Facts, Truth.. Please read.

[BenJasher]

I figured one of you would post that. That proves there will be a rapture, but the timing doesn't match the pre-trib believer's timing... If you would read the entire Mathews 24, you would see that that scripture is all the way at the bottom, after the great tribulation.. And all of what Mathew wrote *which is coming straight from Jesus's mouth" Is in order. Now can you deny that?

I have to ask: How does Matthew 24 prove there will be a Rapture?
Again, only the facts, please.

 

[BenJasher]

I apologize for not getting to this earlier. But due to the ice storm, I have been without electricity and therefore internet access for the past week. I just came back online today.

I was in the process of composing a response to something Coop said before I went to black. Good thing I saved it, huh?

It is really not as difficult as you might make it out to be: it is a word with a definition.

The terminator left. When he left, he said, "I'll be back." From that moment on, he was "coming." Jesus rose up into the clouds, and disappeared from sight. Two angels suddenly appeared and said,

Acts 1:11 Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus was here on earth. He left. He is coming back. This is not difficult.

Parousia then, means "coming." The KJV translators translated this word as "coming" 22 times, and as "presense" two more times. Thayers lexicon puts it this way: " the future visible return from heaven of Jesus..."

What does it mean "to meet Him in the air?" It means exactly what it says! As the words of the song: "there is going to be a meeting in the air!" Again, this is not a difficult concept.

Well, at least you tried to not sound like a parrot. But I noticed that in your search for a better definition, you ran into the same problem I described. Noone wants to go to the trouble of giving any depth to the definition.

(By the way, it was in Running Man where Arnold first said "I'll be back.")

For the authors of the New Testament to use a simple word like Parousia to describe something as historically significant as the Second Coming, and for there to be no underlying depth of detail to that word is absurd to me.

Catch my drift?

Somehow though, I have a feeling you are going to make this difficult!

Coop

Not really. No reason to do that. I just want more detail. God is in the details... Remember that?

That the word is translated as "coming" is almost a trivial nuisance. It is like they tried so hard not to say something.

But if you look at the manners and customs of that time, what you will see is that Parousia is still used today in State visits.

Basically it describes a visit by a dignitary. Jesus said He was coming to receive a Kingdom. That is what His coming is all about. It isn’t to take us out of this world for some reason. The fact of His coming to receive a Kingdom would of course make this a State visit by a Dignitary of no small stature.

But here is what a Parousia is.

A protocol of State where a visiting dignitary was conducted into the city they were visiting by the people of that city. The political stature of the dignitary dictated how elaborate the customs and ceremonies were. But basically the event took place like this:

As the dignitary approached the town, the town folk would go out to meet him outside the city, and there they would give the proper greetings and then escort him into the city. Advance notice is always given. It would be rude and a breach of protocol to not notify the leaders and elders that you were coming. For the lower ranking dignitary, it would probably be just the elders and leaders of the community that would meet with him outside the city to escort him in.

This was done as much for the safety of the visiting dignitary as it was anything else. Bandits, hiwaymen and thugs of every type preyed on travelers in those days. It wasn't safe to be out in the open country without an escort.

But if the visiting dignitary was very important, he would have criers go ahead of him into the city to announce his arrival. This would dictate a bigger turn-out to escort him into town. But if this visiting dignitary was a beloved king, not only would he have criers announcing his arrival, but the whole town would show up to greet him and then they would escort him into the city. In the case of the King of Kings coming to town, everyone who has ever been a subject of His Kingdom will come to meet Him. He has always been the object of our adoration and worship. Our hearts will leap in exultation when He appears. He isn’t coming to take us to His Kingdom. We are going to meet Him in the air as He comes to receive His Kingdom. What a day that will be!

We have a parousia every time someone important comes to town. When the Governor comers to town, the Mayor and members of the city Council go to meet him at the airport, and then escort him into town. It is proper protocol, and it is just good manners. But it is also a textbook example of a parousia.

When we go to the airport, do we get on the Governor's plane and go somewhere with him? No. He got off his plane and came into town with us.

But let’s say the local Guard Unit that has been on Active Duty overseas for two years comes home. Would they be considered to be State dignitaries? No. But nearly everyone in town would meet them at the airport, and it would be a major event, and a joyous occasion. Again, this would be the Greek idea of a Parousia.

Would we board another plane and go back to Iraq with our sons and brothers who have just come home? No. And the word parousia carries this same thought. He isn't going to all the trouble to come this far so we can go somewhere else with Him. This is His destination. It is our joy and privilege to meet Him and escort Him into the city.

To say that Parousia is merely a "coming" is to say the Goodyear Blimp is just a balloon. But to state dogmatically that the Parousia is the Second Coming is to take liberty with the Scriptures and eschatology that is unwarranted and unwise.

