Facts, Truth.. Please read.

[Zero Link]

Of course Rev 11 is not about the rapture! It is about the two witnesses. Yes, the two witnesses will be "raptured" or caught up to heaven, after they have been dead for 3 1/2 days, but this still is not the rapture of the church, which we see the results of, in chapter 7, as the great crowd that no one could number.

I don't see exactly how we are going to be raptured if we are the two witnessess.. It makes perfect sense..

11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

Then you realize this is happening ..

13At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Clearly explaining that we are the two witnesses, being raptured or reigning right after the great tribulation.. Because as you can see that earth quake is the same earthquake as the one mentioned in the 6th seal.. The signs of the Second coming of Jesus. The timing is just right, the scriptures. It fits the description perfectly.. So how can we be raptured after the two witnesses?

Lecoop said:

after they have been dead for 3 1/2 days, but this still is not the rapture of the church, which we see the results of, in chapter 7, as the great crowd that no one could number.

Lecoop said:

Paul shows us the rapture, as being caught up together in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. This is as real as God's word, which He has magnified even above His great name. How real is His name? Paul gives us hints that this will be before the "day of the Lord," and states clearly that it will be before the wrath of God. John tells us that His wrath starts during the sixth seal, which just before the 70th week and Day of the Lord begin.

Paul shows the rapture but he shows the rapture after the great tribulation. The great tribulation ends at the 6th seal.. Which is when the signs of the second coming of Jesus will appear.. The earthquake, the rapture, the war and etc... But wait! If that is so then when is God's wrath? Hmm, well lets add up the time and see if we can get this right.. The Great Tribulation lasts 3 1/2 years... It also triggers the last 7 years on earth when it starts. So lets take away 3 1/2 years of the 7 years since the great tribulation will be over in that time... That leaves us with another 3 1/2 years.. It won't take long at all to be raptured, then God can unleash his wrath on the wicked.

But anway, none of this proves to me that there is a pre trib rapture. All i see are a bunch of scriptures put together to make something thats not there *in my eyes*, visible.

 

[lecoop]

by Coop:
Of course Rev 11 is not about the rapture! It is about the two witnesses. Yes, the two witnesses will be "raptured" or caught up to heaven, after they have been dead for 3 1/2 days, but this still is not the rapture of the church, which we see the results of, in chapter 7, as the great crowd that no one could number.

I don't see exactly how we are going to be raptured if we are the two witnessess.. It makes perfect sense..

What? Who? You and I? What about the other two or so billion people? The two witnesses have NOTHING to do with the church. Please tell me why you think they are in some way related to the church. They are to be God's witnesses on earth when God unleashes His wrath on a unrepentant world. Remember, when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, He came with two witnesses also. The two witnesses will show up about 3 1/2 years after the church has been raptured, according to John.

Then you realize this is happening ..

13At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.


Clearly explaining that we are the two witnesses, being raptured or reigning right after the great tribulation.. Because as you can see that earth quake is the same earthquake as the one mentioned in the 6th seal.. The signs of the Second coming of Jesus. The timing is just right, the scriptures. It fits the description perfectly.. So how can we be raptured after the two witnesses?

WHAT? We are NOT raptured after the GT! How does this explain anything except what takes place at the end of the two witnesses time on earth? This has NOTHING to do with the church. It is NOT the same earthquake as at the 6th seal. If you follow John's chronology, this earthquake is at the end of their 1260 days of ministry. They start at the midpoint (probably about 3 1/2 days before the midpoint) and so the great earthquake is the same as the 7th vial earthquake, which ends the 70th week of Daniel.

Go back and follow John's chronology: First the seals, which Jesus started breaking, about 33 AD. All but the 6th and 7th seal have been broken. We are waiting on the 6th seal. After the sixth seal, and the rapture, the 70th week will begin with the 7th seal. The trumpets are in the first 1260 days, and the vials are in the last 1260 days, after the midpoint. Most of what we read from chapter 10 to chapter 15 are midpoint events. Now, where are the two witnesses introduced? During the midpoint "intermission," in chapter 11.

