number of links to show evolution. I believe the fossil records shows creation. Similar animals weather homology, or analogy just show similar creation.
Can you say this actually proves evolution. With all the links needed missing with a fossil record of over 200 million
Homology_vertebrates.svg

The principle of homology: The biological derivation relationship (shown by colors) of the various bones in the forelimbs of four vertebrates is known as homology and was one of Darwin’s arguments in favor of evolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homology_(biology)

As Barbarian has pointed out, homology is not the only qualification for how the chart is composed. Genetic information has helped divide and solve plenty of gap and placement issues within the phylogenetic classifications.
Well genetic information does not show evolution either but common design. Every animal needs DNA should it surprise us some are similar. With just a 5% difference it could account to 150 million base pairs. If you are taught from your youth evolution is a true fact, or had a teacher teach you its fact, I guess you will look at similarities as proof but I don't. When I started looking and studying I was a lost sinner ( 5 years ago I trusted Christ as my saviour), no one I knew was church going people. When someone tells me something I study it out ( except the obvious like the sky is blue today and etc...). I came to the conclusion that the evidence presented on both sides looked like intelligent design by our creator. I am now a sinner saved by grace. And have been intrigued with Gods creations and the more I learn the more I see we are more then a random mutation.

The theory of evolution helps make sense of what we see in the animal, fungus, plant, and Bacteria Kingdoms when it comes to the massive amount of variation and where the organisms come from.
Actually Creation makes more since.

You can beleive what ever you want, and I'm fine with that. I'm just trying to help you understand the very theory you are against.
You can believe what you want also, I am fine with that. I understand the process they call evolution, but don't believe it is possible to get what we see out of it. The beauty of the world alone is enough for some to see it is more then accidental random mutation along with natural selection. I looked deeper and got the same conclusion, so do many others.

By not allowing us to use the fossil record for discussion of the theory of Evolution is like not letting us use planets and large bodies when discussing how the Theory of Special relativity relates to our universe.

No it should not be a problem. Since you have so many missing problems in the fossil record it will not help your argument any. I am not looking for assumptions of the fossil record, heard them all. I am more interest in the science of the matter and how people believe in evolution after studying it. Science is knowledge from testing, experimenting on things that can be observed correct. I understand the mechanisms in which evolutionist state evolution took place, but do not think it is possible for land animals to become whales by natural selection and mutations, the things that would have to occur are huge and can not be observed in any species today, with natural selection or mutations. And the odds can be shown to be logical with what we can test and observe. I understand the time frame but even then does not really help. Do others believe it yes, Why? Because they can't and do not want to comprehend God as an almighty creature ( theological topic not getting into).

The scientific evidence just does not come close to prove evolution, and yes I have heard all explanations. Now I have seen many species of fish but never have we seen one grow or produce anything to change into a land animal. All species are what they are. What we should see is a fish species that has no legs, produce legs, produce fur (optional) produce different organs, start walking on land and become something else. I have never seen a fish in this process. Yes as you claim it would take some time, but as evolution claim this earth is very old and if this is what occurs we should be able to see some point of this. Instead all fish are fish. Now look at the same thing now we have land animals and a deer like creature evolved into a whale. So you have a land animal that would have to start to learn how to hold its breathe, learn how to swim, then would have to develop dorsal fins, bony tail change into a cartilaginous fluke, teeth develop into a huge baleen filter, hair would have to disappear and change into blubber, nostrils would have to move from the tip of the nose to the top of the head disconnecting from the mouth passage, and forming a strong flap to close the blow hole, front legs into fins, increase from around 150lbs to 360,000lbs, external ears disappear and develop to handle pressure to dive 1640 ft deep. back legs disappear all by random chance and mutation. Now have we ever seen a dear like creature that did not have any of these developments start swimming and start to develop. Even the how long it would take excuse like I said should not hold up. For all species have a lot of time according to those who believe this happened, and we should see a creature in the process of this transition. What do we see? All deer like creatures as dear like creatures. We could go into more then that but I hope you get my point. Now please don't go into changes of bacteria, salamanders, birds or etc... They are still bacteria, salamanders and birds and etc... If one evolves into a something else let me know.
 
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Thats not my only argument if you have read my previous post or even just post 292. The problem I have is there is a huge number of fossils. But they are missing a huge number of links to show evolution.

That's a very dangerous argument. I can remember decades ago, a creationist triumphantly declaring that a whale with legs or a feathered dinosaur would change him to an evolutionist. I imagine he's been kicking himself for that one.

I believe the fossil records shows creation. Similar animals weather homology, or analogy just show similar creation.

Comes down to evidence. Fossil record, genes, embyrology and so on, show otherwise. Beliefs mean nothing without evidence in science.

Can you say this actually proves evolution. With all the links needed missing with a fossil record of over 200 million

As you see, the predicted links continue to be found almost monthly. But there is never a link where the theory says it shouldn't be. And that is even more compelling.

