Evolution The Other Religion 2013

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

Barbarian, how can you say I am not explaining how God says death is bad - did you read post 36? It is proven by the Scriptures. To recap; death is from Adam, not God. God calls death an enemy. God sends Jesus to free us from and taste for us death. Death goes into the Lake of Fire at the end with the Devil - why would God give the Devil something good in the Lake of Fire, and why would God deny us something good in Heaven? What I have posted is complete already, there is no need further to respond on this. It won't get any clearer.
Perhaps you mean that how can God call death an enemy if we still leave our bodies? It is the same reason why God had to send Jesus to fix what Adam did. He couldn't use an unrighteous man, it had to be a righteous man, the same as Adam was, so He sent Jesus. In the same way, He cannot keep our bodies as they are alive - they must be recreated. When we were born again, it was our spirits that were reborn. We are each a spirit with a soul (mind, will, emotions) that lives in a body. Only the spirit is reborn thus far. The body is not, and the mind is not, that's why God says in Romans 12:1-2 to renew our MINDS with the Word of God. But we don't get our new bodies until the resurrection, the same way Jesus got His. He is the blueprint for the resurrection, so that is why we do not get our new body (which is the exact likeness of the one He got) until the resurrection.
There. It's done, I will not post any more about death being God's (and ours) enemy.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian, how can you say I am not explaining how God says death is bad - did you read post 36? It is proven by the Scriptures. To recap; death is from Adam, not God. God calls death an enemy. God sends Jesus to free us from and taste for us death. Death goes into the Lake of Fire at the end with the Devil - why would God give the Devil something good in the Lake of Fire, and why would God deny us something good in Heaven?

You still avoid explaining why, if death is bad, God will have all of us die, eventually. There's no way to get around that. For a Christian, death is not the enemy; God's plan for us is never bad.

There, it's done, I will not post any more about death being God's (and ours) enemy.

Probably a good idea. I don't see any way out of the dilemma for you.

 

[Hatuey]

Barbarian, how can you say I am not explaining how God says death is bad - did you read post 36? It is proven by the Scriptures. To recap; death is from Adam, not God. God calls death an enemy. God sends Jesus to free us from and taste for us death. Death goes into the Lake of Fire at the end with the Devil - why would God give the Devil something good in the Lake of Fire, and why would God deny us something good in Heaven? What I have posted is complete already, there is no need further to respond on this. It won't get any clearer.
Perhaps you mean that how can God call death an enemy if we still leave our bodies? It is the same reason why God had to send Jesus to fix what Adam did. He couldn't use an unrighteous man, it had to be a righteous man, the same as Adam was, so He sent Jesus. In the same way, He cannot keep our bodies as they are alive - they must be recreated. When we were born again, it was our spirits that were reborn. We are each a spirit with a soul (mind, will, emotions) that lives in a body. Only the spirit is reborn thus far. The body is not, and the mind is not, that's why God says in Romans 12:1-2 to renew our MINDS with the Word of God. But we don't get our new bodies until the resurrection, the same way Jesus got His. He is the blueprint for the resurrection, so that is why we do not get our new body (which is the exact likeness of the one He got) until the resurrection.
There. It's done, I will not post any more about death being God's (and ours) enemy.

Accepting that Adam somehow brought the consequence of death to humanity, who designed the process?

 

[Deborah13]

Accepting that Adam somehow brought the consequence of death to humanity, who designed the process?

The process in my view is this, God created man in His own likeness. God gave man the freedom of choice, man is not a robot.
God,as the designer, also has rules of how things will proceed, in the universe and on earth. God is not the author of chaos.

 

[Hatuey]

The process in my view is this, God created man in His own likeness. God gave man the freedom of choice, man is not a robot.
God,as the designer, also has rules of how things will proceed, in the universe and on earth. God is not the author of chaos.

I still don't understand. Are you saying that god designed the process by which death would occur, but man choose it, somehow? One of the reasons that I reject Christianity, by the way, is that god could have given every person the choice that apparently Adam made for everyone. Adam's situation doesn't seem fair in any way, but even so, why not give every person a shot at making that decision instead of just the great great granddaddy?

Many scripture verses and doctrines put forth the view that god controls all things and so, in some way, EVERYTHING is "robotic," in that it could never happen anyway except the way god foresaw and foreknew. It seems to be one of those issues that Christians on both sides of the issue have plenty of "scriptural evidence" for with no real way to test for any measurable conclusion that could be verifiably determined.

What is the purpose of your statement about god and chaos?

