Evolution The Other Religion 2013

[Hatuey]

I am 35 now, when I was 22 I considered myself and atheist; I did much research into all things related to faith. I went around trying to disprove Jesus' existence and God's. I tried to convince people they were of extraordinary stupidity to believe in God and Jesus. I was harsh.
One day the thought popped into my head that perhaps the reason I have never known God is because I never actually gave Him the chance.
So I went to church, thought it was all right, wasn't for me.
3 weeks later, through a series of circumstances, I found myself strongly desiring to go back, though I knew not what for, for I had never known anything about a personal relationship with God where you actually hear Him or feel Him.
So I went, and I surrendered myself to God, reaching out for Him during worship, though, again, I had no idea what I was doing. God's Holy Spirit came into the room like a flash flood of majesty and love. I burst into tears and crumpled to the floor, weeping in His presence. I did not need anyone to tell me He was there. I repented of wasting my life up to that point and apologized for my efforts to hurt others' faith in Him and Jesus. I had never known love like His. Nothing was even close.
It seemed to go on for a very long time. Later that night I had a dream with the Father and then another with Jesus Himself. 2 days later I committed to follow Jesus forever, and I was saved.

My grandfather, who was an atheist until about 2 hours before he died and went to Heaven, praise God, had similar things to say when I first tried to bring him to Christ, trusting in man's arguments and unwilling to let God show him the Truth. But in the end, He received Jesus.

Why waste your life in some lie, why not give the Father the chance to answer your questions somehow. Saying, "Father, I return to you, and there are some questions I have, things that on the surface don't seem to add up, but I know You are the Truth, so please lead me into having these questions answered, and I believe I receive the answers now in Jesus' name, thank You."

Your story sounds very familiar. What god belief might you have if you were raised in a society 3,000 years ago with a different god belief than the society in which you were raised that believes in the god you currently believe in? I reject your god for the exact same reason that you AND ME reject all other gods.

 

[Hatuey]

I don't think so...we are in the discussion and debate section....I'm pretty sure you're safe.

I think the reasons are the exact same reasons you would have if the story of biblegod were presented to you from a different culture with a different name for "bible" and "god." For instance, if it the book were called "Parnilax," and the god were called "Vern."

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

Hey, I was brought up in a Catholic church that knew pretty much nothing about the Bible, as evidenced by the actions of the priest and what he taught, and as such, I was never drawn to Jesus. I came to calling myself an atheist.

But then I reached out to God; Jesus was knocking on my heart and I answered. I met the REAL Jesus, not the one presented by man's opinions.
I came to know Him much better through His Word and spending time with Him. I refused all of the Devil's chains cleverly disguised as man's opinions and traditions and lies, even his usage of the Scriptures, as He tried to do to Jesus. But I refused and stood on the Bible.
All I see is that God is very good. He has been to me, and He says so in His Word. I have learned to stand on His Word and get His results.

So even though I was sold the lies about God at the beginning, God got me to the Truth. He is wanting to bring you back as well.

 

[Hatuey]

Hey, I was brought up in a Catholic church that knew pretty much nothing about the Bible, as evidenced by the actions of the priest and what he taught, and as such, I was never drawn to Jesus. I came to calling myself an atheist.

But then I reached out to God; Jesus was knocking on my heart and I answered. I met the REAL Jesus, not the one presented by man's opinions.
I came to know Him much better through His Word and spending time with Him. I refused all of the Devil's chains cleverly disguised as man's opinions and traditions and lies, even his usage of the Scriptures, as He tried to do to Jesus. But I refused and stood on the Bible.
All I see is that God is very good. He has been to me, and He says so in His Word. I have learned to stand on His Word and get His results.

So even though I was sold the lies about God at the beginning, God got me to the Truth. He is wanting to bring you back as well.

You came to believe in the god most believed in and presented to you by your culture, correct? In Saudia Arabia, when a "rebellious backslider" comes back to god, or discovers the goodness of god, which one do you think he believes is real and affecting his life?