The principle of homology: The biological derivation relationship (shown by colors) of the various bones in the forelimbs of four vertebrates is known as homology and was one of Darwin’s arguments in favor of evolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homology_(biology)


Well genetic information does not show evolution either but common design.

If that were true, we wouldn't see genes being reworked to do something else. And that's the norm in biology.

Every animal needs DNA should it surprise us some are similar.

The surprising thing is that cows and whales are similar, but sharks and alligators are very different. The creationist can only shrug, but science explains why.

With just a 5% difference it could account to 150 million base pairs. If you are taught from your youth evolution is a true fact, or had a teacher teach you its fact, I guess you will look at similarities as proof but I don't.

As you learned, similarities don't show evolution. Homologies do. Would you like to learn the difference?

When I started looking and studying I was a lost sinner ( 5 years ago I trusted Christ as my saviour), no one I knew was church going people. When someone tells me something I study it out ( except the obvious like the sky is blue today and etc...). I came to the conclusion that the evidence presented on both sides looked like intelligent design by our creator.

Sorry, my Creator isn't a "space alien" (claimed by ID leaders as a possibility).

I am now a sinner saved by grace. And have been intrigued with Gods creations and the more I learn the more I see we are more then a random mutation.

Darwin's discovery was that it wasn't random.

gical topic not getting into).

Now I have seen many species of fish but never have we seen one grow or produce anything to change into a land animal.

One has left the water, and even climbs trees.

All species are what they are. What we should see is a fish species that has no legs, produce legs, produce fur (optional) produce different organs, start walking on land and become something else.

In other words, you're demanding to directly observe a giant redwood grow to full height from a seed. Do you think anyone doesn't know that's a dodge on your part?

I have never seen a fish in this process.

I'd say a fish that can move about on land and climb trees is in the process.

Yes as you claim it would take some time, but as evolution claim this earth is very old and if this is what occurs we should be able to see some point of this. Instead all fish are fish.

Turns out that genetically, lungfish are closer to you than to a catfish. Surprise.

Now look at the same thing now we have land animals and a deer like creature evolved into a whale. So you have a land animal that would have to start to learn how to hold its breathe, learn how to swim,

Which ungulate today can't do that?

then would have to develop dorsal fins,

The first whales didn't have dorsal fins.

bony tail change into a cartilaginous fluke,

They still have a bony tail. BTW, the fossil record shows why they have a horizontal fluke, instead of a vertical fin. Would you like to learn about it?

teeth develop into a huge baleen filter

Teeth don't turn to baleen. And transitionals exist. And baleen whales get teeth in utero.

hair would have to disappear and change into blubber

Whales still have hair, and blubber is the same subcutaneous fat you have, slightly changes.

nostrils would have to move from the tip of the nose to the top of the head

The gradual change is documented in the fossil record. Want to learn about it?

back legs disappear all by random chance and mutation.

Darwin's discovery was that it didn't happen randomly. Want to learn about that?

For all species have a lot of time according to those who believe this happened, and we should see a creature in the process of this transition. What do we see?

Gradual change in a huge number of transitional whales. Want to see some of that? Can't show you a redwood growing to full height from a seed though.

If you want to deny it happens, unless you can watch it for yourself in real time, then you're safe from believing trees grow from seeds.
 
Barbarian you are funny wonder why no response to my last comment in reply to yours. Your arguments not hold up. Was the fish created to do that or do you have proof that species could not do that and evolved to be able to do that.


With the fish fossil record

Finally, no fish (including Tiktaalik) has true finger or toe bones. Instead, fish have slender bony fin rays, which even evolutionists concede are not homologous or related in any way to digits. While fin rays are ideal for swimming in water, they are unsuited to bear weight on land and thus permit only a slithering and belly-dragging mode of locomotion on land (in certain living species) that can be described as “walking” in only the most trivial sense of the word.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v1/n1/story-walking-fish

The evidence for evolution is not as strong as you claim and the same evievidence you use for evolution can be explained by similar creation. You do believe in some form of creation so you deny the full belief of evolution. So you pick the best of both sides. And you keep acting like I don't know the difference in homology and analogy is getting no where I have already commented on both. And really trying to make the land animal to whale look like it is so easy and not many changes come on now. And I know my Creator is not a space alien never said he was. I believe and take him for his word.
 
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Barbarian you are funny wonder why no response to my last comment in reply to yours. Your arguments not hold up. Was the fish created to do that or do you have proof that species could not do that and evolved to be able to do that.

Could you rephrase that in English?

With the fish fossil record

Finally, no fish (including Tiktaalik) has true finger or toe bones.

You've been misled on that...

fig3.jpg


Acanthostega. A fish, complete with internal gills, lateral line system, fine rays, fishy rayed tail, etc. But limbs with digits. Used those digits and legs to walk about on the bottom of shallow ponds. The connection of the limbs to spine were still too weak to support this one on the land.

QUOTE]Instead, fish have slender bony fin rays, which even evolutionists concede are not homologous or related in any way to digits.[/QUOTE]

Surprise.