 

[Deborah13]

I still don't understand. Are you saying that god designed the process by which death would occur, but man choose it, somehow? One of the reasons that I reject Christianity, by the way, is that god could have given every person the choice that apparently Adam made for everyone. Adam's situation doesn't seem fair in any way, but even so, why not give every person a shot at making that decision instead of just the great great granddaddy?

He does.

Many scripture verses and doctrines put forth the view that god controls all things and so, in some way, EVERYTHING is "robotic," in that it could never happen anyway except the way god foresaw and foreknew. It seems to be one of those issues that Christians on both sides of the issue have plenty of "scriptural evidence" for with no real way to test for any measurable conclusion that could be verifiably determined.

What is the purpose of your statement about god and chaos?

Without rules there is chaos. Even science has rules of how things work, does it not. All designed by God, by the way.

 

[Hatuey]

He does.



Without rules there is chaos. Even science has rules of how things work, does it not. All designed by God, by the way.

That is not my understanding of scripture and certainly not the way many Christians interpret it. From a common sense standpoint, other than Adam, no person has ever known of another person who faced Adam's choice in the garden. That's what makes the story unique/special.

Yes, I understood your comment about chaos. I still do not understand why you made it here, on this topic.

 

[Deborah13]

That is not my understanding of scripture and certainly not the way many Christians interpret it. From a common sense standpoint, other than Adam, no person has ever known of another person who faced Adam's choice in the garden. That's what makes the story unique/special.

Yes, I understood your comment about chaos. I still do not understand why you made it here, on this topic.

First my comment about chaos was in regard to who designed the process that you questioned in post #43.

What do you believe was Adam's choice in the garden? What do you believe most Christians understand about Adam's choice in the garden?
I can only tell you what I believe, I cannot speak for all Christians but I believe I am pretty traditional about most things anyway.

 

[Hatuey]

First my comment about chaos was in regard to who designed the process that you questioned in post #43.

What do you believe was Adam's choice in the garden? What do you believe most Christians understand about Adam's choice in the garden?
I can only tell you what I believe, I cannot speak for all Christians but I believe I am pretty traditional about most things anyway.

Oh, I see. I guess it seems weird to me that god would design the bad-not-good?? process by which death takes place, when many Christians believe that all god created was "good."

Adam had the choice to join Eve in her fallen state or to continue with god but without his bride. I believe that most Christians do not think every person has the same choice Adam had since none of us were ever in that position with the fate of the universe resting on our uneducated (in "good and evil") decision.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

I still don't understand. Are you saying that god designed the process by which death would occur, but man choose it, somehow? One of the reasons that I reject Christianity, by the way, is that god could have given every person the choice that apparently Adam made for everyone. Adam's situation doesn't seem fair in any way, but even so, why not give every person a shot at making that decision instead of just the great great granddaddy?

Many scripture verses and doctrines put forth the view that god controls all things and so, in some way, EVERYTHING is "robotic," in that it could never happen anyway except the way god foresaw and foreknew. It seems to be one of those issues that Christians on both sides of the issue have plenty of "scriptural evidence" for with no real way to test for any measurable conclusion that could be verifiably determined.

What is the purpose of your statement about god and chaos?

By your own logic I demand you return to your parents EVERYTHING they ever gave you. You should have been born and then ripped away from your parents and lived in a cardboard box somewhere off whatever you could scrape up. There should be no protection/benefits/good things given to you by your parents, the USA government or anyone other than yourself. For after all, it isn't fair that you ever got anything you didn't earn yourself directly.

 

[Hatuey]

By your own logic I demand you return to your parents EVERYTHING they ever gave you. You should have been born and then ripped away from your parents and lived in a cardboard box somewhere off whatever you could scrape up. There should be no protection/benefits/good things given to you by your parents, the USA government or anyone other than yourself. For after all, it isn't fair that you ever got anything you didn't earn yourself directly.

I don't understand the reasoning you're using to put forth this perspective. A concept either makes sense to me based on my experiences or it doesn't or it seems silly.

 

[agua.]

Oh, I see. I guess it seems weird to me that god would design the bad-not-good?? process by which death takes place, when many Christians believe that all god created was "good."

Adam had the choice to join Eve in her fallen state or to continue with god but without his bride. I believe that most Christians do not think every person has the same choice Adam had since none of us were ever in that position with the fate of the universe resting on our uneducated (in "good and evil") decision.

This is an interesting concept suggesting Adam followed Eve to avoid being without her. Where did you learn this ?

Every person has the same opportunity Adam had to choose life. Adam wasn't "uneducated" about his choice where did you learn this ?