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

God was not presented to me by "my culture". He was presented to me initially by the Catholic church I grew up near. Then I came to God later, attracted to Him. He drew me to Him, though I realized it not. I know Him personally. I continually abide in His presence every day. I have had marvelous times of deep fellowship with Him. I walk in His ways, I KNOW Him, not about Him. I don't talk TO Him, I speak WITH Him, and He answers me directly. He is good. He is just waiting for you to turn around and look into His face again. He's right there. Forget everything you been going in for 20 years. Turn to Jesus right NOW, I guarantee if you do it in faith, He'll be there. Open up to Him; if you seek Him like buried treasure, He's promised He would show up. If I buried $20 million in gold coins in your yard, I guarantee you wouldn't stop until you found it. Do the same with Him. Be blessed. Come home. Read Luke 14 again. He's looking for your return EVERY day.

 

[agua.]

I did not say what Adam's motive was. Please reread what I wrote. I explained what DECISION he faced. He could follow her into sin, or remain sinless without her.

Oky doky . The only thing we're told is that Adam disobeyed the directive from Yahweh and ate the fruit.

Adam was uneducated about what was "evil" since he had not yet eaten of the fruit that would provide him that ability. He certainly was uneducated as to the full consequences thousands of generations later. As a Christian, here, keeps trying to tell me on another topic, "If you (Adam in this case) really understood the situation, you'd not make that choice."

Adam must have understood the consequences of his actions don't you think unless you're suggesting he didn't know what death was ? I don't follow the reasoning that if we really understand consequences that we won't make bad choices eg. There's ~ 3 million smokers in Australia.

 

[Hatuey]

God was not presented to me by "my culture". He was presented to me initially by the Catholic church I grew up near. Then I came to God later, attracted to Him. He drew me to Him, though I realized it not. I know Him personally. I continually abide in His presence every day. I have had marvelous times of deep fellowship with Him. I walk in His ways, I KNOW Him, not about Him. I don't talk TO Him, I speak WITH Him, and He answers me directly. He is good. He is just waiting for you to turn around and look into His face again. He's right there. Forget everything you been going in for 20 years. Turn to Jesus right NOW, I guarantee if you do it in faith, He'll be there. Open up to Him; if you seek Him like buried treasure, He's promised He would show up. If I buried $20 million in gold coins in your yard, I guarantee you wouldn't stop until you found it. Do the same with Him. Be blessed. Come home. Read Luke 14 again. He's looking for your return EVERY day.

That's not a very good dodge. Your culture's god is the god of the bible and is the one you would naturally turn to exactly as a young man in Yemen would turn to the Koran and Allah.

I disagree with your definition of "know."

I would never look for the gold coins unless I was convinced you buried them in the first place. Belief is not a choice, it's a compulsion. I do not find the reasons for believing in the god of the bible to be compelling.

From my many, many readings of the bible, I do not judge him to be "good" because of his behavior/decisions.

 

[Hatuey]

Oky doky . The only thing we're told is that Adam disobeyed the directive from Yahweh and ate the fruit.



Adam must have understood the consequences of his actions don't you think unless you're suggesting he didn't know what death was ? I don't follow the reasoning that if we really understand consequences that we won't make bad choices eg. There's ~ 3 million smokers in Australia.

Yes, but you seem to imply earlier that there was more to it than that. Which is it? Why are you spending time trying to convince me that Adam knew what he was doing when the scripture does not say that while at the same time using the opposite argument when it comes to the decision he faced when eating the fruit? If the scripture doesn't definitively state either, then why are you arguing for AND against logical reasoning based on what is stated? You can't have it both ways.

No, no one understands what death is. Adam would have been least equipped of anyone since he had never experienced it in any way---not even second hand, as do we. Yes, people make poor decisions even when they know the consequences, but that's not what we are discussing. We are discussing the fact that (sans 'magic') there was no way for Adam to know about "evil" before absorbing the fruit that gave him the knowledge of "evil." Does someone know what chocolate tastes like before they have ever had any? No. That's the entire point of the tree, the sin, and the fall.

 

[Deborah13]

That's not a very good dodge. Your culture's god is the god of the bible and is the one you would naturally turn to exactly as a young man in Yemen would turn to the Koran and Allah.