When we get the kinks worked out of Parousia, we will focus our attention on Epiphania, and then Apokalupsos. :wink:

 

[Zero Link]

*shakes head in sorrow* I don't know what to believe anymore.. The more i keep reading, the more i keep studying.. The more i believe in the rapture. Both make sense.. Its hard for me to explain because I will mess up the words, plus someone will just mix the scriptures around and make it seem as if there isn't a rapture.. Idk if its true or not.. My head hurt.. I need to take a break from all of this.. We'll just see when that time comes.

 

[lecoop]

BenJasher

The only problem with your theory, and that is all it is, is that there will be few on earth that have any desire at all to meet him! Most of the believers (those that turned to God after the angels preached to them) will have been put to death. Probably the remnant will be the biggest group of "believers" left on earth. I put that in quotes, because they will not become believers until they see Him! So, please tell me who it is that will go to meet Him?

Did you not read: "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

"All the tribes" shall mourn! Sorry, but your theory is laughable!

Second, you just cannot find your meaning in the simple Greek word, "Parousia." It is just like our word, "coming." It has a simple meaning. What you have done (or someone else has done and you agreed with him) is add meaning to fulfill your human reasoning.

I agree with you that if the President came to Tulsa, and preannounced His coming, many of the local dignitaries would meet Him, as well as many common folks. What you forget is, Jesus is not going to preannounce His coming! He will come as a thief. It will be just like a NNRI (no-notice random inspection) made by the Inspector General. When a general makes a usual visit, it is with notice, and he is met as you suggested, by all the local officers. However, the IG (inspector General) sometimes likes to make unannounced inspections, to make sure things are as they should be. (BTDTGTS - Been there; done that; got the tee-shirt)

A major (the battalion commander) showed up at midnight, while I was on duty as CQ "charge of quarters," and wanted to see the 40 man "back up force" we were suppose to have ready at a minute's notice to protect the "nukes." Problem was, we had a battery party the night before! After about 10 minutes, I had three guys, not too drunk, that were holding each other up. The major was screaming at me to show him the back up force. I took off my stripes and threw them at him, and he threw them back, saying, I don't want your stripes; I want to see your back up force.

It was a sad story, but the point was, if the battalion commander showed up announced, the whole battery would have been standing at attention when he arrive in the sedan, flags flying.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

(By the way, it was in Running Man where Arnold first said "I'll be back.")

Nope, nope, nope, Ben, you are wrong. He said it in The Terminator. He said, "Killian, I'll be back!" in The Running Man. :

 

[BenJasher]

Nope. He said it to Richard Dawson just before he was sent down the tube. I got both brain cells in agreement on that one.


I just can't pass this one up:

I agree with you that if the President came to Tulsa, and preannounced His coming, many of the local dignitaries would meet Him, as well as many common folks. What you forget is, Jesus is not going to preannounce His coming! He will come as a thief.

To come as a thief means to come and steal what you have. It is a warning of loss, not reward. Not only that, but He tells us that "if the man of the house had known at what hour the thief would come..." Then He turns around and gives us little hints that we will know when He comes.

Where did you get the impression Jesus was not going to preannounce His coming? God would have to be a liar for that to be true.

Surely the Lord Jehovah will do nothing, except he first reveal his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Then, Jesus indicated this in the Parable of the 10 Virgins, (which was about His coming as well as anything else): "At the midnight hour, a crier went through the streets crying; 'Behold the Bridegroom cometh.' "

Where you futurists get the notion of no man knowing the day or the hour is when Jesus answered a question about the end of the Age they were then living in. He told them that only His Father in heaven knew the answer to that, and He didn't even share that knowledge with the Angels of Heaven.

He never did give us any reason to think that we wouldn't know, or have "pre-knowledge" of His coming. End of the Age=Like a thief. Noone knew til it was over with. It brought about great irreplaceable loss to those who weren't able to recognize or accept it. His coming however will happen (and did happen) with plenty of pre-warning. The End of the Age and His Coming are not one and the same. To take the warnings for one and apply it to the other is to take things out of context. Then you become blind to the truth of either.

If you become blind, only the blind will be able to relate to what you say.

It is terribly convenient for the Futurist to be able to forecast everything into the future somewhere. It becomes a magic eraser that allows you to not have to consider the theological and eschatological mistakes you have made. "Don't worry about it. It hasn't happened yet." Or my favorite: "We'll understand it better over there." Wherever "over there" is supposed to be, I have no clue. It is nonsensical gobbledy-gook. Just like the whole Rapture scenario.

Ya know, when you begin to see things from the historical view point, the Rapture disappears. It is only in the theology of the Futurist that the Rapture can even exist. You won't find a Preterist, (Radical or partial) or Historicist blabbing about the Rapture.

