Facts, Truth.. Please read.

[Zero Link]

I was up all through the morning(in the ams) listening to him. He speaks the truth, revealing who the true anti-christ is.. and he has also convinced me that there is no pre-trib nor mid-trib tribulation. Please listen to the audio clips:

--[No Secret Rapture]--
http://resources.christianity.com/Detai ... 2710F0280C

Studying this is a good way to prove that there is no secret rapture.

--[ Anti-christ Revealed in history and Prophecy]--
http://resources.christianity.com/Detai ... 2AD90ADDDF

Anti-christ is not one man.. This means he isn't a one man dictator. Anti-Christ is a dynasty.. A group of noble people... Aka, the Popes.

--[ The true meaning of the Mesuring Rod and who the Two Witnessess really are]--
http://resources.christianity.com/Detai ... 4625C00949

Take your time, read it and study it. This is very important.


Hopefully those will open your eyes and see whats going on and whats been going on for years and years.. If not, then may God bless you, but if you are still a pre-trib believer, or believe that we will be raptured... Your gaurd is down.. Exactly what Satan wants, because when your gaurd is down, he attacks. Pre-Tribbers think they should sit back, enjoy, relax til Jesus secretly rapture them... Only to find out that there will be no rapture, and they will fall right into the pope's hands.. Ask yourself, why would Jesus keep something secret that would cause confusion all over the world? He clearly explained what was going to happen, if it was such an event, i doubt he would keep it a secret.

But anyway, listen to the audio clips.. Perhaps they might change your mind. He makes plenty of sense.

 

[Vic C.]

I'll give it a listen... this is from the first link. Is it me, or is the historical view gianing ground as it resurfaces?

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Anyway:

Message Details
The Secret Rapture - is it Scriptural?
Speaker: Pastor Alan Campbell
Date: 4/17/2000
References: II Peter:19-21

In this outstanding series, Pastor Alan expounds the Reformed and Protestant School of Interpretation of Bible Prophecy known as 'Historicism', contrasting it with 'Futurism', a School of Interpretation which has its roots in the Roman Catholic Jesuit Order's counter-attack to the Reformers' identification of the Papacy as 'antichrist' and the 'man of sin' of Scripture.

In this series you will discover the truth that 'Prophecy is but History foretold and History is Prophecy fulfilled' and learn why the Book which was to be a 'Revelation' has instead become a 'mystery' to so many of God's people today.

 

[Zero Link]

I'll give it a listen... this is from the first link. Is it me, or is the historical view gianing ground as it resurfaces?

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Hmm, im not getting what you're trying to say..

 

[Vic C.]

I'll try to rephrase it. I'm new at learning about historicism, so excuse me if I get you comfused.

This view was the view of the Reformers. As you know, other positions have surfaced since then. Now there seems to be a resurgance of the Historical beliefs. If we are nearing the end and as Daniel says, "... knowledge shall be increased.", this may explain why Historicism is becoming popular again. Knowledge of the writings of these Reformers is now widely available on the Net, thus increasing the knowledge of those who read them. For instance, I had no idea that Newton wrote so much about Prophecy and the Bible in general, until I started seeing it on the Web.

Hope this helps.

 

[Zero Link]

Is all of this a good thing or bad thing?

 

[preterist]

I don't think "book knowledge" is what Daniel had in mind, I believe it refers to the knowledge of salvation and the Gospel message and in Redemptive history.

Luk 1:76 Yea and thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Most High: For thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to make ready his ways;
Luk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people In the remission of their sins,


Rom 2:20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth;

Rom 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

1Co 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus;
1Co 1:5 that in everything ye were enriched in him, in all utterance and all knowledge;

Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him;
Eph 1:18 having the eyes of your heart enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray and make request for you, that ye may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,


Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel was told to seal his book till the time of the end, yet John is told not to seal his because the time is near:

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.

This is why Peter was able to say the end was near in his day:

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer:

 

[BenJasher]

Even if there were no Futuristic counterfeit interpretation of prophecy, we would still find something to disagree on. :smt014

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? :turn-l:

Does the communion wine actually become Jesus' blood when we partake; does the bread become His flesh? :crazyeyes:

 

[lecoop]

I was up all through the morning(in the ams) listening to him. He speaks the truth, revealing who the true anti-christ is.. and he has also convinced me that there is no pre-trib nor mid-trib tribulation. Please listen to the audio clips:
...
Studying this is a good way to prove that there is no secret rapture.