I disagree with your definition of "know."

I would never look for the gold coins unless I was convinced you buried them in the first place. Belief is not a choice, it's a compulsion. I do not find the reasons for believing in the god of the bible to be compelling.

From my many, many readings of the bible, I do not judge him to be "good" because of his behavior/decisions.

Much like a child does not judge their mother to be good when she spanks his little bottom for running out in the road?

 

[Hatuey]

Much like a child does not judge their mother to be good when she spanks his little bottom for running out in the road?

No, because, using your analogy, I do not believe the "mother" exists or have felt the "spanking." I do find your need to scramble a hasty excuse of simple rationalization quite telling, though.

 

[Deborah13]

No, because, using your analogy, I do not believe the "mother" exists or have felt the "spanking." I do find your need to scramble a hasty excuse of simple rationalization quite telling, though.

So by your reasoning, you cannot judge a 'god' that you do not believe exists and will not believe that any correction that you might/have, receive/received, comes/came from the 'god' that you do not believe in.

 

[agua.]

Yes, but you seem to imply earlier that there was more to it than that. Which is it? Why are you spending time trying to convince me that Adam knew what he was doing when the scripture does not say that while at the same time using the opposite argument when it comes to the decision he faced when eating the fruit? If the scripture doesn't definitively state either, then why are you arguing for AND against logical reasoning based on what is stated? You can't have it both ways.

Oh don't get you Hatuey. Yahweh told Adam about the consequences of disobedience and that he would die. Do you suggest Adam didn't understand ?

No, no one understands what death is. Adam would have been least equipped of anyone since he had never experienced it in any way---not even second hand, as do we. Yes, people make poor decisions even when they know the consequences, but that's not what we are discussing. We are discussing the fact that (sans 'magic') there was no way for Adam to know about "evil" before absorbing the fruit that gave him the knowledge of "evil." Does someone know what chocolate tastes like before they have ever had any? No. That's the entire point of the tree, the sin, and the fall.

[/quote]

I suggest if Yahweh told Adam he would die it's logical to think Adam knew what that meant. Are you taking the position that the death that entered the world because of the fall was upon all animals and not just man made in Yahweh's image ? Also do you suggest evil is an entity or a condition ?

 

[Hatuey]

Oh don't get you Hatuey. Yahweh told Adam about the consequences of disobedience and that he would die. Do you suggest Adam didn't understand ?

I suggest if Yahweh told Adam he would die it's logical to think Adam knew what that meant. Are you taking the position that the death that entered the world because of the fall was upon all animals and not just man made in Yahweh's image ? Also do you suggest evil is an entity or a condition ?[/quote]


Yes, I am saying that Adam did not understand. If you have never seen the color red, and I tell you that if you open the drawer on my desk you will see a red paper, and I describe "red" to you, you will still not understand what "red" is until you see it for yourself. Did Adam and Eve gain knowledge about good and evil after eating the fruit, or was the fruit ONLY a trap that did not do what god said it would do concerning their understanding of good and evil?

I don't think anyone knows what it is to die, especially Adam, since he had never even seen it affect anyone, at all, ever.

Yes, scripture seems to support the idea that sin and death entered all creation because of Adam's fall.

I do not think that evil exists as an entity or a condition, though in this conversation we are discussing the biblical perspective, and that would seem to indicate "condition," though we can certainly find plenty of Christians who believe contrary to each other no matter the position you might take on "condition versus entity."

 

[Hatuey]

So by your reasoning, you cannot judge a 'god' that you do not believe exists and will not believe that any correction that you might/have, receive/received, comes/came from the 'god' that you do not believe in.

I do not judge any gods. I judge the character of various gods that are presented to me by their believers. I judge the character of fictitious movie heroes/villains in the same way. I assume that when you watch Superman, you are able to make determinations about his "character" based on the movie that you know is fictitious?

 

[agua.]

Yes, I am saying that Adam did not understand. If you have never seen the color red, and I tell you that if you open the drawer on my desk you will see a red paper, and I describe "red" to you, you will still not understand what "red" is until you see it for yourself. Did Adam and Eve gain knowledge about good and evil after eating the fruit, or was the fruit ONLY a trap that did not do what god said it would do concerning their understanding of good and evil?