While fin rays are ideal for swimming in water, they are unsuited to bear weight on land and thus permit only a slithering and belly-dragging mode of locomotion on land (in certain living species) that can be described as “walking†in only the most trivial sense of the word.

If "using limbs to move around on land" is a trivial sense of the word. I'm inclined to call that "walking."

The evidence for evolution is not as strong as you claim

See above. AIG will lie to you, if they think they can get away with it. Example on request.

and the same evievidence you use for evolution can be explained by similar creation.

Nope. That would make God out to be a deceiver.

You do believe in some form of creation so you deny the full belief of evolution.

As you learned, there's no conflict between creation and evolution. Evolution is just the way He did creation in living things.

So you pick the best of both sides.

There aren't two sides here. If you fully accept God, then you accept the way He did creation.
And you keep acting like I don't know the difference in homology and analogy

But you've repeatedly missed the difference. You just did it again.

is getting no where I have already commented on both. And really trying to make the land animal to whale look like it is so easy and not many changes come on now. And I know my Creator is not a space alien never said he was.

Then ID is not for you.

I believe and take him for his word.

Except where you don't approve of what He did.
 
You've been misled on that...


Acanthostega. A fish, complete with internal gills, lateral line system, fine rays, fishy rayed tail, etc. But limbs with digits. Used those digits and legs to walk about on the bottom of shallow ponds. The connection of the limbs to spine were still too weak to support this one on the land.

QUOTE]Instead, fish have slender bony fin rays, which even evolutionists concede are not homologous or related in any way to digits.

Surprise.[/QUOTE]
No, you should know the Acanthostega is considered a tetrapod.

Acanthostega is the first tetrapod to show the shift in locomotory dominance from the pectoral to pelvic girdle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acanthostega

See above. AIG will lie to you, if they think they can get away with it. Example on request.

I have not seen them lie yet, they was comparing the digits of the Tiktaalik to tetrapods the one you listed and the Ichthyostega.

I have not had a lot of time to post so I have just been looking for quick articles that might explain my point a little quicker, will stop doing that just might take me a little longer to be able to sit down and post.

For your fish fossil record there is a huge amount of missing links like all the rest of the fossil record. Don't have much time so won't waste it here.

Nope. That would make God out to be a deceiver.
Nope that would make Gods word true, but we know you don't believe that.

As you learned, there's no conflict between creation and evolution. Evolution is just the way He did creation in living things.
Yes everything in evolution is in conflict with the Bible, I had a long post explaining it and it got deleted so not going to spend the time explaining it again.

There aren't two sides here. If you fully accept God, then you accept the way He did creation.
I fully accept God and his word he gave us for
2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Evolution is the exact opposite of Genesis. If God did it with evolution he would have made it clear, not have the process the total opposite. Would explain further but post might get deleted.


But you've repeatedly missed the difference. You just did it again.
I don't see where, but I will slow down and put some more time into explaining myself. The problem with homology.
Well for instance when Lionnaeus mistakenly classified whales as fish only to find out their fish like shape was only analogy. There has been many cases of this in the history of homology. I am aware of the difference. The problem is to often homologous structures come from non-homologous genetic systems.
Also there are many homologous resemblance that can not be explained by common ancestor. Like the similar pentadactyl design of the terrestrial vertebrats hindlimbs. The evidence for homology for evolution is not convincing, too many anomalies, counter-instances, and phenomena which don't fit. The same resemblance that will link all the members of one class to a group also distinguishes that class from all other classes.


Then ID is not for you.
I have never read anything from an intelligent design web site, I am just saying evolution does not say we were created by God or any designer, but the evidence points to a creator.


Except where you don't approve of what He did.
I approve of everything he did. He created all things of its kind, in the opposite order evolution states they evolved from nothing.

And stop with the redwood. I never said anything about a redwood tree, you continue to put words in my mouth. You showed me a fish ( have seen before) that has been like that with no proof of any transition, show me that fish not able to do that at one time and evolved into a tetrapod. Too many missing links in living and dead animals.

So your main answer still niche filled.
 
Barbarian observes:
You've been misled on that...

Acanthostega. A fish, complete with internal gills, lateral line system, fine rays, fishy rayed tail, etc. But limbs with digits. Used those digits and legs to walk about on the bottom of shallow ponds. The connection of the limbs to spine were still too weak to support this one on the land.

QUOTE]Instead, fish have slender bony fin rays, which even evolutionists concede are not homologous or related in any way to digits.[/QUOTE]

Surprise.

No, you should know the Acanthostega is considered a tetrapod.

It's a fish. Which happens to have legs. Perfect transitional. The author calls it a tetrapod, only because it has four legs.

Phylogenetic Position of Acanthostega

Most phylogenetic analyses place Acanthostega as one of the most primitive known tetrapods, below Ichthyostega in most trees (eg. Clack 2002b, Ruta et al. 2003). However, it may lie above the recently described Ventastega (Ahlberg and Clack 1998).