(I have edited out my last comments for fear of them being inflammatory. God forbid I say anything inflammatory.)

 

[Vic C.]

Nope. He said it to Richard Dawson just before he was sent down the tube. I got both brain cells in agreement on that one.

...and I have imdb.com and both movies on my side! ;-)

LOL, this is simple deduction... use your brain. Which movie came first. Duh! LOL :

Which came first? The Terminator!

What did he say? "I'll be back!"

What did he say in The Running Man? "Hey, Damon. I'll be back."

What was Dawson's name in the Running Man? Damon Killian

 

[lecoop]

Coop's comments in dark red

Nope. He said it to Richard Dawson just before he was sent down the tube. I got both brain cells in agreement on that one.


I just can't pass this one up:

leCoop wrote:
I agree with you that if the President came to Tulsa, and preannounced His coming, many of the local dignitaries would meet Him, as well as many common folks. What you forget is, Jesus is not going to preannounce His coming! He will come as a thief.


To come as a thief means to come and steal what you have. It is a warning of loss, not reward. Not only that, but He tells us that "if the man of the house had known at what hour the thief would come..." Then He turns around and gives us little hints that we will know when He comes.

Jesus is not a thief! He will not steal when He comes. However, a thief comes at night, and at a time least expected. That is the point that Jesus was making.

Matt 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

The only comparison Jesus was making between Himself and a thief, was that both will come unannounced, and at a time least expected.

Paul also agrees:

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Jesus will not come to steal, but will come AS a thief, at a time least expected.

Peter also agrees:

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;...

Jesus says it the last time:

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief....

Will we know when? Some may know the year, some may know the month, some may even know the week, but no one will know the day nor the hour in that day. How then could anyone go to meet Him?

Where did you get the impression Jesus was not going to preannounce His coming? God would have to be a liar for that to be true.

Amos 3:7 wrote:
Surely the Lord Jehovah will do nothing, except he first reveal his secret unto his servants the prophets.

I get the impression from these verses. God will certainly let us know that the time is approaching, but He will not tell us the day nor the hour.

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:50
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Matthew 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Luke 12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware,...

Then, Jesus indicated this in the Parable of the 10 Virgins, (which was about His coming as well as anything else): "At the midnight hour, a crier went through the streets crying; 'Behold the Bridegroom cometh.' "

As you said, this is a parable.

Where you futurists get the notion of no man knowing the day or the hour is when Jesus answered a question about the end of the Age they were then living in. He told them that only His Father in heaven knew the answer to that, and He didn't even share that knowledge with the Angels of Heaven.

How can it be any clearer when Jesus puts His coming back to back with "no man knows?"


Matthew 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Of course you are free to believe that this verse is referring to something back in 70 AD if you choose. I choose to believe that this is in reference to His coming in the future.

He never did give us any reason to think that we wouldn't know, or have "pre-knowledge" of His coming. End of the Age=Like a thief. Noone knew til it was over with. It brought about great irreplaceable loss to those who weren't able to recognize or accept it. His coming however will happen (and did happen) with plenty of pre-warning. The End of the Age and His Coming are not one and the same. To take the warnings for one and apply it to the other is to take things out of context. Then you become blind to the truth of either.

So please tell me what age ended, and what age started, and when this happened?

If you become blind, only the blind will be able to relate to what you say.

And if I see, and teach the truth, many will read, and learn.

It is terribly convenient for the Futurist to be able to forecast everything into the future somewhere. It becomes a magic eraser that allows you to not have to consider the theological and eschatological mistakes you have made. "Don't worry about it. It hasn't happened yet." Or my favorite: "We'll understand it better over there." Wherever "over there" is supposed to be, I have no clue. It is nonsensical gobbledy-gook. Just like the whole Rapture scenario.

You can stay and "tribulate" if you choose. I choose to meet Him in the air!

Ya know, when you begin to see things from the historical view point, the Rapture disappears. It is only in the theology of the Futurist that the Rapture can even exist. You won't find a Preterist, (Radical or partial) or Historicist blabbing about the Rapture.

For someone that can read, the rapture will and can never disappear. Else they have lost some pages in their bible. Paul makes the rapture very clear. Jesus told us where we would go after the meeting in the air.

(I have edited out my last comments for fear of them being inflammatory. God forbid I say anything inflammatory.)

:-D You did well!
_________________
Rev. 5:13: "And I heard every created thing saying..."

The angels of the Lord are stacking multiplied bushels of blessings around your house because they know that the King is inside.

 

[Zero Link]

The only problem with your theory, and that is all it is, is that there will be few on earth that have any desire at all to meet him! Most of the believers (those that turned to God after the angels preached to them) will have been put to death.