Where is the church raptured? Undoubtedly at the 6th seal, before the 70th week even starts.

[quote:430a1]

Coop said
...after they have been dead for 3 1/2 days, but this still is not the rapture of the church, which we see the results of, in chapter 7, as the great crowd that no one could number.

Paul shows us the rapture, as being caught up together in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. This is as real as God's word, which He has magnified even above His great name. How real is His name? Paul gives us hints that this will be before the "day of the Lord," and states clearly that it will be before the wrath of God. John tells us that His wrath starts during the sixth seal, which just before the 70th week and Day of the Lord begin.

Paul shows the rapture but he shows the rapture after the great tribulation. The great tribulation ends at the 6th seal.. Which is when the signs of the second coming of Jesus will appear.. The earthquake, the rapture, the war and etc... But wait! If that is so then when is God's wrath? Hmm, well lets add up the time and see if we can get this right.. The Great Tribulation lasts 3 1/2 years... It also triggers the last 7 years on earth when it starts. So lets take away 3 1/2 years of the 7 years since the great tribulation will be over in that time... That leaves us with another 3 1/2 years.. It won't take long at all to be raptured, then God can unleash his wrath on the wicked.

But anway, none of this proves to me that there is a pre trib rapture. All i see are a bunch of scriptures put together to make something thats not there *in my eyes*, visible. [/quote:430a1]

Where do you think Paul shows us the rapture after the tribulation? I have never seen such a verse.

Why do you say "The great tribulation ends at the 6th seal.." You and I both know that the time of great tribulation comes after the antichrist has performed the abomination event, that splits the 70th week in half. If you put the GT before the 6th seal, then you have to find the antichrist before the 6th seal, and the abomination before the 6th seal. We both know this is preposterous, for John is not even introduced to the antichrist until chapter 13, LONG after the 6th seal. And John shows us that the people that flee the abomination event, are shown in chapter 12, again, long after the 6th seal. Why then, do you believe that the GT must be before the 6th seal? You must have a good reason to go against the chronology of John's book.

Now you say, [at the 6th seal] "Which is when the signs of the second coming of Jesus will appear" Again, where do you come up with this stuff? You know as well as I do, that Jesus does not get on the white horse until chapter 19, LONG after the 6th seal. The signs as the sixth seal, are the fulfilment of the prophecies of Joel 2 and Isaiah 2, showing that the start of the Day of the Lord will be next. Jesus said that the signs showing His return will be AFTER the tribulation of those days. Sorry, but you can't have "the tribulation of those days" before the day of the Lord even starts! Again, that is preposterous! The "tribulation of those days" STARTS at the midpoint of the week! How can you get to the middle of the week, before the week even starts??????? Look, the answer to unravel this tangle of mis-interpretation is simple: John does not show us the signs that Jesus said would be AFTER the tribulation of those days. If John were shown these signs in the visions, and if John had written about them (which he did not) they would be in chapter 19, just before Jesus gets on the horse! In other words, these similar signs are shown TWICE, once before the 70th week [at the 6th seal], and once AFTER the 70th week [Olivet discourse]. The signs, as written, are not the same event. Plain and simple!

Then, if you read closely, the two mentions of these cosmic signs are different. They cannot be one and the same event. In one, the moon turns to blood, [color] and in the other, the moon reflects no light at all! (Go back and read them again.) Could I guess that you have been reading Rosenthal and Van Kampen?

Another point that you have missed totally is this: When is the GT? Of course, it is the last half of the 70th week, for Daniel tells us that the abomination event splits the week in half. The GT comes right after the abomination. Now, when does John show us that the vials of His wrath are poured out? Wow! If you read, you will see that they are poured out on the antichrist's kingdom, soon after the abomination event! When is Satan cast out of heaven, so that he can join with the antichrist in bringing this GT? Of course, John shows us that he is cast down right at the midpoint. It is the devil through the antichrist that brings this period of great tribulation. So we see that the devil's wrath is poured out from the abomination event onward, over the last 3 1/2 years.