...
Anti-christ is not one man.. This means he isn't a one man dictator. Anti-Christ is a dynasty.. A group of noble people... Aka, the Popes.

...

Take your time, read it and study it. This is very important.


Hopefully those will open your eyes and see whats going on and whats been going on for years and years.. If not, then may God bless you, but if you are still a pre-trib believer, or believe that we will be raptured... Your gaurd is down.. Exactly what Satan wants, because when your gaurd is down, he attacks. Pre-Tribbers think they should sit back, enjoy, relax til Jesus secretly rapture them... Only to find out that there will be no rapture, and they will fall right into the pope's hands.. Ask yourself, why would Jesus keep something secret that would cause confusion all over the world? He clearly explained what was going to happen, if it was such an event, i doubt he would keep it a secret.
...

GROAN! How can anyone be so wrong, and think they are right? How in the world are protestant belivers going to "fall into the pope's hand?" Utterly preposterous! Especially when when John shows us the raptured church in heaven, before the 70th week even starts! So you see, Jesus did NOT keep it secret! It is there for all to read.

BTW, has ANY pope ever came from the Middle East, where the antichrist shall come from?

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Well, for one thing Coop, John doesn't show us a Raptured Church in Heaven.

That's preposterous! When are you going to grow up and put away childish ideas?

 

[lecoop]

Well, for one thing Coop, John doesn't show us a Raptured Church in Heaven.

That's preposterous! When are you going to grow up and put away childish ideas?

Hmm! When we are all there, as part of that huge group that no man could number, perhaps you will then say, "I guess Coop knew what he was saying after all!" :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

Coop

If you disagree, perhaps you could show us when we will meet the Lord in the air?

 

[Zero Link]

Hmm! When we are all there, as part of that huge group that no man could number, perhaps you will then say, "I guess Coop knew what he was saying after all!" :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

Coop

If you disagree, perhaps you could show us when we will meet the Lord in the air?

And this group is after the great tribulation. You see, after Jesus second coming we are going to be gathered(raptured)... Then John sees a great multitude in heaven.. It would make sense.

- We've just came out of the tribulation
- John sees a great multitude

 

[BenJasher]

Lyle E. Cooper:

Do you even understand what it means to "meet Him in the air?"

Obviously not if you think it refers to a Rapture.

1Thess 4:13-17 makes mention of the Paruosia, as well as the Harpazo (what you think is a Rapture). Several other verses and passages do this as well.

However, the Parousia is a word that can be difficult to discover the meaning to. When I went to see what was said about the Parousia on the internet, everything I found simply said it was the Second Coming. Not one place I went to offered to give a clear definition of what it was.

The Second Coming may very well be described in the New Testament as a Parousia, but the Parousia isn't entirely, on its own, The Second Coming. The one isn't necessarily the other. It was something else first and foremost. And the background meaning is what is lacking in the Futurist understanding.

That is a shame. I know what the word means. There is a simple detail that gives a whole new twist of meaning to the word, that the Futurist/Rapturian crowd will not tell you. If I was a conspiracy nut, I could have a field day with this one word.

So let me ask you to do me a favor. You tell me what the word Parousia means. And if you tell me it is the Second Coming, I will know you are just another Goomba know-it-all, squawking like a parrot, repeating what you have been told by someone else.

 

[BenJasher]

From the article: "Three Little Words" Author unknown.

The idea that Christ comes FOR the church is nowhere expressly stated in Scripture. It is an inference based upon certain presuppositions that some scholars deem implied in Scripture. The passage which many agree described Christ's coming FOR the church is in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. We should expect the word FOR to be in this passage, but it is not there. Instead, in verse 14, we find the word WITH, as well as in 1 Thessalonians 3:13, used in conjunction with His coming. This point is usually omitted in discussions on this subject. In fact, many discussions begin with verse 15 of chapter 4, thus avoiding the issue. Much emphasis is placed upon the word COMING in verse 15, and it is this word and its use we should examine.

 

[BenJasher]

And this group is after the great tribulation. You see, after Jesus second coming we are going to be gathered(raptured)... Then John sees a great multitude in heaven.. It would make sense.

- We've just came out of the tribulation
- John sees a great multitude

Yeah, and we can also be certain that this vast multitude is made up of both Old Testament and New Testament saints. We also know that the Elder talking with John says that this vast multitude which no man could number came out of the great tribulation. So, by reasonable deduction and inference, we can safely state that the Great Tribulation persisted for over 5000 years.