Coop does have a point. I can agree with him there. Because the minute you repent, and Jesus forgives you for your sins, you are a saint... your slate is now clean.

What you forget is, Jesus is not going to preannounce His coming! He will come as a thief. It will be just like a NNRI (no-notice random inspection) made by the Inspector General.

And again, he proves another point.

Matthews 24:

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

If Jesus is coming like a thief in the night, and no man knows the day or the time.. Then how can he come unexpectingly when he will show signs of his coming? The earthquake, the lightning in the sky and etc..

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

That doesn't sound like a theif to me.. If a thief was coming, he wouldn't bring a flash light, drums, and light up shoes now would he? What im trying to say is, he wouldn't tell you he's coming, then tell you to be prepared, then before he robs you he plays the drums, turn on his flash light and run around in his light up shoes, trying to get your attention... you would then prepare at the last minute.. and you would know when hes coming. So thats no way a theif would do it, and God says hes coming like a theif at night.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

NOTE: I am not trying to make it seem as if Jesus is a thief.. He will only come LIKE a thief... Not as a thief.
BenJasher said:

To come as a thief means to come and steal what you have.

haha exactly.. *talks in a spooky way* Jesus Comes to take his people from this earth! xD

It is terribly convenient for the Futurist to be able to forecast everything into the future somewhere. It becomes a magic eraser that allows you to not have to consider the theological and eschatological mistakes you have made. "Don't worry about it. It hasn't happened yet." Or my favorite: "We'll understand it better over there." Wherever "over there" is supposed to be, I have no clue. It is nonsensical gobbledy-gook. Just like the whole Rapture scenario.

Ya know, when you begin to see things from the historical view point, the Rapture disappears. It is only in the theology of the Futurist that the Rapture can even exist. You won't find a Preterist, (Radical or partial) or Historicist blabbing about the Rapture.

Wow you sound exactly like the people who tried disagreed with Noah when he was telling them about the flood.. Believers knew it was true so they were wise enough to get in the ark with Noah and the animals. XD :-D

It is terribly convenient for the Futurist to be able to forecast everything into the future somewhere.

Those are pretty strong words against Futurists my friend.

Matthews: 24

25See, I have told you ahead of time.

If Jesus told you these things ahead of time, believe in him... Because he only speaks the truth.. And if he tells you something thats going to happen in the future, and its the truth.. Isn't that like you literally seeing into the future aswell? I mean Jesus told you.. Its your decision to believe it or not but you can still see whats going to happen, and you can't do anything but witness everything he said unfolding.. If i were to tell a none believer exactly whats going to happen(according to the bible) and it happens. They would think i can see into the future right? Well in this case you can say Jesus literally allowed me to see into the future.

But sheesh, im still very confused.


edit:

Here is something i stumbled on.. This is regarding to 2 Thess.. Talking about the Restrainers:

But Paul says that something is restraining it. Something through the course of the centuries has been restraining lawlessness, preventing total anarchy. And Jesus told us what that is; he said to his disciples, "You are the salt of the earth; ..."{Matt 5:13a RSV}. "You are the light of the world," {Matt 5:14a RSV}. Salt prevents corruption from spreading: light dispels darkness, and it is the presence of the people of God on earth that restrains the forces of evil. This is a remarkable thing, yet it is the truth. Wherever godliness diminishes -- sometimes because of forces within the Church as well as without -- a spirit of lawlessness takes over.

hmm

 

[BenJasher]

...and I have imdb.com and both movies on my side! ;-)

LOL, this is simple deduction... use your brain. Which movie came first. Duh! LOL :

Which came first? The Terminator!

What did he say? "I'll be back!"

What did he say in The Running Man? "Hey, Damon. I'll be back."

What was Dawson's name in the Running Man? Damon Killian

Hey, I only claimed to be using two brain cells.

 

[BenJasher]

Jesus is not a thief! He will not steal when He comes. However, a thief comes at night, and at a time least expected. That is the point that Jesus was making.

I never said He was a thief. I said that when He likened His coming to that of a thief, it was always in the context of a warning of loss. All of the scriptures you so kindly took the time to quote for us here flatly state that. Maybe you enjoy wasting your time arguing your case in my favor. I dunno. But it isn't the first time you have done it.

Matt 24
(truncated by me for readability)

The only comparison Jesus was making between Himself and a thief, was that both will come unannounced, and at a time least expected.

Your statement right here vindicates my statement about the need for Futurists to clearly think through what they believe and teach. If you were to carefully analyze the context of this verse, you would perceive the warning of loss for the unprepared.

At a time like this my grandkids go: "Duh!"