God's anger get's to boiling over this intense persecution, so He pours out His wrath in the antichrist's kingdom, to SHORTEN the time of persecution. Therefore, both Satan's wrath and God's wrath are seen and felt on earth at the same time: the last half of the 70th week.

Hint: start over building your chronology with the book of Revelation. It is the latest revelation, and it is the most complete. For the most part, John gives us the events in the exact order that they will happen, when they start to take place.

Again, if you disagree with a point, bring that out, and let's compare with the word of God.

By the way, which sounds more like the raptured church: a great crowd that cannot be numbered, or two people?

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Then, if you read closely, the two mentions of these cosmic signs are different. They cannot be one and the same event. In one, the moon turns to blood, [color] and in the other, the moon reflects no light at all! (Go back and read them again.) Could I guess that you have been reading Rosenthal and Van Kampen?

Coop! Have you ever considered this IS the same event, described from different perspectives? If you say no, it isn't possible, consider using the Bible itself to see if it's possible.

Luke telling us of the last spoken words of Jesus on the cross

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John, telling us of the same event

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

What's the Spirit telling you about this, Coop?

Now, mostly all scholars and commentators who are into futurims see the seals as having something to do with the seventh week... all of the seals. You create a problem by forcing some of the seals in history AND by claiming the sixth seal kicks off the seventh week and the GT. It can't be both.

I have told you over and over that those who adhere to a future 70th week, see at least part or most of the first half as a time of peace, false peace. You have the 70th. week strating off with a bang! and even worse, you have Satan pouring out his wrath of persecution at the SAME time God is pouring out HIS Wrath! You're a thinking guy, think about that for while. Is Satan any match at all against God? Don't you think for one millisecond that Satan's efforts will be rendered almost useless by the Almighty's Awesome Powers? If you don't then there is something seriously flawed in that train of thought.

Most scholas and commentators agree that there is an overlapping and expounding of some events... you attribute this portion of Revelations as an "Midpoint interlude", when most see it as further explaining events that start at the beginning of the second half, which most will agree, is the fifth seal or sixth seal.

If you put the GT before the 6th seal, then you have to find the antichrist before the 6th seal, and the abomination before the 6th seal. We both know this is preposterous, for John is not even introduced to the antichrist until chapter 13, LONG after the 6th seal. And John shows us that the people that flee the abomination event, are shown in chapter 12, again, long after the 6th seal. Why then, do you believe that the GT must be before the 6th seal? You must have a good reason to go against the chronology of John's book.

Because of what I said above about how you misinterpret some of Rev 11. all of 12, 13, 14 and most of 15, that is just plain wrong.

Sorry, but you can't have "the tribulation of those days" before the day of the Lord even starts!

Oh yes you can because of another misconception; The GT and The Day of the Lord (the Wrath of God) are TWO seperate events. You even acknowledged as much here:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 155#316155

I explained all this in detail right above your post. Don't let your pride stop you from exploring new and Biblical ideas. You laugh at and ridiclue everyone else's views but don't like it much when you are corrected. That's life man.

Where do you think Paul shows us the rapture after the tribulation? I have never seen such a verse.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Zero, if you really believe in a future 70th. week and a rapture, despite what Coop thinks, Van Kampen's book, The Sign, is a great place to start. If anything, it will clear up many misconceptions about and in futurism.

 

[Zero Link]

Vic said:

Zero, if you really believe in a future 70th. week and a rapture, despite what Coop thinks, Van Kampen's book, The Sign, is a great place to start. If anything, it will clear up many misconceptions about and in futurism.

Lol I have never read Van Kampen's book (not that i know of). I only went to the bible and saw this for myself and compared it. It was a perfect match in my opinion.