The author regrets the move to restrict the vernacular term ‘tetrapod’ to a crown clade (Gauthier et al. 1989), thus forbidding its use in the etymological sense to mean animals with four legs (tetra = four, pod = leg). In this page, the term ‘tetrapod’ and ‘stem-tetrapod’ refer only to vertebrates with limbs and digits. (Refer to the note on the Definition of the taxon Tetrapoda to get more information on this topic.)

http://tolweb.org/Acanthostega

By definition, a vertebrate with internal gills, lateral line system, and rayed fins is a fish.

Barbarian observes:
See above. AIG will lie to you, if they think they can get away with it. Example on request.

I have not seen them lie yet

They edited out a statement by two astronomers to make it look as though they meant the opposite of what they actually said.

Jonathan Sarfati, another frequent contributor to your creationist perspective website, is no better. In his article “Exploding Stars Point to a Young Universe: Where Are All The Supernova Remnants?†first published in Creation Ex Nihilo 19:46-48 and later online at http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i3/stars.asp, Sarfati tries to claim that the absence of Type III supernovas suggests that the universe is young, perhaps a few thousand years old, not billions of years as evolutionary scientists claim. He offers the following quote from Clark and Caswell in Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, 1976, 174:267:

"As the evolutionist astronomers Clark and Caswell say, ‘Why have the large number of expected remnants not been detected?’ and these authors refer to ‘The mystery of the missing remnants’."

Sarfati conveniently forgot to finish the last sentence, which actually appears on page 301. In its entirety, it reads

"…and the mystery of the missing remnants is also solved."
http://aigbusted.blogspot.com/2007/10/deception-of-trueorigin.html

Sarfati, as you might know, is one of the leaders of Answers in Genesis, and posted this dishonesty on its site.

they was comparing the digits of the Tiktaalik to tetrapods the one you listed and the Ichthyostega.

Just pointing out that fish with homologous digits did exist.

For your fish fossil record there is a huge amount of missing links like all the rest of the fossil record.

We can test that. Pick two major groups that are said to be related, and I'll see what I can show you.

(Barbarian regarding the idea that God would just make it look like evolution)
Nope. That would make God out to be a deceiver.

Nope that would make Gods word true, but we know you don't believe that.

The truth matters. God is truth. He wouldn't do any such deception.

Barbarian observes:
As you learned, there's no conflict between creation and evolution. Evolution is just the way He did creation in living things.

Yes everything in evolution is in conflict with the Bible

Not the one God authored.

Barbarian observes:
There aren't two sides here. If you fully accept God, then you accept the way He did creation.

I fully accept God and his word he gave us for
2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Why not just let Him do it His way, then?

Well for instance when Lionnaeus mistakenly classified whales as fish only to find out their fish like shape was only analogy. There has been many cases of this in the history of homology.

Notice that Linnaeus, when he got more data, corrected the error. It's easy to see that whales and fishes are homologous.

Also there are many homologous resemblance that can not be explained by common ancestor. Like the similar pentadactyl design of the terrestrial vertebrats hindlimbs.

Show us that. Why wouldn't that be the result of common ancestry?

The evidence for homology for evolution is not convincing, too many anomalies, counter-instances, and phenomena which don't fit.

Never saw that. Show us some.

The same resemblance that will link all the members of one class to a group also distinguishes that class from all other classes.

Show us.

Barbarian observes:
Except where you don't approve of what He did.

I approve of everything he did.

You don't like the way He created living things.

He created all things of its kind, in the opposite order evolution states they evolved from nothing.

Nope. Where do you get these ideas?

And stop with the redwood. I never said anything about a redwood tree, you continue to put words in my mouth.

Just pointing out the logical error in denying anything you don't live long enough to directly observe.

You showed me a fish ( have seen before) that has been like that with no proof of any transition

So tell me, is Icthyostega a fish or an amphibian, and comparing it to Acanthostega, tell me how you know.

It's still the redwood problem for you.
 
Barbarian observes:
You've been misled on that...

Acanthostega. A fish, complete with internal gills, lateral line system, fine rays, fishy rayed tail, etc. But limbs with digits. Used those digits and legs to walk about on the bottom of shallow ponds. The connection of the limbs to spine were still too weak to support this one on the land.

Instead, fish have slender bony fin rays, which even evolutionists concede are not homologous or related in any way to digits.

Surprise.



It's a fish. Which happens to have legs. Perfect transitional. The author calls it a tetrapod, only because it has four legs.

Phylogenetic Position of Acanthostega

Most phylogenetic analyses place Acanthostega as one of the most primitive known tetrapods, below Ichthyostega in most trees (eg. Clack 2002b, Ruta et al. 2003). However, it may lie above the recently described Ventastega (Ahlberg and Clack 1998).