Paul also agrees:

1 Thessalonians 5:2

Peter also agrees:

2 Peter 3:10

Jesus says it the last time:

Revelation 16:15

And all of these verses are given in the context of a warning, just like I said.

I get the impression from these verses. God will certainly let us know that the time is approaching, but He will not tell us the day nor the hour.

You are a master of eisegesis, aren't you?

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Jesus said these words in answer to a question from His disciples about the end of the Age. Please, pay attention to context here.

Matthew 24:50
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Again, look at the context. This is a warning to the lazy steward.

Matthew 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Ok. I will give you one. But is one verse all you could find? I figured you would be able to do better than that. Hmm...

Then, Jesus indicated this in the Parable of the 10 Virgins, (which was about His coming as well as anything else): "At the midnight hour, a crier went through the streets crying; 'Behold the Bridegroom cometh.' "

As you said, this is a parable.

What is that statement supposed to prove? What!?!? Wasn't much of what Jesus taught in the form of a parable?

So please tell me what age ended, and what age started, and when this happened?

Are you so blind you can't see it? It was the Age of the Law and Prophets. We are no longer under that dispensation. We are now living in the Age of Grace. And we have been since Jesus was crucified by the Sanhedrin. But this is a whole other thread and lengthy debate.

And if I see, and teach the truth, many will read, and learn.

Actually, in this day and age, people are more apt to flock to hear what you have to say if you tickle their ears by telling them what they want to hear. But even Jesus noticed that the crowds grew large when He performed miracles, but their heart was far from being able to walk with Him in the bad times. So don't count on people flocking to hear what you have to say if you preach the Truth. You will be disappointed. Truth is never popular.

For someone that can read, the rapture will and can never disappear.(This statement makes absolutely no sense.) Else they have lost some pages in their bible. Paul makes the rapture very clear. Jesus told us where we would go after the meeting in the air.

No. Paul doesn't make the Rapture clear. Quite the contrary. Some of the strongest arguments against the Rapture comes from Paul's writings. Jesus never told us we would go anywhere.

 

[lecoop]

Ben Jasher said

[quote:433e6]leCoop wrote:
For someone that can read, the rapture will and can never disappear.(Ben Jasher answered: This statement makes absolutely no sense.) Else they have lost some pages in their bible. Paul makes the rapture very clear. Jesus told us where we would go after the meeting in the air.

No. Paul doesn't make the Rapture clear. Quite the contrary. Some of the strongest arguments against the Rapture comes from Paul's writings. Jesus never told us we would go anywhere.[/quote:433e6]

Let's break it down:

For someone that can read, the rapture will never disappear.
For someone that can read, the rapture can never disappear.

Why do I say this? What is the "rapture?" It is a "catching away."

1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [raptured] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

"shall be caught up" is the Greek word, "harpazo." It is translated 4 times in the KJV as "catch up" and twice more as "catch away."

Therefore, for anyone that can read these words, the hope of the "catching away" will never disappear. Pre-tribbers believe that this has never happened, but will happen soon in the future.

BenJasher had said, "Ya know, when you begin to see things from the historical view point, the Rapture disappears." But when you read what Paul said, the rapture can never "disappear," but will remain what we are watching for.

Did Jesus tell us where we are going? Of course He did:

John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Coop said:

Let's break it down:

For someone that can read, the rapture will never disappear.
For someone that can read, the rapture can never disappear.

Why do I say this? What is the "rapture?" It is a "catching away."

1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [raptured] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

"shall be caught up" is the Greek word, "harpazo." It is translated 4 times in the KJV as "catch up" and twice more as "catch away."

{BenJasher responds by asking:Did you not read where I posted all thirteen instances of the Greek word Harpazo in the New Testament? Obviously not. It is on page 10 of the Rapture of the Church thread.}

Therefore, for anyone that can read these words, the hope of the "catching away" will never disappear.

{BenJasher responds by saying:I have no intention of taking away anyone's hope of being "caught away". It is your understanding of what that means that I believe needs to be tweaked a bit.}

Pre-tribbers believe that this has never happened, but will happen soon in the future.

{BenJasher responds by saying: Well. You know how I feel about Pre-Tribbers. The Bible is neither a Fairy Tale, nor is it Science Fiction. But that is what they turn it into.}

BenJasher had said, "Ya know, when you begin to see things from the historical view point, the Rapture disappears."

But when you read what Paul said, the rapture can never "disappear," but will remain what we are watching for.

{BenJasher says: You first have to conclusively prove the factual existence of a Rapture for this last statement to have any footing in this argument. This cannot be done exegetically. You have been trying for 16 pages of another thread, and 4 pages here so far, and you haven't done it yet. If you ever started using exegetics to defend your viewpoint, you would eventually see things my way.}

Did Jesus tell us where we are going? Of course He did:

{BenJasher says: No. No. No. He never told us we were going to be going anywhere. As a matter of fact, in the Garden, Jesus prayed to the Father that His disciples not be taken out of this world.

