explaining Christian morality to others

[jasonc]

I pray you consider the health of the person before following your own layman's opinion about how to 'help' them. Please don't tell a mentally ill person anything about religion unless they ask. Even then don't over-state what is belief and what is fact. They are likely to be confused and stressed enough already and you may do more harm that you can possibly imagine. I really do suggest you study the religious conversions done by Derren Brown so that you can see just how easy it is to manipulate someone. It is frighteningly easy.

By all means listen, empathise and comfort but don't lead. Leave that to the professionals - please. Even they will be very hesitant to tell someone what to do.

On your second point, I would be very interested to know where I can find the, 'many, many documented incidences of mentally ill people who were "cured" through discovering a faith in God'?Or did you actually mean that you have heard a couple of anecdotes? That is hardly the same thing as a 'documented instance'. We also need to be very wary about accepting the veracity of unsubstantiated Blogs. They are often full of complete rubbish.

so when and if im suicidal again, and I have been a time or two while posting here. but I can usually remind myself of the gospel and that it doesn't solve anything. I shall keep that in mind not to go the word to find the answers. I have found my answer in the word and the root causes of my issues..

s
I
n
yup im egotistical, codependent, lustful, prideful. my lord im a SINNER. SIR I have had ptsd and also rejection issues, marriage issues where by im a part of the problem.so if I should go to a shrink that doesn't believe and I have been to one who basically told me to smoke mj or so she came across to me. verses my elders advise would be go into the word repent here or there and treat her better and them better?im in general familiar with psychology as my brother and sister did time in instutions for depression and paranoid schizophrenia. my brother was misdiagnosed or healed and has no symptoms since 93. my sister was realeased and never treated for it again to my knowledge, I have asked her about that.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm sure you meant this as to manipulate in a bad way. But lets not forget "...ye should earnestly contend for the faith" (Jude 1:3b). To "contend" is to assert, maintain, hold, claim, argue, insist, state, declare, profess, affirm, and allege. all of which are elements of persuading and manipulating. So I think if you are persuading or manipulating for the glory of God, you shouldn't feel guilty or defensive about it. Even with someone who is vulnerable due to mental illness, why should we feel we shouldn't persuade them that God can help and heal them if they put their lives and their faith in Him? There have been many, many documented incidences of mentally ill people who were "cured" through discovering a faith in God through scripture because someone took the time and had the love to "contend" with them for the things of God. It's true that some (but not all) mental illness is much like physical illness in that it needs medical and/or psychological treatment in addition to faith in God, but faith in God is always a good thing to have and many times God has chosen to heal mental illness all on His own!

All I meant here was that I would not shove scripture down anyone's throat and force my beliefs on them, but sit and share that which they need to hear. Jesus never took anyone by force when he spoke as people followed him wherever he went as what he spoke they became interested in hearing.

 

[jasonc]

I wouldn't force that belief on anyone but I can post what the army has said about what to do with that problem. I understand the reasoning why but as I told my chaplain. funny we must tell them that utilimately if they don't believe in jesus. find a lie and believe it.

 

[Obadiah]

All I meant here was that I would not shove scripture down anyone's throat and force my beliefs on them, but sit and share that which they need to hear. Jesus never took anyone by force when he spoke as people followed him wherever he went as what he spoke they became interested in hearing.

Exactly right. I never said anything about forcing my beliefs down anyone's throat either. Like you said, if someone is interested in my help, that help is going to include scriptural principles because I'm a Christian. That's just who I am. If they don't want to hear about that, much like the way you pointed out that Jesus did things, they are free to go on with their own beliefs. Of course, I'm not a psychologist so I'm not in the position of dealing with people that have mental problems on a daily basis. I understand as a secular professional man's rules wouldn't allow me to "push" Christianity on everyone. But even if I were a professional, if a person was open to the gospel or to other scriptural principles, I'm going to share them. Seems like I remember Jesus saying something about bad things that will happen to those of us who deny Him while here on earth...

 

[Obadiah]

I pray you consider the health of the person before following your own layman's opinion about how to 'help' them. Please don't tell a mentally ill person anything about religion unless they ask. Even then don't over-state what is belief and what is fact. They are likely to be confused and stressed enough already and you may do more harm that you can possibly imagine. I really do suggest you study the religious conversions done by Derren Brown so that you can see just how easy it is to manipulate someone. It is frighteningly easy.

By all means listen, empathise and comfort but don't lead. Leave that to the professionals - please. Even they will be very hesitant to tell someone what to do.

