[_ Old Earth _] Evolution

[Adam]

That's not what the text says.

Please do not ruin scripture by putting this nonsense in.

 

[Barbarian]

Eccl 3:21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

Yes, men BECAME a living soul after God breathed into his nostrils.

So no problem with evolution. Our bodies were brought forth by nature. Our souls were directly given by God.

If He had evolved, then God did not breathed.

That's not what scripture says. If you have to add to God's word to make it acceptable to you, isn't that an important clue?

So, I had to ask you the same question you asked "Why are you reluctant to accept God's word?"

You are not God. Nor is your revision, God's word.

You're still unwilling to accept His word as it is.

 

[cupid dave]

So no problem with evolution. Our bodies were brought forth by nature. Our souls were directly given by God.



That's not what scripture says. If you have to add to God's word to make it acceptable to you, isn't that an important clue?



You are not God. Nor is your revision, God's word.

You're still unwilling to accept His word as it is.

Its OK...

There are now 12 major mainstream denominational Christian interpretations and sakes pitches on the table, all eager to attract membership from the next generation in order to rebuild and enlarge their congregations.
These are the twelve walls of the New Jerusalem evermore centered in Middle America.

Theistic Evolution is the thirteenth hypothesis to have been placed inside the temple.

Let every man choose for himself, and the future will bear witness to a rapture into the singulaar state iof universal Ecumenucalism when facts, science, knowledge, academics, and the Bible melt and blend into one singular Truth that will last forever.




Matt18:20



Forwhere two (people) or (even) three (whole different denominationalcongregations?) are gathered together in my name, (Truth), there am I, (the sonof Reality, the Father of the real world we live in), in the midst of them.



What is important now is that all 13 ideas be well disseminated throughout the cyberspace.

Matthew 13:39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels, (messengers).

 

[cupid dave]

what would Jesus say about evolution?
The story of the taxescomes to mind. Or even the wine story, he made more?
He went with observationsin these cases to me.

I believe the story of the water into wine was a hint to us that Jesus was clouding men's minds with the power of mesmerizing people en masse.

I do not think magic was occurring, nor that God works wonders outside the realm of His own Natural Laws.

I also believe that the Bible is telling us of things that are actually rationally possible occurrence or else to somewhat exaggerated report from observes amazed at the particular phenomenon they saw, and reporting it with all the wonder we would also if to us, it was an impossible feat.
This wine to water thing is what supports the hypothesis that Jesus had discover Hypnosis, even before John had baptized him, perhaps.

 

[Aloysium]

-newly formed earth (a few hundred million years old) is abundant with water and nutrients from asteroid impacts (although some nutrients are toxic)
-CO2 layer and other gases in atmosphere start to warm planet
-first protein is formed (it is important to realise that this is NOT life yet, only a very complex molecule)
-more proteins are formed, as well as more complex molecules such as glucose.
-cell-like structures which can convert CO2 to O2 whilst creating glucose slowly form from the mixture of molecules. (scientists believe that these were very primitive algae)
-sufficient O2 in atmosphere after a few million years of photosynthesising, bacteria start to form in nutrient rich seas.
-some bacteria photosynthesise like the algae, some start to use the O2 to create glucose and release CO2, start of the carbon cycle.
-eventually unicellular organisms move closer to shore (due to overcrowding near the middle of oceans) where they are exposed to greater levels of O2.
-more O2 is more beneficial, so primitive gills start to form
-organisms now able to produce more glucose as gills are more efficient, excess energy, first multicellular organisms
-first primitive sea creatures are formed.
-eventually larger and larger organisms are mutating out of the others as there are more efficient ways to process the nutrients in the water, son more energy available for growth
-by now, some of the 'algae' have moved onto damp land around the seas and early plants and trees start to form.
-organisms that fed on algae have to adapt to gain algae from other places than the sea. At first, they start to jump quickly out of water and grab what they can, of course not every attempt successful.
-eventually primitive legs on fish start to form limbs (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik )
-organisms spending more and more time above sea level due to 'legs'
-primitive lungs formed
-some species move onto land
-scales adapt to become skin like on reptiles, some become wing-like structures, (which go on to form feather like structures and eventually birds
-some move further inland, where they either start to eat other vegetation or become carnivores
-some move into jungle areas, start swinging from trees and climbing up then to get food (early primates)
-similar ancestors to the primates move to less jungle areas and begin to stand on hind two legs in order to run faster and catch prey better
-these begin evolving into modern day homosapien sapiens, who have larger brains and are capable of self recognition and intelligent thought