Lecoop said:

What? Who? You and I? What about the other two or so billion people? The two witnesses have NOTHING to do with the church. Please tell me why you think they are in some way related to the church. They are to be God's witnesses on earth when God unleashes His wrath on a unrepentant world. Remember, when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, He came with two witnesses also. The two witnesses will show up about 3 1/2 years after the church has been raptured, according to John.

Coop you know good and well the bible is filled with symbols. If you are going to pretend that you do not know the two witnesses is more than just two people, then you mine aswell believe Isreal is a actual Fig tree.. Not a nation of its own. These two witnesses (God's people) will be the ones that know anti-christ's dirty work.. They will witnesses all of this stuff they read in the bible happening.. Then they will stand and tell everyone, and let someone try to stop them, they will over power them with the word of God.. And they will give knowledge to others and plenty others until the beast comes and persecute them. They will be many hiding, and many dead, until God comes and tell them rise above their enemies... And they will do so and everyone will see it(either rapture or literally rising above their enemies by taking over once again when Jesus comes)..

Here is another scripture I want to explain:

Still, Two witnesses
Rev 11: 1-2

1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Hmm, now this says the Genitiles(One who is not of the Jewish faith or is of a non-Jewish nation. ) will be the ones here on this earth, preaching and keeping the holy spirit in people as long as we can until the beast come... Because we aren't in the alter at the time God told John to measure it back in Rev 7: 9

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

And if Revelation is in Chronological order, then its still proving my point. Even though you see a great multitude, you still see the two witnesses on earth(God's people who see this happening and knew it was coming).

Lecoop said:

Remember, when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, He came with two witnesses also.

Yes but was Lot ever raptured? No, if you want to use Sodom and Gomorrah as a symbol of the Great Tribulation.. I can do that... Lot was taken out of it so that he might be protected, only if he didn't look back or they will be turned into a pillar of salt... Of course, his wife looked back and sadly was turned into a pillar of salt.. See, Lot was never rapture.. If so then his wife would have been alive with him instead of turned into a pillar of salt.... Who knows, Lot's wife could have been a symbol to those who will go back as God said not to:

Matt 24: 17-18

17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.

Another thing, Noah's ark is the same way aswell.. I've seen some people on this forum use the Noah's ark scriptures as a symbol and compare it to the end of times. Well here is my perspectives:

God told Noah about the flood ahead of time, Just like God told us about the Great tribulation ahead of time... Noah tries to tell people about the flood, some believed him, alot didn't.. Just like we the two witnesses will do or doing now.. When Noah gets on his arch notice how he goes through the flood, he isn't raptured.. Because if you call that a rapture, then why are people dying inside that ark? It wasn't very pleseant in there but they had to stick through it to start all over again when they get out... See, we won't be raptured, but we will be going through the great tribulation.. Some will be protected and others won't be able to stand for it.. But those that will be protected are the ones that listen to God, instead of foolishly trying to face anti-christ.

 

[Vic C.]

Because if you call that a rapture, then why are people dying inside that ark?

I don't recall anyone inside the ark dying. There were told to build the ark and get into it to protect them from perishing in the Flood.

 

[Zero Link]

I don't recall anyone inside the ark dying. There were told to build the ark and get into it to protect them from perishing in the Flood.

Yes I believe people died in there.. Either people or animals.. I may have it mixed up.. I heard about it and i read about it awhile back... Well I think, then again it could be my mind giving in on me at a early age. :P

 

[Vic C.]

Yes I believe people died in there.. Either people or animals.. I may have it mixed up.. I heard about it and i read about it awhile back... Well I think, then again it could be my mind giving in on me at a early age. :P

Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

That's eight people.

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


People do assume animals died in the ark and ask what happened to them. Like I said, they assume. I don't find it in the Flood account.

 

[Zero Link]

Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

That's eight people.

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


People do assume animals died in the ark and ask what happened to them. Like I said, they assume. I don't find it in the Flood account.

waitwait wasn't Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt when she looked back at Solom and Gomorrah?