On your second point, I would be very interested to know where I can find the, 'many, many documented incidences of mentally ill people who were "cured" through discovering a faith in God'?Or did you actually mean that you have heard a couple of anecdotes? That is hardly the same thing as a 'documented instance'. We also need to be very wary about accepting the veracity of unsubstantiated Blogs. They are often full of complete rubbish.

Please don't tell a mentally ill person anything about religion unless they ask.

I'm not a psychologist. If they come to me or are willing to listen to me, it's because of my reputation as a Christian. I know some Christians don't take this warning from Jesus seriously, but I do: "but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:33) I understand not all Christians see it the same way I do, but to me these instructions from Jesus are more important than man's secular ideas and rules.

I really do suggest you study the religious conversions done by Derren Brown so that you can see just how easy it is to manipulate someone. It is frighteningly easy.

I don't know or really even care who Derren Brown is. I'm guessing he is some evangelist that used manipulation to gain converts so he could brag about it? I would rather look at the example of Jesus. Jesus never hid or denied who he was, even when it meant his death on the cross. Most people have enough common sense to know the difference between persuading (contending) for the gospel to the glory of God as opposed to just using "religion" to manipulate people for their own bragging rights. They just need to be honest with themselves as to what their real motives are. On that note, Christians who are denying Christ need to be honest with themselves as to why they are doing that as well. Are they truly doing it because it is best? (Then why didn't Jesus ever do that?) Or are they doing it to save their own careers because man's secular rules say they can't talk about God? Who is truly their master?

Even then don't over-state what is belief and what is fact.

The word of God is fact. I will continue to state it as such. (Notice I said "The word of God", not "my opinion of what unclear sections of the word of God mean".) I can not honor your request of me not to tell a mentally ill person anything about religion unless they ask. (Once again, see Matthew 10:33) A person doesn't need a degree in secular psychology to have enough common sense to know the difference between persuading "contending" for the gospel for the glory of God and manipulating a person for his own glory so he can brag about how many converts he has under his belt, even when the person listening has some sort of mental illness or psychological problem. Common sense and guidance of the Holy Spirit prevails.

On your second point, I would be very interested to know where I can find the, 'many, many documented incidences of mentally ill people who were "cured" through discovering a faith in God'?Or did you actually mean that you have heard a couple of anecdotes? That is hardly the same thing as a 'documented instance'. We also need to be very wary about accepting the veracity of unsubstantiated Blogs. They are often full of complete rubbish.

It's easy to slander something as complete rubbish when it's something you don't agree with, isn't it? I would give you links to what I've read, but not all my information comes from the internet. I guess I'm old fashioned that way. I also don't keep notes of the URLs of everything I read in case someone asks me to prove it later, so I don't have that information handy. I suppose if I were on trial in a court of law here I would research it again and try to find it, but that's not the case. Perhaps the firsthand account from Jason as to how God's word has helped to heal him when secular psychology failed holds more weight for you? (It certainly does for me.) Or is his account "rubbish" too?:

so when and if im suicidal again, and I have been a time or two while posting here. but I can usually remind myself of the gospel and that it doesn't solve anything. I shall keep that in mind not to go the word to find the answers. I have found my answer in the word and the root causes of my issues..

s
I
n
yup im egotistical, codependent, lustful, prideful. my lord im a SINNER. SIR I have had ptsd and also rejection issues, marriage issues where by im a part of the problem.so if I should go to a shrink that doesn't believe and I have been to one who basically told me to smoke mj or so she came across to me. verses my elders advise would be go into the word repent here or there and treat her better and them better?im in general familiar with psychology as my brother and sister did time in instutions for depression and paranoid schizophrenia. my brother was misdiagnosed or healed and has no symptoms since 93. my sister was realeased and never treated for it again to my knowledge, I have asked her about that.

Once again, I do not apologize for nor do I hide my Christianity.

 

[NeedTheLord]

It is just hard explaining to someone that hasn't experienced The Power of God and Being Changed by Love just how it all happens. For me the best thing is to wait for the exact opportune time to bring Jesus into the conversation. He will Make a Way. Much love In Him, N.

 

[Vaccine]

The exchange was a lot friendlier and civil than I'm making it sound.

I'm sure most of the time the psychiatrists personal beliefs don't even enter into it. It seems they were uncomfortable discussing it with you. I think Reba had some good advice, finding a Christian psychiatrist. It doesn't have anything to do with ability or qualification, a patient may prefer a male or female psychiatrist. If their goal is to help you, they should accommodate your preference if possible.

Still, it raises an interesting question: how do you explain your lifestyle to people--especially people in authority--who question you?