i have not gone through all the posts, and maybe this was addressed previously
this summary describes the unfolding of creation beautifully imho

i recognize that there are ppl who just see natural selection (which is an assumption that has become a belief system)
but i see the hand of God, clearly

throw in "days" and "saw it was good" and you have an elaboration, the details of Genesis
how each layer was rested on the one before
how man was formed from the "dust" to the point where two people, from whom all humanity sprang forth, had sufficient brain capacity to be given the graces of will and reason

i don't know if the Garden was here or elsewhere
or how the human body was consituted before the fall
i don't think science, at this time anyway can offer any insights into this matter
it is really a side issue, the central point being carrying out God's will

the summary demonstrates how the ideas within the fields of science and religion can be complementary

 

[felix]

I believe the story of the water into wine was a hint to us that Jesus was clouding men's minds with the power of mesmerizing people en masse.

I do not think magic was occurring, nor that God works wonders outside the realm of His own Natural Laws.

I also believe that the Bible is telling us of things that are actually rationally possible occurrence or else to somewhat exaggerated report from observes amazed at the particular phenomenon they saw, and reporting it with all the wonder we would also if to us, it was an impossible feat.
This wine to water thing is what supports the hypothesis that Jesus had discover Hypnosis, even before John had baptized him, perhaps.

It is a shame to call yourself a Christian by indirectly calling Jesus [illegitimate], since God does not works wonders outside the realm of His own Natural Laws because a virgin gave birth to a child.

 

[felix]

when we are linking all the evidence to see how God did it, whywould a personal relationship with god force us to reject evolution's story andchose the bible's story?

By the way, for not knowing what the heck was going onaround them, the early Jews did anamazing job using what they knew about the world to come up with theircreation story. I don't think the creationstory would be the same if it was written today by them.

Because, when you know someone did really created everything to be 100% true, there is nothing that can stop you from believing any other. It is the truth that sets you free, not theories.

 

[felix]

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (of mind).

46 Howbeit that, (the Homoousian mind) was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, (or more elementary in contrast with ancient humanoids, like Neanderthals); and afterward that which is spiritual (or improved in regard to the mind)?

47 The first man, (an eponym for a whole species concurrent with Ramaphitecus Man and Sahelanthropus tchadensis), is of the earth, earthy: the second man, (Homoousian sapiens), is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, (mostly physically inclined), such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly (mentally inclined, in the spirit of thinking), such are they also that are heavenly, (and it is they who are evolving beyond the earthy men of the past).

49 And as we have, (one species after the next), borne (from the first man, an eponym for a whole species concurrent with Ramaphitecus Man and Sahelanthropus tchadensis, in our ascent), the image (of Reality that was then possible) of the earthy, we, (Homoiousian sapiens), shall also bear the image of the heavenly (mental things that are true).

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, (the new heaven and earth of the future); neither doth corruption (or bad characteristics) inherit incorruption, (i.e.; good characteristics).

51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (we shall eveolve as a species),

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, (advanced and improved beings), and we, (as a species), shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible (present form of even ourselves) must put on incorruption, (a new creature to appear in this reality of God), and this mortal (mind) must put on immortality (in an awaken mind that will be thereafter genetically reborn in mankind).

Why do you twist Scripture and deceitfully introduce a New Age doctrine?

2Pet 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
2Pet 3:15 and consider [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pet 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable [people] twist to their own destruction, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[felix]

I appreciate the conviction demonstrated in your post, but it has little to do with the OP. Again, scientists like Kenneth Miller and Francis Collins believe in God and are evolutionary scientists. Doctrinally, the Catholic and Anglican Churches appear to accept evolutionary theory and the fact of evolution. So your claims as to what 'most' Christians think about evolution don't seem to be deeply grounded, nor does your idea that acceptance of God leads inevitably to a rejection of evolution.

Well, the so called "Christians" I am talking about are the "Bible believing" true Christians, not who call themselves as Christians and yet reject Christ as their Creator.