 

[BenJasher]

waitwait wasn't Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt when she looked back at Solom and Gomorrah?

Yes.

 

[Vic C.]

What Ben said. :-D

Zero, Lot has nothing to do with Noah and the ark. ;-)

 

[lecoop]

Coop said

:
Then, if you read closely, the two mentions of these cosmic signs are different. They cannot be one and the same event. In one, the moon turns to blood, [color] and in the other, the moon reflects no light at all! (Go back and read them again.) Could I guess that you have been reading Rosenthal and Van Kampen?

Coop! Have you ever considered this IS the same event, described from different perspectives? If you say no, it isn't possible, consider using the Bible itself to see if it's possible.

Of course I have considered it, but it just does not fit with Revelation. And I don't care how many perspectives, it is very hard to equate " the moon shall turn to blood" with "shall not give her light." Then, we have the timing issue. It is simple very poor bible exegesis; in fact, it is dream land, to attempt to find the GT before the 6th seal. It simply is not there. John does not even get to the midpoint of the week until the chapter 11. He is not even introduced to the beast until chapter 13. It is clear that in the author's mind, i.e., the Holy Spirit, that the midpoint of the week was not way back in chapter 5! But then, I have been teaching this for years, and it goes right over most people's heads, or in one ear and out the other. No one but me, it seems, can see that Jesus got the scroll into his hand the moment that He arrived in heaven, and that the first seal was opened in 33 AD. Everyone else seem oblivious to the fact that the first four seals cannot be the work of the antichrist, else he would be limited to one fourth of the planet, and because he is not even seen until chapter 13.

VAn Kampen and Rosenthal were brilliant in pointing to the 6th seal as the fulfillment of the Joel 2 and Isaiah 2 prophecies, showing that the Day of the Lord starts with the 7th seal. It was "convergence." However, they failed to notice that the 70th week of Daniel starts at the same time! (Everyone else seems oblivious to this too.) However, when the chronology of John is kept as he wrote it, without any changes; and the book makes perfect sense as it is written and does not contradict any other scriptures, why change it?

Luke telling us of the last spoken words of Jesus on the cross

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John, telling us of the same event

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

What's the Spirit telling you about this, Coop?

Very simple: He said both of these statements. "It is finished;" then, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."

Why then, would it be so hard to visualize these cosmic signs coming at the sixth seal, just before the 70th week, and then again (with different signs) after the 70th week, and just before Jesus returns. After all, this is the chronology given. Why do you think you should change it? You know as well as I that John shows Jesus coming, after the week has finished, in chapter 19, just as Jesus gave the chronology in the Olivet discourse. Jesus said cosmic signs would take place just before He comes. The thing is, John was not show these signs, and did not write about them. We find then, the first cosmic signs written in REvelation, and the second cosmic signs written in Matthew. Again, this should not be a shock, because you just showed us an example of Luke and John giving us two separate parts of what Jesus said. To get the whole story, you have to read it in both places. you just can't equate "into thy hands I commend my spirit" and "it is finished." It should be obvious that Jesus made both of these statements.

Now, mostly all scholars and commentators who are into futurims see the seals as having something to do with the seventh week... all of the seals. You create a problem by forcing some of the seals in history AND by claiming the sixth seal kicks off the seventh week and the GT. It can't be both.

Sorry, they are the ones that had the problem! Please answer: why can't it be both? It is what is written. I am sure we both agree that since Jesus walked the earth, there has never been an earthquake that shook the entire planet, as is described at the sixth seal. You must consider this event as future. Yet we can easily see Stephen as being one of the first martyrs in the 5th seal.

I have told you over and over that those who adhere to a future 70th week, see at least part or most of the first half as a time of peace, false peace. You have the 70th. week strating off with a bang! and even worse, you have Satan pouring out his wrath of persecution at the SAME time God is pouring out HIS Wrath! You're a thinking guy, think about that for while. Is Satan any match at all against God? Don't you think for one millisecond that Satan's efforts will be rendered almost useless by the Almighty's Awesome Powers? If you don't then there is something seriously flawed in that train of thought.