What? Is Jesus schizophrenic? Does He want one thing one time, and the opposite the next time? Does He say one thing when He fully meant the opposite? Does He need a Lithium injection? The answer is NO.}

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

{BenJasher says: Ok Coop: Follow the bouncing ball...

• 
  1) "I will come again"
  
  a)That means He is going to be coming here.
  
  2) He will receive us unto Himself
  
  a)Self-explanatory. No comment needed.
  
  3) That where I am, you may be also
  
  a)If He comes here and receives us; where is He? He is here. And where He is, we may be also. And that place would be here.

Take your Rapture glasses off. They are preventing you from seeing the truth.

There is no reason to believe that these words of Jesus tell us we are going to be leaving here. It is the meek that will inherit the earth.}



{BenJasher finishes his remarks by stating:
Coop;

You are so infatuated with your escapist theology (which is a lie) that you cannot discriminate the finer details of what you read. And these details will undo your escapist theology.}

 

[lecoop]

{BenJasher finishes his remarks by stating:

Coop;

You are so infatuated with your escapist theology (which is a lie) that you cannot discriminate the finer details of what you read. And these details will undo your escapist theology.}

:smt043 :smt043 :smt043

I guess in your own eyes, you are the only one that can read these verses and understand the "finer details" or what you are reading! I and Dr. Thomas Ice, Jerry Jenkins, Ed Hindson, and (we could step back in time to) "Clarence Larkin," all read with "pre-trib" glasses on!
How funny! :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

I know it is funny, because Jesus told us where He would be, when we would be with Him. Of course, you read this scripture with pre-conceived glasses on.

John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Now, let's take this one step at a time. Where was Jesus when He said these words? Answer: on earth.

Jesus said He was to go. Where was He to go? Answer: He went to heaven.

What did Jesus say He was to do in heaven? He said, "I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you. Answer: Jesus went to heaven, to prepare a place for US!

Next, Jesus said that He was to come [to earth, where He was standing when He made these comments] and receive us unto Him. Now, WHERE will He be when He receives us unto Himself? Paul gives us the answer!

"..l.Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."

Ah! So Jesus is not on the earth when we meet Him! Why would you suppose He would call this meeting in the air rather than on the ground? Very simply because the above verses - I go to prepare a place - show us that He is not coming to stay on earth, but to take us to our mansions!

Many, many people understand this, this way.

Here is how David Guizic put it:

c. I go to prepare a place for you: You only prepare a place for someone if you are confident of their arrival. Jesus could only say this to the group after Judas had left. He would not go to prepare a place for Judas - at least not a place in His Father’s house.

d. Many mansions: In light of the ancient Greek, "mansions" is better translated "dwelling places." The noun mone (connected to the verb meno, "stay" or "remain") means "a place to stay." But in light of God’s character, it is better to translate it mansions. Whatever dwelling place God has for us in heaven, it will be as glorious as a mansion.

e. To receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also: The entire focus of heaven is being reunited with Jesus. Heaven is heaven not because of streets of gold, or pearly gates, or even the presence of angels. Heaven is heaven because Jesus is there.

i. Take comfort; even as He prepares a place for us, He prepares us for that place.

Matthew Henry's commentary puts it like this:

[3.] There are mansions there; that is, First, Distinct dwellings, an apartment for each. Perhaps there is an allusion to the priests’ chambers that were about the temple. In heaven there are accommodations for particular saints; though all shall be swallowed up in God, yet our individuality shall not be lost there; every Israelite had his lot in Canaan, and every elder a seat, Rev. 4:4. Secondly, Durable dwellings. Monai, from mneioµ, maneo, abiding places. The house itself is lasting; our estate in it is not for a term of years, but a perpetuity. Here we are as in an inn; in heaven we shall gain a settlement. The disciples had quitted their houses to attend Christ, who had not where to lay his head, but the mansions in heaven will make them amends. [4.] There are many mansions, for there are many sons to be brought to glory, and Christ exactly knows their number, nor will be straitened for room by the coming of more company than he expects. He had told Peter that he should follow him (ch. 13:36), but let not the rest be discouraged, in heaven there are mansions for them all.[3.] There are mansions there; that is, First, Distinct dwellings, an apartment for each. Perhaps there is an allusion to the priests’ chambers that were about the temple. In heaven there are accommodations for particular saints; though all shall be swallowed up in God, yet our individuality shall not be lost there; every Israelite had his lot in Canaan, and every elder a seat, Rev. 4:4. Secondly, Durable dwellings. Monai, from mneioµ, maneo, abiding places. The house itself is lasting; our estate in it is not for a term of years, but a perpetuity. Here we are as in an inn; in heaven we shall gain a settlement. The disciples had quitted their houses to attend Christ, who had not where to lay his head, but the mansions in heaven will make them amends. [4.] There are many mansions, for there are many sons to be brought to glory, and Christ exactly knows their number, nor will be straitened for room by the coming of more company than he expects. He had told Peter that he should follow him (ch. 13:36), but let not the rest be discouraged, in heaven there are mansions for them all.