 

[felix]

So no problem with evolution. Our bodies were brought forth by nature. Our souls were directly given by God.



That's not what scripture says. If you have to add to God's word to make it acceptable to you, isn't that an important clue?

You are not God. Nor is your revision, God's word.

You're still unwilling to accept His word as it is.

So let me know what the Scripture says:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (KJV)
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life (KJV).

So, God waited for millions of years for man to be evolved into a dead body and then God through His breath gave life?

As I said, you have to either reject Evolution to believe God as your Creator or reject the Bible truth to accept Evolution. You cannot have two masters you can serve. The further you try to fit evolution into Bible will actually make you further from the truth.

 

[Barbarian]

Well, the so called "Christians" I am talking about are the "Bible believing" true Christians, not who call themselves as Christians and yet reject Christ as their Creator.

Kenneth Miller is a Roman Catholic. Francis Collins is an Evangelical Christian. Which covers the majority of Bible believing Christians in America. As you might know, YE creationists do not believe everything in the Bible, because their "life ex nihilo" doctrine is contradicted by Genesis.

 

[wonby1]

[first post go easy on me please ]My name is Ossie, I'm from London and I'm 16. I consider myself a believer in evolution and an Atheist. Please don't be put off by this, I do not think any less of those who don't believe in this, as even if there is a God or not, humans are intelligent beings that are able to make their own independent decisions.

Let me start by saying that I do not wish to 'convert' you to Athiesm or disprove your faith, to do so would be wrong of me. I would simply like a viewpoint from the other side. I will do my best to not turn this into a 'my view is better than yours just because I say so' thing, and hope that you do the same. Mature discussion only please.

So my question is: Why should people not believe in Darwinian Evolution?

I have deliberately left this a broad question so you may interpret this how you wish. Please back up your responses with detailed evidence.

I look forward to your responses.

Regards,

Ossie

You may enjoy a book called, "Genesis and the Big Bang" by Dr. Gerald Schroeder. He is part theologian and scientist and comes to some pretty interesting conclusions from his studies. I think that the only way to approach both is to actually have an expertise in both and actually have a healthy respect for both. Otherwise, you are faced with a novice attacking the other field like Dawkins writing the God Delusion or the Creation Museaum being built in Kentucky etc.

If you are interested I could go into more detail in what Schoeder says in his book.

 

[felix]

Kenneth Miller is a Roman Catholic. Francis Collins is an Evangelical Christian. Which covers the majority of Bible believing Christians in America. As you might know, YE creationists do not believe everything in the Bible, because their "life ex nihilo" doctrine is contradicted by Genesis.

As I mentioned, Bible believing means, not someone who says so, but actually believes.

"life ex nihilo" gives me a meaning "life out of nothing". I can't find any reference of YE creationism saying that. If it is a YE creationist's view, then it is his "personal" view not YE creationism itself. There are a few references for articles on creation ex nihilo (which is true because He spoke and it happened), but not life ex nihilo.

Life is from God. Actually He is life. Only He can create life. If I give you a just dead organism with no apparent organ failures or injuries, can you make it live again? That's the difference between life and death. Even with a body which is perfect to have life, you cannot create a spirit to make it live.

 

[Barbarian]

As I mentioned, Bible believing means, not someone who says so, but actually believes.

Both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals believe the Bible is God's word. As you saw, YE creationists do not accept all of it.

"life ex nihilo" gives me a meaning "life out of nothing". I can't find any reference of YE creationism saying that.

The God of the Bible created all life ex nihilo (out of nothing) during six, 24 hour days of abrupt Creation.
http://www.2cor13verse5.com/?tag=ex-nihilo

In closing, we are told that the God of the Bible created all life ex-nihilo, from nothing.
http://lamarzulli.wordpress.com/tag/ex-nihilo/

Science has never produced the human cell and just to think that God created life "ex nihilo" out of nothing!
http://www.zimbio.com/CERN+Hadron+C.../Higgs+Boson+Dummies+There+Better+Explanation

http://books.google.com/books?id=_y...6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q="life ex nihilo"&f=false

If it is a YE creationist's view, then it is his "personal" view not YE creationism itself.

"No true Scotsman", um? If you don't buy that particular part of YE creationism, good for you.

