Facts, Truth.. Please read.

[Gabbylittleangel]

Ben you are starting to remind me of this passage of the man with five brothers.

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If someone has been risen from the dead, and told you of what they had seen, I dare say that you would not believe a word of it. Yet if someone were to quote chapter and verse that says Jesus raised people from the dead, you would claim to believe that!

Kind of reminds me a bit of the old country tune "Me and Jesus"

Me and Jesus, got our own thing goin'.
Me and Jesus, got it all worked out.
Me and Jesus, got our own thing goin'.
We don't need anybody to tell us what it's all about.

 

[BenJasher]

What is that supposed to mean Gabby?

Are you saying I have my own thing going on and I just ain't gonna listen to any proof you offer or anyone else offers me?

Or are you aiming that facetious smack-down at someone else?

 

[BenJasher]

Remember Coop, that if you get all uncomfortable when you receive ridicule, don't be so quick to dish it out.

Instead of making fun, why not show all the readers where in the scriptures you find the old testament saints resurrected?

Coop

Fair enough. But I have already showed you. Were you not paying attention? Go back through what I have said and see if you do not see where I have quoted scripture and verse. We have discussed at least three scriptures that plainly deal with this. Or did you not observe those details while you so eagerly sought to twist those scriptures to say something they don't.

If you can't find them, I will be glad to re-hash them for you, as soon as you tell me why they shouldn't be resurrected with the rest of us. Why should they have to wait? Why should they be left out?

Fair enough?

 

[BenJasher]

I disagree. Paul clearly stated that at the rapture, we would be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. This should immediately bring to mind when Jesus Himself was caught up:

There you go again!! :smt075

You just don't learn, do you? Twice in this last statement you injected your own interpretation into what was said instead of letting the scriptures speak for themselves.

Paul never said that "at the rapture" anything would happen. Quote him word for word if you are going to reference him. You will see he did not say such a thing if you just took the time to look at his words.

And where did you get the idea that Jesus was "caught up"? Eisigetic injection of things that aren't there. That is how lies like the Rapture gets started.

Jesus was "taken up" which is epairo in the Greek; not "caught up" which would be harpazo in the Greek. When the clouds received Him out of their sight, the Greek word for that was "hupolambano". Posilutley no mention of a rapture there. Check it out for yourself. It is in Acts 1:9 Sorry to have to break that to you.

Do you need a good Greek text to refer to?

You are beginning to bore me.

Again, this is a very simple verse, with simple words, we are to be caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.. What would a beginning reader think this meant? Of course, the clouds we see in the sky, and the air that we breath. So, readers, it is up to you to decide who is adding to the scriptures, or taking something away from them.

Genesis 3:1

The rapture is "specifically stated in the scriptures:" it is just that you don't believe it.

No. The rapture isn't specifically stated in the scriptures. Believe it.

 

[lecoop]

There you go again!!

You just don't learn, do you? Twice in this last statement you injected your own interpretation into what was said instead of letting the scriptures speak for themselves.

Paul never said that "at the rapture" anything would happen. Quote him word for word if you are going to reference him. You will see he did not say such a thing if you just took the time to look at his words.

"I say! Well I say! Went right over his head!" I can't say if Paul knew Latin or not, since I was not there! The word “rapture†comes from the Latin word rapturo, which is a translation of the Greek verb Harpazo: "caught up" that’s found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. I guess to keep the nitpicking down to a minimum, I need to quote it once again: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:..."

Neither can I say whether or not Paul came up with a name for the "catching away" either. Neither you nor I was there. However, people don't change, so someone surely coined a word or phrase for this catching away, even back then. Perhaps they called it "rapture" back then! However, the point is, you missed the point entirely, in your nitpicking! We were talking about clouds! May I suggest you go outside and look up? Maybe you will see what Paul was writing about!

And where did you get the idea that Jesus was "caught up"? Eisigetic injection of things that aren't there. That is how lies like the Rapture gets started.

Again, in straining at a gnat, you missed the point: "clouds." But you were right: I should have said, "taken up."

Jesus was "taken up" which is epairo in the Greek; not "caught up" which would be harpazo in the Greek. When the clouds received Him out of their sight, the Greek word for that was "hupolambano". Posilutley no mention of a rapture there. Check it out for yourself. It is in Acts 1:9 Sorry to have to break that to you.

Once again, straining at a gnat! The Greek word for "cloud" is "nephele ." What kind of cloud is this? It is also used here: "When ye see a cloud rise out of the west , straightway ye say , There cometh a shower ; and so it is." Once again, I was not attempting to show the method in which Jesus rose up: we were discussing clouds.

Do you need a good Greek text to refer to?

No.

You are beginning to bore me.

Your problem, not mine.

lecoop said: Quote:
Again, this is a very simple verse, with simple words, we are to be caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.. What would a beginning reader think this meant? Of course, the clouds we see in the sky, and the air that we breath. So, readers, it is up to you to decide who is adding to the scriptures, or taking something away from them.

BenJasher replied:

Genesis 3:1

Ben, it is not a hard thing to believe these simple words of Paul. "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:..."


lecoop said: Quote:
The rapture is "specifically stated in the scriptures:" it is just that you don't believe it.

BenJasher replied

No. The rapture isn't specifically stated in the scriptures. Believe it.

1Th 4:17

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Coop;

I agree that this is a simple verse with simple words. But you are repeatedly adding meaning to that simple verse with simple words, to cause it to mean something that is not there. That is known as eisigetics. It is also known as twisting the scriptures. Peter referred to people like you, doing the things you are incessantly doing with Paul's words. He called it wresting (perverting) the scriptures. He said it was the ignorant and unlearned that do these things, at grave risk of laying waste to their own souls.

And that pretty much sums up my discourse with you. You are ignorant and unlearned. You have been repeatedly been caught perverting the simple meaning of what is in plain black and white. I call you on it when I catch you doing it. You laugh at me like this was some kind of insane enjoyment for you.

You have not once, in all of our discussion considered any evidence I have given, nor joined with me in any type of exegetical survey of the scriptures. Your best attempt at exegetics ends up falling far short.

The book of proverbs calls you a fool. Look it up, wannabe Bible Scholar.

I stand by what I have said to you. I have attempted to draw you into serious Bible study, and all you can do is laugh like it was some kind of childish game. It's not.

You are a fool. You speak with the tongue of a deceiving spirit. You didn't even catch my intended meaning when I responded to your foolishness with Genesis 3:1. You may have not even read it. I know the only way you could have not begun to see things I have shared with you is to either not read or ignore most of what I have written.

I really hope you grow up someday into the Bible Scholar you pretend to be now. Have a good life. I am bored to the point of stupification with your silliness. It was fun for a while. But you hear the same joke enough times, it ceases to be funny. I am done with my part of this discussion. You guys can have it for yourselves. See ya around.

If you want to talk to me you will find me at the Gospel for Today Forums. I think it is best I withdraw from this discussion before I say something to be ashamed of.

Like I said before, when it comes to scholarship, I have no reason to be ashamed in this discussion.