I think Claudya had some good advice, there are "worldly" arguments for Christian values. What I've found sometimes when people ask questions, they're really just curious, not looking for an argument. Maybe they form different opinions of me after I reveal my position but I can't help that. Explaining acceptance and approval have different meanings may help.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not a psychologist. If they come to me or are willing to listen to me, it's because of my reputation as a Christian. I know some Christians don't take this warning from Jesus seriously, but I do: "but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:33) I understand not all Christians see it the same way I do, but to me these instructions from Jesus are more important than man's secular ideas and rules.



I don't know or really even care who Derren Brown is. I'm guessing he is some evangelist that used manipulation to gain converts so he could brag about it? I would rather look at the example of Jesus. Jesus never hid or denied who he was, even when it meant his death on the cross. Most people have enough common sense to know the difference between persuading (contending) for the gospel to the glory of God as opposed to just using "religion" to manipulate people for their own bragging rights. They just need to be honest with themselves as to what their real motives are. On that note, Christians who are denying Christ need to be honest with themselves as to why they are doing that as well. Are they truly doing it because it is best? (Then why didn't Jesus ever do that?) Or are they doing it to save their own careers because man's secular rules say they can't talk about God? Who is truly their master?



The word of God is fact. I will continue to state it as such. (Notice I said "The word of God", not "my opinion of what unclear sections of the word of God mean".) I can not honor your request of me not to tell a mentally ill person anything about religion unless they ask. (Once again, see Matthew 10:33) A person doesn't need a degree in secular psychology to have enough common sense to know the difference between persuading "contending" for the gospel for the glory of God and manipulating a person for his own glory so he can brag about how many converts he has under his belt, even when the person listening has some sort of mental illness or psychological problem. Common sense and guidance of the Holy Spirit prevails.



It's easy to slander something as complete rubbish when it's something you don't agree with, isn't it? I would give you links to what I've read, but not all my information comes from the internet. I guess I'm old fashioned that way. I also don't keep notes of the URLs of everything I read in case someone asks me to prove it later, so I don't have that information handy. I suppose if I were on trial in a court of law here I would research it again and try to find it, but that's not the case. Perhaps the firsthand account from Jason as to how God's word has helped to heal him when secular psychology failed holds more weight for you? (It certainly does for me.) Or is his account "rubbish" too?:



Once again, I do not apologize for nor do I hide my Christianity.

that wasn't directed at you Obadiah, but the other who said we shouldn't tell or mention Christ. when im in that situation I will pray for wisdom. if don't know what to say then I just pray and be quiet.

 

[Isambard]

I'm not a psychologist. If they come to me or are willing to listen to me, it's because of my reputation as a Christian. I know some Christians don't take this warning from Jesus seriously, but I do: "but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:33) I understand not all Christians see it the same way I do, but to me these instructions from Jesus are more important than man's secular ideas and rules.



I don't know or really even care who Derren Brown is. I'm guessing he is some evangelist that used manipulation to gain converts so he could brag about it? I would rather look at the example of Jesus. Jesus never hid or denied who he was, even when it meant his death on the cross. Most people have enough common sense to know the difference between persuading (contending) for the gospel to the glory of God as opposed to just using "religion" to manipulate people for their own bragging rights. They just need to be honest with themselves as to what their real motives are. On that note, Christians who are denying Christ need to be honest with themselves as to why they are doing that as well. Are they truly doing it because it is best? (Then why didn't Jesus ever do that?) Or are they doing it to save their own careers because man's secular rules say they can't talk about God? Who is truly their master?



The word of God is fact. I will continue to state it as such. (Notice I said "The word of God", not "my opinion of what unclear sections of the word of God mean".) I can not honor your request of me not to tell a mentally ill person anything about religion unless they ask. (Once again, see Matthew 10:33) A person doesn't need a degree in secular psychology to have enough common sense to know the difference between persuading "contending" for the gospel for the glory of God and manipulating a person for his own glory so he can brag about how many converts he has under his belt, even when the person listening has some sort of mental illness or psychological problem. Common sense and guidance of the Holy Spirit prevails.



It's easy to slander something as complete rubbish when it's something you don't agree with, isn't it? I would give you links to what I've read, but not all my information comes from the internet. I guess I'm old fashioned that way. I also don't keep notes of the URLs of everything I read in case someone asks me to prove it later, so I don't have that information handy. I suppose if I were on trial in a court of law here I would research it again and try to find it, but that's not the case. Perhaps the firsthand account from Jason as to how God's word has helped to heal him when secular psychology failed holds more weight for you? (It certainly does for me.) Or is his account "rubbish" too?:



Once again, I do not apologize for nor do I hide my Christianity.