The author regrets the move to restrict the vernacular term ‘tetrapod’ to a crown clade (Gauthier et al. 1989), thus forbidding its use in the etymological sense to mean animals with four legs (tetra = four, pod = leg). In this page, the term ‘tetrapod’ and ‘stem-tetrapod’ refer only to vertebrates with limbs and digits. (Refer to the note on the Definition of the taxon Tetrapoda to get more information on this topic.)

http://tolweb.org/Acanthostega

By definition, a vertebrate with internal gills, lateral line system, and rayed fins is a fish.

Everything I read claims its a tetrapod. Everybody misled I guess. And perfect, don't think so.

We can test that. Pick two major groups that are said to be related, and I'll see what I can show you.
Sharks and ancestor

(Barbarian regarding the idea that God would just make it look like evolution)
Nope. That would make God out to be a deceiver.
God would be a deceiver because what his word says is true? Many problems there.

The truth matters. God is truth. He wouldn't do any such deception.
Correct God is truth now if you would only believe his word as truth.


Barbarian observes:
As you learned, there's no conflict between creation and evolution. Evolution is just the way He did creation in living things.
Yes there is as you have learned. Whales before land animals and so on, all conflict with evolution. But you don't believe God's word since you don't approve of how he did it you take his word as being false.


Not the one God authored.
Yes you know the book of Genesis where he states he created everything in it's kind in a specific order, the book Jesus states if you do not believe how can you believe him.


Why not just let Him do it His way, then?
He did do it his way, and he tells us all about it. I just enjoy the beauty of it now.

Show us that. Why wouldn't that be the result of common ancestry?
The fact on how they had to arise. Forelimbs from humerus, from pectoral fins, and hindlimbs from femur and pelvic fins. Both hand and foot based on the same design bone wise. Both would have arose independently. Complex pattern arrived twice independently by the evolution process. Problem ignore if you would like.


Never saw that. Show us some.
Homologous structures often come from none homologous genetic systems and can be seldom extended back to embryology. You should know this


Are you really confused on this matter. Would it not if you have two different classes because of two different systems they would be seperated by that system, but yet they all came from common ancestor. Once again huge missing links.


Barbarian observes:
Except where you don't approve of what He did.

Your the one who don't approve of what he told us and decided to not believe his word. So where does evolution stop for you and you fit genesis in its place evolution of apes, they came what in evolution?

You don't like the way He created living things.
I chose to believe what he said you rejected it.


Nope. Where do you get these ideas?
Genesis what you don't believe but say you do you know God's word. Whales before creeping creature and the list goes on.


Just pointing out the logical error in denying anything you don't live long enough to directly observe.
can I not observe a redwood growing? You act like I said I would not believe evolution without seeing spontaneous generation, just looking for something living in the transition process from one group to another. With how old everything is according to you this should be an easy observation. Everything is in this process according to evolutionist but everything is in it's own kind. Apes/apes humans/humans and etc...
But I know the niche is filled


So tell me, is Icthyostega a fish or an amphibian, and comparing it to Acanthostega, tell me how you know.
So are you now calling the Icthyostega a fish and not a tetrapod? You should know better than that.

It's still the redwood problem for you.
No redwood problem for me.
 
Everything I read claims its a tetrapod.

"Tetrapod" means "it has four legs." Because it has internal gills, lateral line system, and rayed fins, it's a fish by definition. It just happens to have four legs.

Everybody misled I guess.

Just you.

And perfect, don't think so.

Perfect transitional. It's a fish. But the lobed fins have evolved sufficiently to form legs with (as you just learned) digits. Exactly what you were told couldn't exist.

Barbarian suggests:
We can test that. Pick two major groups that are said to be related, and I'll see what I can show you.

Sharks and ancestor

Mongolepids.

The scale structure of four genera of the Mongolepidida from the Upper Llandovery of Central Asia is described. Anumber of characters, such as lamelline in odontodes, absence of neck canal in odontodes, mode of crown and base growth, and canal system in scales, suggest that the Mongolepidida is an independant group of lower vertebrates, related to the Chondrichthyes.


(Barbarian regarding the idea that God would just make it look like evolution)
Nope. That would make God out to be a deceiver.

God would be a deceiver because what his word says is true?

God's word doesn't say anything about the issue, but as Paul says, His creation is clear to us. If He faked evidence, that would not be consistent with Who He is.

Many problems there.

It is an insurmountable problem for YE creationism.

Barbarian observes:
As you learned, there's no conflict between creation and evolution. Evolution is just the way He did creation in living things.

Yes there is as you have learned. Whales before land animals and so on, all conflict with evolution.

As you know, Christians have known from the beginning that the order in Genesis is about the aspects of creation, not a literal history. As St. Augustine said, it's absurd to imagine mornings and evenings, with no Sun to have them.

Barbarian observes:
But you don't believe God's word since you don't approve of how he did it you take his word as being false.

Yes you know the book of Genesis where he states he created everything in it's kind in a specific order, the book Jesus states if you do not believe how can you believe him.

Your modern revision, with just a few thousand years, was invented by the Seventh-Day Adventists in the 20th century. It has never been Christian orthodoxy.

Barbarian observes:
Show us that. Why wouldn't that be the result of common ancestry?