Therefore, you are free to believe something different about this verse. I think it is telling us that Jesus will come and take us to our mansions, in heaven. Of course, if you refuse to go, I can't imagine that you would be forced against your will...

Are these mansions real? Here is a quote from someone that has been to heaven many times and has seen them:

"I then noticed other beautiful white buildings in the vicinity of hte beautiful river, just behind the tall trees. Jesus took me to one of the dwelllings. It was a white mansion, sumptuously landscaped with a profusion of colorful flowers and leafy trees. The most wonderful flowers I'd ever seen graced the doorway.......Inside the palace, everything was colorful and shiny."

She goes on to describe the vision God gave her of the rapture of the church:

"the air was filled with white, moving objects. As the vision clarified, I saw people popping out of the earth everywhere and flying up into the air. The sky was literally filled will flying people, like birds in migration. It was so unusual it was shocking...I had heard the rapture discribed before, but I had never imagined what an amazing spectacle it would be...I saw my one year old granddaughter. She was wearing a white robe, and her hair had grown to sholder length. She looked pretty grown up. At first I saw her at her house in normal clothing. Then suddenly she was wearing a white robe and flying through the air. I was dumbfounded by the vision. It certainly seemed to confirm that the Lord would be returing in the very near future...

She went on to describe what happened on earth after the rapture.

These quotes are from the book, "HEAVEN is So REAL!" By Choo Thomas.

Before people get all excited about quotes from anything else than the bible, keep in mind that we have recorded in the New testament, visions and prophecies that happened to people, that were not included in the "bible" until years later. Of course this does not come close to the bible, but then, if what she saw agrees with what the bible tells us, why not enjoy what she has told us? After all, Jesus took her to heaven 17 times, for the express purpose of her writing about it.

She watched in the vision, as people started ransacking the houses of the believers, after they were gone. She saw parents trying to find their children. She saw uniformed men shooting at fleeing people.

Jessie Duplantis has a book and a video called "close encounters of the God kind." He also took a trip to heaven, and he also saw mansions. These are just two of many people in these last 20 years or so, that has been privileged to go to heaven, and come back and write about it.

Since these personal witnesses agree with what God has written in His word, why not read and enjoy them? There is a day coming soon, when we will fly up into the sky, and then will be transported to heaven. We will spend about 7 years enjoying our mansions in the sky. And then we will return to earth. Believe it.

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Hey Coop,

Another great book by someone who had a glimpse of heaven:

Within Heaven's Gates: by Rebecca R. Springer

 

[BenJasher]

Do you mean to tell me that you use the suspicious dreams and visions of people you have never met to validate what you believe? It has been well said of your generation that you have negated the word of God with the traditions of men.

I find it interesting that you would be using Matthew Henry as an authority on anything. If you value his authority on the meaning of the scriptures, you need to be reading more of his writings. You would learn a thing or two.

In the end, it doesn't matter. Your only reaction when you are confronted with truth that exposes the suspicious quality of your fallacious theology is to ridicule it. You laugh like an insane hyena.

I guess in your own eyes, you are the only one that can read these verses and understand the "finer details" or what you are reading! I and Dr. Thomas Ice, Jerry Jenkins, Ed Hindson, and (we could step back in time to) "Clarence Larkin," all read with "pre-trib" glasses on!

No. I am not the only one. Not by a long ways.Who are these others that you place yourself with as authorities on the scriptures? Have they been witness to as many resurrections as you have? I have never heard of any of them. Not that it matters that I have heard of them or not, but you seemed to be using their names as though I would recognize them as somewhat of an authority. I don't. It is the height of foolish hubris to place your own name in a list of those you consider to be of scholarly authority.

Do you really want to play that "step back in time" game with me, Bible Scholar? It will require more than the two brain cells you have been using so far if you do. Do you really want to step back in time to the beginnings of the Futurist movement? Do you really want me to expose the historical background of Futurist Theology? I don't think you do.