What does that fact do to the Rapture Theory? (Do I need to reiterate that it is only a Theory? It isn't officially recognized as a Doctrine.)

Got a light? I'm going to put the Rapture in my pipe and smoke it. :

 

[lecoop]

And this group is after the great tribulation. You see, after Jesus second coming we are going to be gathered(raptured)... Then John sees a great multitude in heaven.. It would make sense.

- We've just came out of the tribulation
- John sees a great multitude

So show me the "great tribulation" in Revelation, some time before Rev. 7. If what you say is true, then it should be easy. Just remember, this time of "great tribulation" is after the abomination event, so you should be able to point that out to me also, before chapter 7. Oh, and I guess you also need to show Jesus second coming, sometime before chapter 7.

Good luck!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Lyle E. Cooper:

Do you even understand what it means to "meet Him in the air?"

Obviously not if you think it refers to a Rapture.

1Thess 4:13-17 makes mention of the Paruosia, as well as the Harpazo (what you think is a Rapture). Several other verses and passages do this as well.

However, the Parousia is a word that can be difficult to discover the meaning to. When I went to see what was said about the Parousia on the internet, everything I found simply said it was the Second Coming. Not one place I went to offered to give a clear definition of what it was.

The Second Coming may very well be described in the New Testament as a Parousia, but the Parousia isn't entirely, on its own, The Second Coming. The one isn't necessarily the other. It was something else first and foremost. And the background meaning is what is lacking in the Futurist understanding.

That is a shame. I know what the word means. There is a simple detail that gives a whole new twist of meaning to the word, that the Futurist/Rapturian crowd will not tell you. If I was a conspiracy nut, I could have a field day with this one word.

So let me ask you to do me a favor. You tell me what the word Parousia means. And if you tell me it is the Second Coming, I will know you are just another Goomba know-it-all, squawking like a parrot, repeating what you have been told by someone else.

It is really not as difficult as you might make it out to be: it is a word with a definition.

The terminator left. When he left, he said, "I'll be back." From that moment on, he was "coming." Jesus rose up into the clouds, and disappeared from sight. Two angels suddenly appeared and said,

Acts 1:11 Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus was here on earth. He left. He is coming back. This is not difficult.

Parousia then, means "coming." The KJV translators translated this word as "coming" 22 times, and as "presense" two more times. Thayers lexicon puts it this way: " the future visible return from heaven of Jesus..."

What does it mean "to meet Him in the air?" It means exactly what it says! As the words of the song: "there is going to be a meeting in the air!" Again, this is not a difficult concept.

Somehow though, I have a feeling you are going to make this difficult!

Coop

 

[Zero Link]

So show me the "great tribulation" in Revelation, some time before Rev. 7. If what you say is true, then it should be easy. Just remember, this time of "great tribulation" is after the abomination event, so you should be able to point that out to me also, before chapter 7. Oh, and I guess you also need to show Jesus second coming, sometime before chapter 7.

Good luck!

Coop

Coop you should know revelations is not in complete order. If so this case would be solved aloong time ago. But what is in order is what Matthew wrote. Matthews 24.. It came straight from Jesus' mouth. And Jesus mentions no rapture... If so I would like to see the scripture(s) or explain where the rapture takes place in Matthews 24.

 

[lecoop]

Coop you should know revelations is not in complete order. If so this case would be solved aloong time ago. But what is in order is what Matthew wrote. Matthews 24.. It came straight from Jesus' mouth. And Jesus mentions no rapture... If so I would like to see the scripture(s) or explain where the rapture takes place in Matthews 24.

Ah! Now I see! Who told you that Revelation is not in chronological order? You see, people try to obtain end time doctrine and chronology from minor scriptures, and then have to warp the chronology of Revelation to fit. WRONG! One must start with the major work on the end times, i.e., Revelation, and obtain chronology there; then fill in with the minor scriptures. Van Kampen and Rosenthal make this mistake, along with many others. Truely, there is no need to change the chronology of Revelation, since it makes perfect sense as it was given to John and as he wrote it. If you disagree, please bring up your disagreements, and we will look at them.

Yes, I will agree that Matthew is in chronological order. And this fits with Revelation, in the same order that John gives us. Again, if you disagree, please show where you disagree. For the most part, Matthew, up to verse 14, in parallel with the first four seals. Agreed?