The fact on how they had to arise. Forelimbs from humerus, from pectoral fins, and hindlimbs from femur and pelvic fins. Both hand and foot based on the same design bone wise. Both would have arose independently.

Nope. Same Hox gene for both.

Proximal/distal patterning

Hox genes contribute to the specification of the stylopod, zeugopod and autopod. Mutations in Hox genes lead to proximal/distal losses or abnormalities[9].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limb_development

Complex pattern arrived twice independently by the evolution process. Problem ignore if you would like.

See above. You've been misled about that, too. A good, non-technical discussion of the process is in Sean Carroll's Endless Forms Most Beautiful. Read and learn.

Homologous structures often come from none homologous genetic systems and can be seldom extended back to embryology.

Show us.

Are you really confused on this matter. Would it not if you have two different classes because of two different systems they would be seperated by that system, but yet they all came from common ancestor. Once again huge missing links.

But so far, you can't find any of them. Isn't that a clue for you?

Barbarian observes:
Except where you don't approve of what He did.

Your the one who don't approve of what he told us and decided to not believe his word.

Rather, I accept it as it is.

So where does evolution stop for you and you fit genesis in its place evolution of apes, they came what in evolution?

Why does it offend you that God will sometimes us nature to serve His purposes?

Barbarian observes:
Just pointing out the logical error in denying anything you don't live long enough to directly observe.

can I not observe a redwood growing?

You can watch a population evolving. But your argument is that if you can't live long enough to see it happen, it can't happen.

You act like I said I would not believe evolution without seeing spontaneous generation

Which is a little like saying youi won't believe in gravity until you see electricity. You've confused evolution and abiogenesis again.

just looking for something living in the transition process from one group to another.

Platypus. It is transitional between eutherian mammals and reptiles.

With how old everything is according to you this should be an easy observation.

Yep.

Barbarian asks:
So tell me, is Icthyostega a fish or an amphibian, and comparing it to Acanthostega, tell me how you know.

(Declines to say)

If you figure it out, it could be a revelation for you. Think about it.

It's still the redwood problem for you.

No redwood problem for me.

As long as you present the redwood argument, it is.
 
At work don't have time to post but you're perfect transition has problems like number of digits and etc... your theology is very poor. Quoting someone who added infant baptism and a lot of others theological problems don't help it. You can decline the book of Genesis all you want but don't say god choose evolution. If he did he would have said it. Way too many contradictions four evolution to fit into Genesis as you have learned. You say I decline to comment but I stated it was a tetrapod. And you was supposed to show me all the links for shark evolution. Still waiting. And as you have learned people have believed in creation and young earth for a very long time don't know how many times I need to prove this to you with links to historical documents.
Since right now I don't have time to explain everything to you I will leave you some reading material

Sir Gavin says that there is no doubt whatever that the forelimb in the newt and the lizard and the arm of man are strictly homologous,inherited with modification from the pectoral fin of fishes 500 million years ago. The elbow and wrist joints are identical,and their hands end in five fingers. The bones and muscles also correspond. The shock comes when a careful study of their comparative anatomy reveals that they do not occupy the same positions in the body. "The limbs of vertebrates are always formed from material that is contributed from several adjacent segments of the trunk. In the newt,the forelimb is formed from trunk segments 2,3,4,and 5; in the lizard from 6,7,8,and 9; in man from trunk segments 13 to 18 inclusive." He explains how this is determined embryologically and anatomically.

Embryology was de Beer's basis for questioning the validity of homology as evidence for evolution. He said that progress in early embryology made such strides there are two levels on which the relations of homology and embryology can be studied:

1. Level one–the correspondence of places of origin of homologous structures in the fertilized egg or embryo of related species 2. Level two–the induction of tissues to undergo differentiation

At level one,de Beer says that the prospective fates of embryonic structures are well known,and they can be traced back to their place on the egg or young embryo of related species. [de Beer,p. 13] They can be observed and proved by experiment. In other words,the wrongful application of homology by evolutionists has been debunked by the scientific method.

Sir Gavin gives us some examples of this logical approach: use of the scientific method to evaluate evolutionary claims. The alimentary canal in vertebrates can form from:

1. the roof of the embryonic gut cavity (sharks) 2. the floor (lampreys,newts) 3. roof and floor (frogs) 4. the lower layer of the embryonic disc,the blastoderm,that floats on the top of heavily yolked eggs (reptiles,birds)

It is evident that homologous structures are known to develop from varying locations in the egg or embryo,depending on the species. Therefore,says de Beer, if the origin of the homologous structures is not from the same part of the egg or position of the cells in the embryo,then they are not genetically related because they are not under the control of homologous genes. If they are not genetically related,they are not the result of descent with modification from a common ancestor.

He draws the same conclusion from a different set of observations. In one species of Polygordius,a primitive worm (primitive is subjective),the trunk of the future worm develops inside the body of the larva,while in another species,the trunk develops outside the larva as a worm-like extension. The adults of both species are virtually indistinguishable. Similar differences are seen in the development of certain mollusks,although the adults are nearly identical.