I don't think anyone knows what it is to die, especially Adam, since he had never even seen it affect anyone, at all, ever.

If Yahweh told Adam he would die after disobeying it's logical to assume he knew what this meant. Yahweh is just. Do you understand the Gospel message ?

Yes, scripture seems to support the idea that sin and death entered all creation because of Adam's fall.

The only scripture I know of that tells us about the consequences of the fall says death came to all men. Which scripture says death came to animals because of sin of Adam ?

I do not think that evil exists as an entity or a condition, though in this conversation we are discussing the biblical perspective, and that would seem to indicate "condition," though we can certainly find plenty of Christians who believe contrary to each other no matter the position you might take on "condition versus entity."

Yeah I also suggest evil is a condition of sin in the same way as heat is a condition of fire.

 

[agua.]

I do not judge any gods. I judge the character of various gods that are presented to me by their believers. I judge the character of fictitious movie heroes/villains in the same way. I assume that when you watch Superman, you are able to make determinations about his "character" based on the movie that you know is fictitious?

Careful where you tread Hatuey. Yahweh isn't fictitious .

 

[Rick W]

The fact remains nobody can "prove" God. Especially by logical analysis or judgment through any scientific method.
The problem here is it's not a matter of physical evidence. We have testimony by those who loved Him but then here again we can't prove they testify of any deity that exists proven by irrefutable evidence.
It's a matter of the heart. I can't prove my love for my wife. I can testify of it, I can act or do things that seem to appear that I do but in the end it's up to the hearts of other to decide if that love exists or not.
Yes, I can prove my wife exists. I can prove I'm married to her by the law of the land. But what I can't prove is the spirit in which that love exists.
The acceptable scientific method can be repeated, the results reproduced. Love, God's love for us or our love for Him, doesn't follow such repeatable processes. I cannot say to someone, do this or do that and the love of God will come upon you. In the end it's just not a repeatable, replicating process.
The bible is the story of God's pursuit of the heats of men. And the hearts of men do not abide the laws of science.

 

[Hatuey]

If Yahweh told Adam he would die after disobeying it's logical to assume he knew what this meant. Yahweh is just. Do you understand the Gospel message ?

Yes, I understand the gospel message. Why is my difference of opinion on what Adam knew so troublesome to you?

The only scripture I know of that tells us about the consequences of the fall says death came to all men. Which scripture says death came to animals because of sin of Adam ?

Most Christians I know consider Genesis 3: 17 and 18 to cover the animals and the rest of creation with the ground and plants. There is at least one more scripture that I partly remember that confirms the reading of those believers, but I am not motivated to find it, now. I assume you could do so if it was of that much interest to you?

Yeah I also suggest evil is a condition of sin in the same way as heat is a condition of fire.

Ok?

 

[Hatuey]

Careful where you tread Hatuey. Yahweh isn't fictitious .

I judge him in the same way as I judge a fictitious character, and I would believe he was not fictitious if I was compelled to believe he was more than so.

 

[Hatuey]

The fact remains nobody can "prove" God. Especially by logical analysis or judgment through any scientific method.
The problem here is it's not a matter of physical evidence. We have testimony by those who loved Him but then here again we can't prove they testify of any deity that exists proven by irrefutable evidence.
It's a matter of the heart. I can't prove my love for my wife. I can testify of it, I can act or do things that seem to appear that I do but in the end it's up to the hearts of other to decide if that love exists or not.
Yes, I can prove my wife exists. I can prove I'm married to her by the law of the land. But what I can't prove is the spirit in which that love exists.
The acceptable scientific method can be repeated, the results reproduced. Love, God's love for us or our love for Him, doesn't follow such repeatable processes. I cannot say to someone, do this or do that and the love of God will come upon you. In the end it's just not a repeatable, replicating process.
The bible is the story of God's pursuit of the heats of men. And the hearts of men do not abide the laws of science.

Correct. I believe many things by faith which I have been compelled to believe for one reason or another, but such is not the case with the god of the bible...for me.