No one has asked or suggested that you hide your Christianity, simply that you don't lead a mentally ill person into scripture. I'm sure that is not difficult to understand.

I find your total rejection of that advice and request incredibly self centred, ignorant and completely the opposite of 'caring' for that person. I carefully asked that you consider the patient and instead of that you consider your own egotism.

Derren Brown is not an evangelist, he is an atheist who has repeatedly demonstrated just how easy it is to convert people to Christianity by NLP etc. If you are not willing even to try to understand the basics then for goodness sake leave people with mental problems alone. They have enough to cope with. It is incredibly easy to influence people when the balance of their mind is disturbed.

When Jason, with his own problems, turns to The Bible or whatever he does for guidance and comfort, he is doing that himself - and good for him. He clearly has a long and complicated history of involvement in religion and has the intelligence to cope with the inherent confusion. Not everybody has!

Lastly, we all think that many parts of The Bible are fact, some people still think that it is all fact! But the fact is that we really don't know. If it were all substantiated fact, it wouldn't be a religion, it would be history. Faith is based on beliefs, not on facts.

 

[agua.]

Lastly, we all think that many parts of The Bible are fact, some people still think that it is all fact! But the fact is that we really don't know. If it were all substantiated fact, it wouldn't be a religion, it would be history. Faith is based on beliefs, not on facts.

Gday Isambard the Bible is all fact and historically accurate. If you don't believe so perhaps it will be better if you don't promote this idea on a Christian site. Maybe you're referring to the allegorical side ?

God bless.

 

[Rick W]

Thank you agua

Faith is based on beliefs, not on facts.

Jesus performed many miracles telling the people that if they don't believe what He says then believe what He had done. Those were facts presented to those who witnessed and heard of those miracles. Yet, even with those facts clearly presented people chose not to believe.


John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


Even with the evidence of facts people will still find ways to reject those facts. Jesus is saying here are the facts if you don't wish to believe my words.

 

[Rick W]

I find your total rejection of that advice and request incredibly self centred, ignorant and completely the opposite of 'caring' for that person. I carefully asked that you consider the patient and instead of that you consider your own egotism.

Reminder.

Please be careful posting opinions about other members. The fact is it's something this site will not support.


TERMS OF SERVICE

1) Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself. (ToS 2.4)
Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence.

 

[Isambard]

Gday Isambard the Bible is all fact and historically accurate. If you don't believe so perhaps it will be better if you don't promote this idea on a Christian site. Maybe you're referring to the allegorical side ?

God bless.

G'day agua. I note your personal belief. The problem is knowing which parts are allegorical, which Midrash, which fable and which are absolutely true. How do you tell? Evidence or guess-work?

A 4,400 year old earth (meaning that geology is rubbish)? Creation in a week (meaning evolution is rubbish)? 30,000ft deep flood (meaning that physics and geology are rubbish)? Collection of animals from Australia and New Zealand, to name but two islands, to put in an ark? 2,000 year life-spans? etc?

Many of us are not fundamentalists. Many do not believe that The Bible is all fact nor even that it was divinely inspired. Many believe it to be a collection of scrolls put together for political purposes. Many are happy to have a vague belief that Jesus was a wonderful example to us all - without necessarily accepting everything that appears in The Bible - whichever version you happen to choose. As I said earlier, I doubt there are any two Christians that believe exactly the same things.

IF this is a fundamentalist Christian web-site, and I don't think it is, perhaps you are right and I shouldn't be here. I came here to hear ideas. That doesn't mean that I have to accept every idea that people post nor that I shouldn't question those ideas. Some things I have read here have been absolutely outrageous! I have remained quiet for a few months, I think it is about time to express my views.

 

[Isambard]

Reminder.

Please be careful posting opinions about other members. The fact is it's something this site will not support.


TERMS OF SERVICE

1) Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself. (ToS 2.4)
Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence.

Yes Rick, I stand appropriately admonished. 2 I accept that my words were typed in anger. I will try to be more careful.

I'm sorry Obadiah, I was out or order. I should have recognised and explained that.....
1. I was angered by your insistence that preaching to an mentally ill person was a good thing to do.
2. Having provided evidence of manipulation, in the form of Derren Brown, I was angered by your assumption that you knew what he was and didn't even bother to look at the evidence presented before repeating your lay medical opinion.
3. I was angered by your presentation of 'evidence' in the form of 'many documented cases' only to find that you actually meant that you had read something somewhere but you couldn't remember where.

