One simple question:
Why not just take the simple meaning of these verses? What do we see when we look up (Expecially the last week in Oklahoma?) Of course we saw clouds. What makes you all so sure that Paul did not have in mind RAIN clouds when he wrote this? Rain clouds are IN THE AIR, just where we are raptured to.
{BenJasher says Actually it is the scripture commenting on itself that makes me see the things I do. I don't need the dreams and visions of someone I don't even know or trust to tell me what these things mean. And noone has to be raised from the dead either.}
You can try to make this difficult, but just remember, God said that a child wouldn't err. It takes a 21st century human to make this complicated; to look for hidden meanings.
{BenJasher says Actually He said
though he were a child he would not err therein.
Not quite the same. Get it right if you are going to use it in an argument. You have the rest of it backwards also. It is you and your Futurist fantasies that makes things difficult. You have to rely on adding to and or taking things away from what was simply stated in the scriptures to make sense of your theology. (And I have been bringing this to your attention when you do) If your Futurist Theology is so simple why is it that there are three different flavors of it and none of them agree on even the simplest of the issues at hand? Why is it your theology needs to be continuously bolstered by things and ideas that are not specifically stated in the scriptures? Why do you continually have to step out of the scriptures to explain what is in them?
Don't even think of trying to accuse me of making things difficult.}
For every post I have posted here, using simple scriptures with simple meanings, BenJasher has comlicated each issure with some hidden meaning, as if he is the only one, or one of the few, that is smart enough to figure out all these scriptures.
{BenJasher says Stop right there. I don't need hidden meanings. Go back and take another look at what I have stated here and compare it to what you have said here. Who is complicating what? You don't use "simple scriptures". You quote scriptures, then go off into some commentary about what they could mean, ignoring the simplest of details that prove you wrong, and filled with stuff that is not only extra-scriptural, but anti-scriptural. Most of your theology is pure eisigesis. You twist the scriptures to fit your theology, instead of adjusting your theology to align itself with scripture.
Maybe sticking solely with scripture, relying on a knowledge of the original languages, and a strong foundation of Early Church History, and presenting my viewpoints exegetically is too complicated for you.
Maybe things get complicated for you when you are confronted with the simplicity of the truth.}
Why complicate things, if they make good sense just the way they are written?
{BenJasher says They do make sense the way they were written, sometimes. Many times they don't. That is why we are admonished to be students of the word. And I have nothing to be ashamed of in my debates with you.}
Paul said the dead in Christ would rise first; then we which are alive and remain would be caught up together with them (the dead in Christ that have just been resurrected) to meet Him in the air. What does rise mean? Very simply, it means, "go up." What is "up?" Of course air and clouds are up!
Pure eisigesis. Just like most of what you try to push off on people as truth, or solid Bible Study. If you *(edited out for offensive content)* took a deep breath, you would be able to answer that question yourself.
The only instance of the word "rise" in that verse was used in the context of the resurrection of the dead in Christ. The word resurrect means "to stand again". If a person was in the supine position, and made to stand again, they would have to "rise". So you figure it out Bible Scholar. And quit trying to twist this scripture to fit your theology.}
I choose to believe the simple meaning of this verse. We will meet Jesus in the air, and in the clouds. It will be what the church has called the "rapture" for centuries.
{BenJasher says Well, you can do what you want. I would think you would want to walk in the Truth. The simple meaning of this verse is that we all (see prior post above) will be glorified together when He returns at the time of the Restitution of all things. You have to include the apokatastasis if you want to keep things scriptural, even if it forces things to be a bit more difficult to grasp at first. Again we need to be workmen with no reason to be ashamed.
Get off the Rapture thing. The Church has only used the word Rapture the way it does today for less than 200 years. The word Rapture has more in common with rape than scripture. The Rapture Theory has been raping the minds of God's people long enough. Time's a coming when that will change. :wink:}
BenJasher
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