At level two de Beer studied homologous relations by inducing embryonic tissues to differentiate by diffusing substances from a master structure called an organizer. One study showed that the dorsal lip of a newt embryo can be grafted anywhere into the body of another embryo and will induce the surrounding tissues to differentiate into all the structures characteristic of a vertebrate embryo. If these tissues had been left undisturbed,they would have differentiated into entirely different structures (notochord,segmental muscle plates,kidney tubules spinal cord, brain with eyes,etc.),proving that the nature of a structure does not depend on the place of origin. This should be very disturbing to those who wish to apply homology to the battery of evidences for evolution. Homologous structures should originate at the same places in all descendants of a common ancestor,otherwise the homology has nothing to do with descent.

In another example,de Beer says that if the optic cup is removed in one species of frog the eye lens will not develop,while in another closely related species the lens does develop. He says it cannot be doubted that the lenses of these two species are homologous,yet they differ completely in their mechanism of determination and differentiation. The genes involved are not homologous.

In summary,he says:

"It is now clear that the pride with which it was assumed that the inheritance of homologous structures from a common ancestor explained homology was misplaced; for such inheritance cannot be ascribed to identity of genes. The attempt to find 'homologous' genes, except in closely related species,has been given up as hopeless."

He understands the logical absurdities,quoting S.C. Harland who said that the genes coding for the homologous structures must have become wholly altered during the evolutionary process! This should alarm geneticists,computer scientists,and linguists. It simply doesn't make sense,and de Beer says so:

"But if it is true that through the genetic code,genes code for enzymes that synthesize proteins which are responsible (in a manner still unknown in embryology) for the differentiation of the various parts of their normal manner,what mechanism can it be that results in the production of homologous organs,the same 'patterns' in spite of their not being controlled by the same genes? I asked this question in 1938, and it has not been answered."
http://www.creationinthecrossfire.com/Articles/Homology.html


Production of similar forms from dissimilar pathways is also common at later stages of development. Many types of animals pass through a larval stage on their way to adulthood,a phenomenon known as indirect development. For example,most frogs begin life as swimming tadpoles,and only later metamorphose into four-legged animals. There are many species of frogs, however,which bypass the larval stage and develop directly. Remarkably,the adults of some of these direct developers are almost indistinguishable from the adults of sister species which develop indirectly. In other words,very similar frogs can be produced by direct and indirect development,even though the pathways are obviously radically different.

The same phenomenon is common among sea urchins and ascidians. (Raff,1996)

Even the classic example of vertebrate limbs shows that homology cannot be explained by similarities in developmental pathways. Skeletal patterns in vertebrate limbs are initially laid down in the form of cartilage condensations, which later ossify into bone. The sequence of cartilage condensation is the developmental pathway which determines the future pattern of bones in the limb. Yet similar bone patterns in different species (i.e.,homologies) arise from different sequences of cartilage condensation. (Shubin,1991) In the words of biologist Richard Hinchliffe: “Embryology does not contribute to comparative morphology by providing evidence of limb homology in the form of an unchanging pattern of condensation common to all tetrapod limbs.” (Hinchliffe,1990,p. 121 [emphasis added])

The constancy of final patterns despite varying pathways has prompted developmental biologist Gunter Wagner to suggest that homology might be due to conserved developmental “constraints”. (Wagner,1989) Wagner’s critics, however,object that this notion is too vague to be useful. Although developmental constraints emphasize the fact that embryos are capable of producing similar end-points by a variety of routes,they do not constitute a naturalistic mechanism accessible to empirical investigation.

So embryology has not solved the problem of homology. In 1958,Gavin de Beer observed that “correspondence between homologous structures cannot be pressed back to similarity of position of the cells in the embryo,or of the parts of the egg out of which the structures are ultimately composed,or of developmental mechanisms by which they are formed.” (de Beer,1958,p. 152 [emphasis added]) Subsequent research has overwhelmingly confirmed the correctness of de Beer’s observation. Homology,whether defined morphologically or phylogenetically, cannot be attributed to similar developmental pathways any more than it can be attributed to similar genes. So far,the naturalistic mechanisms proposed to explain homology do not fit the evidence.

http://www.trueorigin.org/homology.asp
 
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-*
For me, God is in all of it. And as Aquinas pointed out, divine providence can work by contingency just as surely as it can by necessity.



He is active in every particle of the physical universe. That He works it by consistent laws might make it seem that He isn't necessary, but it is consistent only because a rational creature could not otherwise survive in it.


Yeah...

The Natural Laws are god at work, they are the spirit of GOD.
In that sense, the Natural Laws describe God by our observation of His works.

These Natural Laws are an interconnected web of interactions which are in total and instantaneous harmony with one another.
It is because we are showing our ability to understand and mathematically express these Natural Laws that man is, de facto, imaging God at work.
 