Keep in mind that Christians believe the Bible is true. Most of them don't think your particular interpretation of it is true.

 

[cupid dave]

Whilst it is true that perhaps, Darwin did not explain the origin of life, it has since been able to be worked out. I'm not claiming absolute knowledge on this matter, but this is what I believe:

-newly formed earth GEN3SIS 1:2

(a few hundred million years old) is abundant with water and nutrients from asteroid impacts (although some nutrients are toxic)

-CO2 layer and other gases in atmosphere... GEN3SIS 1:6

.... start to warm planet
-first protein is formed (it is important to realise that this is NOT life yet, only a very complex molecule)
-more proteins are formed, as well as more complex molecules such as glucose.


-cell-like structures which can convert CO2 to O2 whilst creating glucose slowly form from the mixture of molecules.
(scientists believe that these were very primitive algae)... GEN3SIS 1:11

-sufficient O2 in atmosphere after a few million years of photosynthesising,...

... bacteria start to form in nutrient rich seas... GEN3SIS 1:10

-some bacteria photosynthesise like the algae, some start to use the O2 to create glucose and release CO2, start of the carbon cycle.

-eventually unicellular organisms move closer to shore (due to overcrowding near the middle of oceans) where they are exposed to greater levels of O2.
-more O2 is more beneficial, so primitive gills start to form
-organisms now able to produce more glucose as gills are more efficient, excess energy, first multicellular organisms

-first primitive sea creatures are formed... GEN3SIS 1:20

-eventually larger and larger organisms are mutating out of the others as there are more efficient ways to process the nutrients in the water, son more energy available for growth
-by now, some of the 'algae' have moved onto damp land around the seas and early plants and trees start to form.
-organisms that fed on algae have to adapt to gain algae from other places than the sea. At first, they start to jump quickly out of water and grab what they can, of course not every attempt successful.
-eventually primitive legs on fish start to form limbs (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik )
-organisms spending more and more time above sea level due to 'legs'
-primitive lungs formed... GEN3SIS 1:20
-some species move onto land
-scales adapt to become skin like on reptiles, some become wing-like structures, (which go on to form feather like structures and eventually birds... GEN3SIS 1:21

-some move further inland, where they either start to eat other vegetation or become carnivores

-some move into jungle areas, start swinging from trees and climbing up then to get food (early primates)... GEN3SIS 1:24
-similar ancestors to the primates move to less jungle areas and begin to stand on hind two legs in order to run faster and catch prey better

-these begin evolving into modern day homosapien sapiens, who have larger brains and are capable of self recognition and intelligent thought...GEN3SIS 1:26




Ossie

So how is the story in Genesis any different, generally speaking????

 

[felix]

Both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals believe the Bible is God's word. As you saw, YE creationists do not accept all of it.

I am not too sure what your message is. I am not a YE creationist. The first 7 days of creation are literal expect the fact that 1st 4 days are not 24 hrs (as there was no sun). It is only for the next 3 days, the sun began to rule so, each rotation is a day (i.e, ~24 hrs).
The right term to describe my view is "Young Life Creationists".

The God of the Bible created all life ex nihilo (out of nothing) during six, 24 hour days of abrupt Creation.
http://www.2cor13verse5.com/?tag=ex-nihilo

In closing, we are told that the God of the Bible created all life ex-nihilo, from nothing.
http://lamarzulli.wordpress.com/tag/ex-nihilo/

Science has never produced the human cell and just to think that God created life "ex nihilo" out of nothing!
http://www.zimbio.com/CERN+Hadron+C.../Higgs+Boson+Dummies+There+Better+Explanation

http://books.google.com/books?id=_y...6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q="life ex nihilo"&f=false

I think there is a misunderstanding here. For creation itself (including life), God did not require anything apart from His Word for the "act" of creation. He spoke His Word and it happened. Out of nothing simply means, no other agent is involved in Creation. This does not negate nor contradict the fact that man was formed from ground.