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

For that matter, you also would have to return anything ever given to you as a gift, for by your own logic you did not determine the process by which you received it, nor did you do anything to earn it, so you would have to give it back to be intellectually honest.

 

[Hatuey]

This is an interesting concept suggesting Adam followed Eve to avoid being without her. Where did you learn this ?

Every person has the same opportunity Adam had to choose life. Adam wasn't "uneducated" about his choice where did you learn this ?

I did not say what Adam's motive was. Please reread what I wrote. I explained what DECISION he faced. He could follow her into sin, or remain sinless without her.

Adam was uneducated about what was "evil" since he had not yet eaten of the fruit that would provide him that ability. He certainly was uneducated as to the full consequences thousands of generations later. As a Christian, here, keeps trying to tell me on another topic, "If you (Adam in this case) really understood the situation, you'd not make that choice."

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

Hatuey, I am trying to get you to see that you did nothing to earn anything from your parents, nor earn any of the benefits you enjoy of living in the USA (or whatever country you live in) - you didn't earn that country's protection or economic system that presents you with economic opportunities, etc.

You are saying that because you didn't earn what Adam did, or you didn't choose to be a sinner but you still became one because of him, you say it's "unfair". But if you call that unfair, I don't see you saying it's "unfair" that you ever got anything from your parents or that it is unfair that you enjoy any of the privileges that come from living in whatever country you live in, such as protection or economic opportunities...why are you not crying foul about that, because your argument is that if you didn't earn it/choose it on your own, then you should not have it....

Everyone likes to try to blame God saying it's unfair that Adam made them a sinner, but no one is saying they should have all privileges and gifts removed from them that they didn't earn or choose...

 

[Hatuey]

For that matter, you also would have to return anything ever given to you as a gift, for by your own logic you did not determine the process by which you received it, nor did you do anything to earn it, so you would have to give it back to be intellectually honest.

I'm not debating "fairness" with you, Curse, since that is not the topic. I simply described ONE source of insurmountable incredulity I face squarely when it comes to the Christian perspective. Also, you may want to read my last reply to you, again.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

The great thing is, that you can enjoy the fruit of what Jesus did for you at the cross, though you did nothing to earn it or deserve it. You can choose to remain dead in your sins and be separate from God the Father for all time and eternity, OR you can choose to pass from death into life and be reborn into the exact image of Jesus and enjoy personal fellowship with Him and the Father. Who would turn that down?

 

[Hatuey]

Hatuey, I am trying to get you to see that you did nothing to earn anything from your parents, nor earn any of the benefits you enjoy of living in the USA (or whatever country you live in) - you didn't earn that country's protection or economic system that presents you with economic opportunities, etc.

You are saying that because you didn't earn what Adam did, or you didn't choose to be a sinner but you still became one because of him, you say it's "unfair". But if you call that unfair, I don't see you saying it's "unfair" that you ever got anything from your parents or that it is unfair that you enjoy any of the privileges that come from living in whatever country you live in, such as protection or economic opportunities...why are you not crying foul about that, because your argument is that if you didn't earn it/choose it on your own, then you should not have it....

Everyone likes to try to blame God saying it's unfair that Adam made them a sinner, but no one is saying they should have all privileges and gifts removed from them that they didn't earn or choose...

Yes, I can tell that's what you're trying to show.

Yes, I think most things about life are unfair, including events beneficial to my existence.

I'm not blaming god for anything since I am not a believer. I also don't blame Santa for not getting me gifts, just so you know.

 

[Hatuey]

The great thing is, that you can enjoy the fruit of what Jesus did for you at the cross, though you did nothing to earn it or deserve it. You can choose to remain dead in your sins and be separate from God the Father for all time and eternity, OR you can choose to pass from death into life and be reborn into the exact image of Jesus and enjoy personal fellowship with Him and the Father. Who would turn that down?

Even if Christ's gift actually existed, I would not accept it because I would rather doubt my own reasoning than be a part of what I believe god enjoys in regards to eternal punishment.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

You said it makes sense to you based on your experience.....a person's opinion is worthless, no matter who they are; yours, mine, everyone's. The only thing that matters is what is TRUE. Truth is the only thing that will change someone's life. Opinions will spoil you.
Colossians 2:8 in the Amplified Bible, "8 See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit (idle fancies and plain nonsense), following human tradition (men’s ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world), just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding [the teachings of] Christ (the Messiah)."

Man's ideas will kill you, the Truth of God will give you life and set you free.
And just as you knew nothing about your parents when you born but relied on them for everything and came to learn through them, much more so and perfectly at that is God calling you to come to Him and become His own child and then He will be able to teach you all the Truth and make you free in every way.