Peace between who? Please find the scripture that backs this idea up? I believe the peace will be between Israel and the enemys that have been trying to destroy them. However, this peace is ONLY between them and Israel. As we read in Daniel, the King of the North does not have peace with others. He is building a reputation, and putting down other countries. It is written that he puts down three. So what is the big problem with Satan's wrath causing this time of great tribulation? I am sure you are in agreement with me here, that it is satan, in the beast, who together, cause this intense persecution. I am sure we both agree that this time will be after the midpoint of the week. I am sure we agree that God will shorted this time. The only problem then, is that you don't believe God shortens this time of tribulation by the vials of His wrath. However, all you have to do is read from chapter 11 on, and you will see it played out, just as I have said. Satan is cast down in chapter 12. Two verses in chapter 12 show the woman fleeing. It makes good sense that she is fleeing the abomination. Why does this give you trouble? what comes next? Of course, in chapter 16 we see the vials being poured out, right after satan is cast down, and right after the abomination. In chapter 13 we read about the persecution. Again, this is in perfect agreement with the Olivet discourse. Again, I cannot see why you have an argument with this. Do you have some other scripture that forces you to change this God given order of events?

Satan versus God? I think you have forgotten that God has magnified His word even above His great name! What has He written? He has written that the beast has authority over the world for 42 months. Do you expect God to go against His word? He would have to cease being God if He did. This is not about who is more powerful! Doesn't it make sense that God's wrath is intensified by what the beast is doing?

Most scholas and commentators agree that there is an overlapping and expounding of some events... you attribute this portion of Revelations as an "Midpoint interlude", when most see it as further explaining events that start at the beginning of the second half, which most will agree, is the fifth seal or sixth seal.

Alas, they can expound, but they fall way short of having any solid scriptural proof. It is only theories to them. They totally overlook little things like why Jesus was not in the throne room, and why "no man was found." If we could ask any of these learned gentlemen, I am convinced that they would not have any idea. If they did, they would have written it. I have never seen one commentary mention that John shows the second, third and fourth horse riding together, but leaving out the first one. Why did they not write about this? Simply because it was not revealed to them.

How many commentaries have you read, where they counted the times the dragon, or pronouns in place of dragon, is used in chapter 12? How many commentaries talk about the visions showing some history to John, before they get into future events, such as happens in chapter 12, where God shows how the dragon was interfering way back when Jesus was born, and in chapter 5? Again, these things were not revealed to them. Therefore, I know what I believe, and I believe just what is written, in the order it is written. Please, if you disagree with John's chronology, and you are right, there MUST be some scripture that would prove something like flashbacks. However, I have not seen any. Last, his book makes perfect sense in the order it is written. If you disagree, please show me where and why.

Coop said
[quote:10612]:
If you put the GT before the 6th seal, then you have to find the antichrist before the 6th seal, and the abomination before the 6th seal. We both know this is preposterous, for John is not even introduced to the antichrist until chapter 13, LONG after the 6th seal. And John shows us that the people that flee the abomination event, are shown in chapter 12, again, long after the 6th seal. Why then, do you believe that the GT must be before the 6th seal? You must have a good reason to go against the chronology of John's book.

Because of what I said above about how you misinterpret some of Rev 11. all of 12, 13, 14 and most of 15, that is just plain wrong. [/quote:10612]

Go one, please explain where I am "just plain wrong."

Coop said
[quote:10612]Sorry, but you can't have "the tribulation of those days" before the day of the Lord even starts!