 

[cupid dave]

i have not gone through all the posts, and maybe this was addressed previously

1) this summary describes the unfolding of creation beautifully imho

i recognize that there are ppl who just see natural selection (which is an assumption that has become a belief system)
but i see the hand of God, clearly

throw in "days" and "saw it was good" and you have an elaboration, the details of Genesis
how each layer was rested on the one before
how man was formed from the "dust" to the point where two people, from whom all humanity sprang forth, had sufficient brain capacity to be given the graces of will and reason

2) i don't know if the Garden was here or elsewhere
or how the human body was consituted before the fall
i don't think science, at this time anyway can offer any insights into this matter
it is really a side issue, the central point being carrying out God's will

the summary demonstrates how the ideas within the fields of science and religion can be complementary

1) Finally, a sensible person with reasonable reading comprehension skills...
1) Great.
Its wonderful to read what you say here.

Genesis ABOUT the cosmic unfolding, and written so all generations including our own could relate the evolving reality that those people and we, ourselves, find to exist during our own short stay on earth.

The medieval book reports on Genesis could not have imagined that the seven "days" were eon long durations, seven different geological states on the Earth and universe as it expanded.
But the whole story parallels and corresponds with what we now know is true.

Even "all the waters were collected into place" (gen1:9-10) has an errie surreal and/or divine sense of factual connection with the Pangea-like geology to make one wonder who but God could have known.

2) A close reading of Genesis 2 suggests that man made with the capability to image God, mentally, is followed in Gen 2 and 3, describing the mind of man as Eden where man is fenced-off from the external world and able to think, freely, for himself.
Those chapters makes sense when read that to Adam, he was made before the animals that God brings to his attention.
And the ribs are the seven Freudian y-thinking apparati man uses to make his decisions.
Eve is man's Intution, i.e.; a rib that does seem different and separate from the rest of the rib cage, in that Intuition is the feminine side of man.

Genesis when read with the sophistication of the 21st century reader corresponds amazingly well with the fact of our academic and sciences.

imho

 

[cupid dave]

It is a shame to call yourself a Christian by indirectly calling Jesus [illegitimate], since God does not works wonders outside the realm of His own Natural Laws because a virgin gave birth to a child.

Jesus, technically, was [illegitimate] as that word was meant to be understood before Christianity, when Christian prudence made such an event shameful.
Today, we abort, and this matter of Mary's pregnancy in 4BC is good reason for Christians today to oppose abortion.

Had Mary done what women do so easily today, she would have save the Jews from Crucifying our Lord.

Nevertheless, I see the Christ child as that Act-of-God, taking place early on in the womb, when some genetic mutation change Jesus to a higher level of humanity, creating the first Modern Homoiousian sapiens to have evolved.

Like the same Act-of-God which occurred in the womb of the surrogate Ape-mother that bore Adam, a mutation occurred that transformed what was into what would forever be new on earth for the first time, the first born son of God as this new creature in God.

 

[Sparkey]

Posts seen as attempts to provoke moderation will not be ignored. I am reluctant to close this thread.
-Moderator

 

[felix]

Jesus, technically, was [illegitimate] as that word was meant to be understood before Christianity, when Christian prudence made such an event shameful.
Today, we abort, and this matter of Mary's pregnancy in 4BC is good reason for Christians today to oppose abortion.

Had Mary done what women do so easily today, she would have save the Jews from Crucifying our Lord.

Nevertheless, I see the Christ child as that Act-of-God, taking place early on in the womb, when some genetic mutation change Jesus to a higher level of humanity, creating the first Modern Homoiousian sapiens to have evolved.

Like the same Act-of-God which occurred in the womb of the surrogate Ape-mother that bore Adam, a mutation occurred that transformed what was into what would forever be new on earth for the first time, the first born son of God as this new creature in God.

If you do not know much about Christianity, please do not pour out your half baked information to degrade Christianity.

If Jesus was a "genetic mutation" from chromosomes of earthly parents, then He is neither God nor Son of God, nor His crucifixion have any reason. I have heard of "secret believers" in the middle of a persecuted country but you are a "secret unbeliever".

Do you believe in Holy Spirit? Do you even believe that Christ was born of the Holy Spirit? Do you believe that the Word "became" flesh as a normal human (not anything mutated). As I asked earlier, why do you even claim yourself to be a Christian, when you deny the divinity of Christ and yet have a form of godliness.

I can only think of telling you that Bible had already warned:

2Tim 3:2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Tim 3:3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
2Tim 3:4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Tim 3:5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!