Then verse 15 is about the abomination, which John shows us is in chapters 11-13. In verses 27 on, Jesus is speaking of His return. John shows this in chapter 19.

You are right: Jesus does not mention the rapture. Why? Because he is speaking of the final week of Israel - not the final week for the church! You will note that it is called "Jacob's trouble," not "Paul's trouble." There is very little in the Olivet discourse that is about the church. I know, many want to find the rapture in the angels sent out to gather the "elect," but I disagree.

So where would the rapture be, in Matt. 24, if it was there? Probably between verse 14 and 15. Jesus skips entirely over the first half of the week, and His first mention then, of the 70th week, is of the abomination.

Coop

 

[Zero Link]

Ah! Now I see! Who told you that Revelation is not in chronological order? You see, people try to obtain end time doctrine and chronology from minor scriptures, and then have to warp the chronology of Revelation to fit. WRONG! One must start with the major work on the end times, i.e., Revelation, and obtain chronology there; then fill in with the minor scriptures. Van Kampen and Rosenthal make this mistake, along with many others. Truely, there is no need to change the chronology of Revelation, since it makes perfect sense as it was given to John and as he wrote it. If you disagree, please bring up your disagreements, and we will look at them.

Yes, I will agree that Matthew is in chronological order. And this fits with Revelation, in the same order that John gives us. Again, if you disagree, please show where you disagree. For the most part, Matthew, up to verse 14, in parallel with the first four seals. Agreed?

Then verse 15 is about the abomination, which John shows us is in chapters 11-13. In verses 27 on, Jesus is speaking of His return. John shows this in chapter 19.

You are right: Jesus does not mention the rapture. Why? Because he is speaking of the final week of Israel - not the final week for the church! You will note that it is called "Jacob's trouble," not "Paul's trouble." There is very little in the Olivet discourse that is about the church. I know, many want to find the rapture in the angels sent out to gather the "elect," but I disagree.

So where would the rapture be, in Matt. 24, if it was there? Probably between verse 14 and 15. Jesus skips entirely over the first half of the week, and His first mention then, of the 70th week, is of the abomination.

Coop

Hmm, I don't believe Matthews verse 14 -15 talks about the rapture.
Matt. 24: 14 talks can be compared to the two witnesses in Rev.11: 1-10

And Rev.11: 1-10 doesn't explain the rapture. It only explains how the people will stand up and preach the word of God, only to be killed by anti-christ, then it clearly states after the great tribulation they will either raptured to be with Jesus or rise to reign with Jesus, and the whole world will see them rising, taking over.

Rev. 11:

11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

And I still don't see exactly how it is in order. The only way to prove that the rapture is real, is for you to place the scriptures in correct order pointing out the rapture.

 

[lecoop]

Hmm, I don't believe Matthews verse 14 -15 talks about the rapture.
Matt. 24: 14 talks can be compared to the two witnesses in Rev.11: 1-10

It does not speak of the rapture. All I am saying is, this is where the rapture would be in Jesus' chronology.

Yes, this gospel shall be preached in all the world, but that will be before "the end comes." Why do you relate this to the two witnesses? Are they the "last" witness before the end?

And Rev.11: 1-10 doesn't explain the rapture. It only explains how the people will stand up and preach the word of God, only to be killed by anti-christ, then it clearly states after the great tribulation they will either raptured to be with Jesus or rise to reign with Jesus, and the whole world will see them rising, taking over.

Of course Rev 11 is not about the rapture! It is about the two witnesses. Yes, the two witnesses will be "raptured" or caught up to heaven, after they have been dead for 3 1/2 days, but this still is not the rapture of the church, which we see the results of, in chapter 7, as the great crowd that no one could number.

And I still don't see exactly how it is in order. The only way to prove that the rapture is real, is for you to place the scriptures in correct order pointing out the rapture.

Paul shows us the rapture, as being caught up together in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. This is as real as God's word, which He has magnified even above His great name. How real is His name? Paul gives us hints that this will be before the "day of the Lord," and states clearly that it will be before the wrath of God. John tells us that His wrath starts during the sixth seal, which just before the 70th week and Day of the Lord begin. Therefore, a pre-70th week rapture is shown. In Revelation, that would be sometime before the 7th seal. How amazing, that we see this great crowd in heaven, just before the 7th seal is broken!

Where do you have difficulties with the order? The seals are broken in order, the trumpets are sounded in order, and the vials are poured out in order.

Coop