Oh yes you can because of another misconception; The GT and The Day of the Lord (the Wrath of God) are TWO separate events. You even acknowledged as much here:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 155#316155

I explained all this in detail right above your post. Don't let your pride stop you from exploring new and Biblical ideas. You laugh at and ridiclue everyone else's views but don't like it much when you are corrected. That's life man. [/quote:10612]

Sorry, but you have to correct me with scripture, not some human reasoning! Have you found the abomination in chapter 4 or 5? No? Hmm. That is because John shows us that it happens in chapter 11! : -)))

Sorry, but the GT is INSIDE of the Day of the Lord! It is a short period of time (maybe two or three years) where Satan, working inside and through the beast, tries to kill off everyone that refuses the mark of the beast. Speaking of the mark of the beast, where do we read about the angels warning people not to take the mark. Wouldn't that be in chapter 14? Is not chapter 14, right after chapter 11 and 12 and 13, where the abomination takes place? (John shows us the fleeing, but not the actual event.) Doesn't it make good sense that God would warn people before the fact, rather than long after the mark had been forced on people? Therefore, just as John shows us, we have the Day of the Lord, starting with the 7th seal, as well as Daniel's 70th week. We have the trumpets of God taking place in the first half of the week, and then the midpoint events (in perfect chronological order.) Finally, we have the 7 vials of His wrath, ending in chapter 16. This 7th vial closes the 70th week, but the day of the Lord goes on. Therefore, this time of great tribulation is inside the day of the Lord, and makes up a part of that day. Can they be two separate events, and one be inside the other? Of course. Yes, they are separate events. The day of the Lord will be much longer in duration than the time of intense tribulation, that comes after the abomination.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Coop you know good and well the bible is filled with symbols. If you are going to pretend that you do not know the two witnesses is more than just two people, then you mine aswell believe Isreal is a actual Fig tree.. Not a nation of its own. These two witnesses (God's people) will be the ones that know anti-christ's dirty work.. They will witnesses all of this stuff they read in the bible happening.. Then they will stand and tell everyone, and let someone try to stop them, they will over power them with the word of God.. And they will give knowledge to others and plenty others until the beast comes and persecute them. They will be many hiding, and many dead, until God comes and tell them rise above their enemies... And they will do so and everyone will see it(either rapture or literally rising above their enemies by taking over once again when Jesus comes)..

Sorry, I take God for what He says. This Greek word is "duo," which of course means two. There are many verses that use this same Greek word, and they all mean two. Why then, would you think God meant something else here?

Here is another scripture I want to explain:

Still, Two witnesses
Rev 11: 1-2
Quote:
1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Hmm, now this says the Genitiles(One who is not of the Jewish faith or is of a non-Jewish nation. ) will be the ones here on this earth, preaching and keeping the holy spirit in people as long as we can until the beast come... Because we aren't in the alter at the time God told John to measure it back in Rev 7: 9

Quote:
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


And if Revelation is in Chronological order, then its still proving my point. Even though you see a great multitude, you still see the two witnesses on earth(God's people who see this happening and knew it was coming).

Where do you read anything about preaching in verse 1? Do you think "trample on the Holy City" is a good thing? Did God tell John to measure the temple in Rev. 7:9??? Are you comparing the two witnesses with the great crowd? Sorry, the great crowd was seen in heaven, about 3 1/2 years before John was told to go and measure the temple. Do you think the great crowd came back down? Are you agreeing with me then, that you believe this crowd without number is the raptured church?

Lecoop said:
[quote:a83a7]:
Remember, when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, He came with two witnesses also.

Yes but was Lot ever raptured? No, if you want to use Sodom and Gomorrah as a symbol of the Great Tribulation.. I can do that... Lot was taken out of it so that he might be protected, only if he didn't look back or they will be turned into a pillar of salt... Of course, his wife looked back and sadly was turned into a pillar of salt.. See, Lot was never rapture.. If so then his wife would have been alive with him instead of turned into a pillar of salt.... Who knows, Lot's wife could have been a symbol to those who will go back as God said not to:

Matt 24: 17-18
Quote:
17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.