I don't think you are *|*|*|* aware of it, but I have been baiting you. I have purposely said things here that could have easily been challenged by someone who was a scholar of the calibre you suppose yourself to be. I haven't been challenged on any of them. Gabby came close. But I haven't seen the slightest indication that you even noticed the bait dangling in front of you. But I am not going to tell you what those things are.

Laugh if you want to.

He who puts his armor on does not laugh like he who takes his off.

 

[BenJasher]

.l.Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."

Ah! So Jesus is not on the earth when we meet Him! Why would you suppose He would call this meeting in the air rather than on the ground? Very simply because the above verses - I go to prepare a place - show us that He is not coming to stay on earth, but to take us to our mansions!

{Benjasher says: This time I know you are purposely ignoring something you know is right in order to continue this farce. Simple comparison of apples to apples and oranges to oranges will show that to "meet him in the air" is an Early Church era figure of speech. It has nothing to do with literally leaving here or going anywhere. It has to do with our glorification.

The phrase "I go to prepare a place" does in no way indicate that He will not stay here when He comes. We know that when He comes again it will be to stay and to rule the earth for a thousand years. So whoever wrote this crap has no clear idea what he is talking so authoritatively about. You need to be cautious about who you consider to be an authority on these things.}

{BenJasher says a thorough and indepth study of mansions, and the Greek words used here have more to do with occupations. He is not going to make you a house to live in; He is our House to live in. In Him we live and move and have our being. He is going to prepare occupations for us. There is going to be work for us to do when He comes again, and that is the "gist" of what He is telling us here. Paul reiterated this thought when he told us in Ephesians that we were created for good works and that we should live in them.}

Many, many people understand this, this way.

{BenJasher says: The numbers don't mean much when you analyze them. Large numbers of people left off from following Jesus toward the end of His ministry. Were they right because there were large numbers of them? The sheer weight of numbers when looked at in the scriptures will more often than not indicate error and wickedness rather than correctness and righteousness. Get off the numbers thing. The fact that few believe in the Historicist interpretation of eschatology does as much to confirm it's validity as anything else.}

 

[BenJasher]

There is a day coming soon, when we will fly up into the sky, and then will be transported to heaven. We will spend about 7 years enjoying our mansions in the sky. And then we will return to earth. Believe it.

Wazzatsmell?

It is the product of a theology that has absolutely no basis or foundation in scripture. Some would call it heresy. Some would call it a lie. Large numbers of spoon-fed believers call it truth, (but that fails to make it so). All I know is it stinks.

 

[lecoop]

BenJasher wrote

{BenJasher says: The numbers don't mean much when you analyze them. Large numbers of people left off from following Jesus toward the end of His ministry. Were they right because there were large numbers of them? The sheer weight of numbers when looked at in the scriptures will more often than not indicate error and wickedness rather than correctness and righteousness. Get off the numbers thing. ...}

This is the first thing you have written that I can agree with.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

{BenJasher says a thorough and indepth study of mansions, and the Greek words used here have more to do with occupations. He is not going to make you a house to live in; He is our House to live in. In Him we live and move and have our being. He is going to prepare occupations for us. There is going to be work for us to do when He comes again, and that is the "gist" of what He is telling us here. Paul reiterated this thought when he told us in Ephesians that we were created for good works and that we should live in them.}

Latin Vulgate
14:2 in domo Patris mei mansiones multae sunt si quo minus dixissem vobis quia vado parare vobis locum

John 14:2 (21st Century King James Version)
2In My Father's house are many mansions;...

John 14:2 (Amplified Bible)
2In My Father's house there are many dwelling places (homes)...

American Standard Version
14:2 In my Father`s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Bible in Basic English
14:2 In my Father's house are rooms enough; if it was not so, would I have said that I am going to make ready a place for you?

Darby's English Translation
14:2 In my Father`s house there are many abodes; were it not so, I had told you: for I go to prepare you a place;

Douay Rheims
14:2 In my Father's house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:2 (English Standard Version)
2In my Father's house are many rooms.

John 14:2 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places;

King James Version
14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:2 (New American Standard Bible)
2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places;

John 14:2 (New International Version)
2 In my Father's house are many rooms;...

John 14:2 (New King James Version)
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions...

Noah Webster Bible
14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Weymouth New Testament
14:2 In my Father's house there are many resting-places. Were it otherwise, I would have told you; for I am going to make ready a place for you.

World English Bible
14:2 In my Father`s house are many mansions. If it weren`t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.

John 14:2 (Wycliffe New Testament)
2 In the house of my Father be many dwellings;

Young's Literal Translation
14:2 in the house of my Father are many mansions; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you;

The Greek word is "mone {mon-ay'}" and has the following meaning:
(Thayer's lexicon)
1) a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode
2) to make an (one's) abode
3) metaph. of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers

Sorry, but every translation disagrees with you.

Coop