PLEASE seek the advice of mental health professionals and PLEASE don't try to 'help' mentally ill people. ?

 

[agua.]

G'day agua. I note your personal belief. The problem is knowing which parts are allegorical, which Midrash, which fable and which are absolutely true. How do you tell? Evidence or guess-work?

A 4,400 year old earth (meaning that geology is rubbish)? Creation in a week (meaning evolution is rubbish)? 30,000ft deep flood (meaning that physics and geology are rubbish)? Collection of animals from Australia and New Zealand, to name but two islands, to put in an ark? 2,000 year life-spans? etc?

Many of us are not fundamentalists. Many do not believe that The Bible is all fact nor even that it was divinely inspired. Many believe it to be a collection of scrolls put together for political purposes. Many are happy to have a vague belief that Jesus was a wonderful example to us all - without necessarily accepting everything that appears in The Bible - whichever version you happen to choose. As I said earlier, I doubt there are any two Christians that believe exactly the same things.

IF this is a fundamentalist Christian web-site, and I don't think it is, perhaps you are right and I shouldn't be here. I came here to hear ideas. That doesn't mean that I have to accept every idea that people post nor that I shouldn't question those ideas. Some things I have read here have been absolutely outrageous! I have remained quiet for a few months, I think it is about time to express my views.

I'm sure you can participate here so long as you don't break the TOS Isambard. The moderators will be the judge if you offend.

God bless.

6) Anti-Christian content will be considered a hostile act. (ToS 2.1)
This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare it false) and the basic tenets of our Faith is against the purpose of this site. Links to anti-Christian websites will be removed.

Please read: Statement of Faith
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?pages/statement-of-faith/

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

 

[Rick W]

:nod

Was about to hit submit essentially stating the same thing.

There are proper forums for debate. The Lounge isn't one of them.

Please use the Discussion and Debate section.

 

[jasonc]

ok, moving on, its the policy of the army that a chaplain can if the member that is suicidal present the gospel since he wasn't forced to see him. he went there on his own volition. in the army's how to help policy, its this acronym act, care , escort. ( A.C.E) the last part is where I would say whom do you want to seek help from. the chaplain? the va? the armys' one source who would set you up with an psychologist/physciatrist? the army briefs all soldiers in what they all do these days and especially since the 90's on what chaplains do. a chaplain is trained on this and will know what to ask and at times will know that the soldier may just want to find out where he can go and isn't comfortable with the chaplain any "faith". in this case unless I personally know the soldier on a level I would do one of the above. if its someone I know really well they would be told of the cross and asked if they want to see the chaplain . they are still free to decide whom they want help from.

 

[Isambard]

I'm sure you can participate here so long as you don't break the TOS Isambard. The moderators will be the judge if you offend.

God bless.

6) Anti-Christian content will be considered a hostile act. (ToS 2.1)
This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare it false) and the basic tenets of our Faith is against the purpose of this site. Links to anti-Christian websites will be removed.

Please read: Statement of Faith
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?pages/statement-of-faith/

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

Aha! So it is a fundamentalist web-site. Debate on interpretation and origin of The Bible is not allowed! Wow! How sad! That is the most important issue facing Christianity and precisely why Christian numbers are tumbling. Fundamentalists are killing off Christianity same as the fundamentalist Muslims will eventually kill off Islam. I would be foolish to stay. I will bid you farewell and try to find a more open minded forum where some more constructive thoughts are being shared. Bye

 

[agua.]

Aha! So it is a fundamentalist web-site. Debate on interpretation and origin of The Bible is not allowed! Wow! How sad! That is the most important issue facing Christianity and precisely why Christian numbers are tumbling. Fundamentalists are killing off Christianity same as the fundamentalist Muslims will eventually kill off Islam. I would be foolish to stay. I will bid you farewell and try to find a more open minded forum where some more constructive thoughts are being shared. Bye

Sorry to hear you say this Isambard. Christian numbers are growing worldwide but they are shrinking in usual strongholds. The reasons for this are diverse but the Bible tells us that many choose not to believe and the prevalent reasons are satan's influence and cares of this world. Remember that a thought that isn't inline with Jesus' teachings and the Bible message isn't constructive to Christianity.

God bless.

 

[Obadiah]

that wasn't directed at you Obadiah, but the other who said we shouldn't tell or mention Christ. when im in that situation I will pray for wisdom. if don't know what to say then I just pray and be quiet.

Yeah, I understood that. I was pointing it out as what I thought was a really good testimony.