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At work don't have time to post but you're perfect transition has problems like number of digits and etc... your theology is very poor. Quoting someone who added infant baptism and a lot of others theological problems don't help it. You can decline the book of Genesis all you want but don't say god choose evolution. If he did he would have said it.


There doesn't seem to be much difference in the Genesis discription of Cosmic Evolution from a beginning which formed the Heavens and all that is now in it, except that the writers did not tag the concept The Big Bang.

Neither our present cosmology nor Genesis tells us why oir even how the appearance of the universe we now observe occurred, only stating the fact that the ancients were wrong thinking it had always been there.

Then we read in Genesis a second act thereafter was to light up the Cosmos with visible light, paralleling what we found to be true.
A Cosmic Dark Age had existed after the Big Bang for 400 million years 8ntil the Stars formed.

The high energy photons in the previous super heated Universe were well above the wave lengths of visible light.

The tale continues to parallel Science in describing the formation of one singular body of water we call the Panthalassic Ocean which surroind just one massive land mass called Rodinia or Pangea, or whatever.

Both science and Genesis tells us the first life appeared and from it the Plant Kingdom came into being, followed second and later by the appearance of Animals and all the members of that kingdom.

Last, man appears.

Whether the priocess used was supernatural magic of evolution seems irrelevent to th two vert similar tales found in two different disciplines, Theology and science.
 
At work don't have time to post but you're perfect transition has problems like number of digits

Polydactyly is surprisingly common in humans, and is the norm in some large dog breeds. It's not genetically determined. Would you like to learn how it works?

You can decline the book of Genesis all you want but don't say god choose evolution.

As you learned, there is no conflict between Genesis and evolution. Why does it bother you so that God chose to do it this way?

If he did he would have said it.

So you're argument is that protons don't exist because God didn't tell us about them?

You say I decline to comment but I stated it was a tetrapod.

I asked a question, and you declined to answer. Are you willing to answer now? I'll ask again, in case you forgot:
So tell me, is Icthyostega a fish or an amphibian, and comparing it to Acanthostega, tell me how you know.

And you was supposed to show me all the links for shark evolution.

You wanted a transitional between sharks and more primitive fish. And I gave you one. With a cite.

And as you have learned people have believed in creation and young earth for a very long time don't know how many times I need to prove this to you with links to historical documents.

Of course they believed in creation. But YE creationism hadn't been invented yet, so they weren't YE creationists. Even if some of them thought the world was young. Historically, YE wasn't the norm. The great Baptist minister Charles Spurgeon acknowledged the fact:

"In the 2d verse of the first chapter of Genesis, we read, ‘And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.' We know not how remote the period of the creation of this globe may be-certainly many millions of years before the time of Adam. Our planet has passed through various stages of existence, and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface, all of which have been fashioned by God. But before that era came, wherein man should be its principal tenant and monarch, the Creator gave up the world to confusion."
-- Charles Haddon Spurgeon. Sermon delivered on Sunday, June 17, 1855 at New Park Street Chapel.

Sir Gavin says that there is no doubt whatever that the forelimb in the newt and the lizard and the arm of man are strictly homologous,inherited with modification from the pectoral fin of fishes 500 million years ago. The elbow and wrist joints are identical,and their hands end in five fingers. The bones and muscles also correspond. The shock comes when a careful study of their comparative anatomy reveals that they do not occupy the same positions in the body. "The limbs of vertebrates are always formed from material that is contributed from several adjacent segments of the trunk. In the newt,the forelimb is formed from trunk segments 2,3,4,and 5; in the lizard from 6,7,8,and 9; in man from trunk segments 13 to 18 inclusive." He explains how this is determined embryologically and anatomically.

Not surprising. The addition or deletion of body segments in chordates is well-known. Humans and horses, for example, may have one, giving them an extra pair of ribs. What's even more interesting, is the sorting of this order fits the evolutionary tree derived from several other sources of information. I'm surprised people are still trotting out that old misunderstanding.

DeBeer's stories were written in the early 70s, when we couldn't directly test for genes. As I mentioned before, much of this can be made clear to you, if you'd read something a bit more up to date:
Carroll, Sean B. 2005. Endless Forms Most Beautiful. New York: W. W. Norton

One thing genetic analysis has demonstrated, is that tissues arise from generalized embyonic structures through signalling chemicals. If the chemical is expressed in a different location, then the expected structure develops from there.

"But if it is true that through the genetic code,genes code for enzymes that synthesize proteins which are responsible (in a manner still unknown in embryology) for the differentiation of the various parts of their normal manner,what mechanism can it be that results in the production of homologous organs,the same 'patterns' in spite of their not being controlled by the same genes? I asked this question in 1938, and it has not been answered."
http://www.creationinthecrossfire.co.../Homology.html

DeBeers assumed that they weren't. But recent research, showing the actual genes involved, demonstrates that they do.

It might help you, if you looked at some of the research in the last twenty or thirty years. What was a mystery in the Nixon administration, is often clearly understood today. Just saying...

Read Carroll's book and come on back, and we'll talk about it.
 
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