Another thing, Noah's ark is the same way aswell.. I've seen some people on this forum use the Noah's ark scriptures as a symbol and compare it to the end of times. Well here is my perspectives:

God told Noah about the flood ahead of time, Just like God told us about the Great tribulation ahead of time... Noah tries to tell people about the flood, some believed him, alot didn't.. Just like we the two witnesses will do or doing now.. When Noah gets on his arch notice how he goes through the flood, he isn't raptured.. Because if you call that a rapture, then why are people dying inside that ark? It wasn't very pleseant in there but they had to stick through it to start all over again when they get out... See, we won't be raptured, but we will be going through the great tribulation.. Some will be protected and others won't be able to stand for it.. But those that will be protected are the ones that listen to God, instead of foolishly trying to face anti-christ. [/quote:a83a7]

The ONLY comparison I was making was that God had two witnesses on earth when He decided to destroy Sodom and Gamorrah, and He will have two witnesses on earth when the vials are poured out.

So you believe 'we won't be raptured, but we will be going through the great tribulation." I guess you know that the entire pre-trib camp disagrees with that.

Coop

 

[Zero Link]

What Ben said. :-D

Zero, Lot has nothing to do with Noah and the ark. ;-)

ROFL ROFL!! I got soo confused. I can't believe I made such a mistake. *sighs*

edit: ok Lecoop we'll see... If the rapture doesn't happen, all I can say to you is don't think God has abandon you.. Because you're putting all of your faith in this, and it seems as if you will be going down that road.. Notice how i said seems.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Matthew 24


30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

 

[Zero Link]

Matthew 24


30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

I figured one of you would post that. That proves there will be a rapture, but the timing doesn't match the pre-trib believer's timing... If you would read the entire Mathews 24, you would see that that scripture is all the way at the bottom, after the great tribulation.. And all of what Mathew wrote *which is coming straight from Jesus's mouth" Is in order. Now can you deny that?

 

[lecoop]

I figured one of you would post that. That proves there will be a rapture, but the timing doesn't match the pre-trib believer's timing... If you would read the entire Mathews 24, you would see that that scripture is all the way at the bottom, after the great tribulation.. And all of what Mathew wrote *which is coming straight from Jesus's mouth" Is in order. Now can you deny that?

Of course these verses are shown after "the tribulation of those days," which follow the abomination. I don't believe there is even one pretribber that will disagree with that. Jesus follows a chronological time line, showing one event following another, following another, and certainly, the time that Jesus comes with His angels (and 10,000's of His saints) will be some time "immediately after" the tribulation.

However, all you have shown us is that when Jesus returns, He will send out His angels to "gather together the elect." But you have believed, in error, that this is the rapture of the church! What do the angels do first?

Notice these two verses, one following the other. (remember, we are both in agreement that Jesus gives us events in chronological order.)

"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

Please tell me, does "carcase" sound to you like the rapture of the church?

Why carcases? Jesus goes on to tell us:

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Notice verse 42, ties the previous two verses back into His coming, so there can be no mistake. When He comes, one will be taken, and one will be left. And there will be carcases: dead bodies for the birds to feed on.

Notice how Luke 17 puts this:

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, ...
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Notice that it is the one taken, that causes the carcases, and the eagles to gather. So what is Jesus telling us? This is surely not the gathering together of the elect! So what is it?

Mat. 13
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then angels snatch the spirits right out of the bodies, and the bodies fall dead, food for the birds. We know that this takes place the moment of His coming in the clouds, because Jesus said, " For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, for wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

There is an old testament verse that shows this:

Jeremiah 25
31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth--For the LORD has a controversy with the nations; He will plead His case with all flesh. He will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says the LORD."
32 Thus says the LORD of hosts: "Behold, disaster shall go forth from nation to nation, And a great whirlwind shall be raised up From the farthest parts of the earth.
33 "And at that day the slain of the LORD shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.

Therefore, before the angels go and gather together the elect, they go and take all wicked and evil people off the planet! What then, is this "gathering of the elect?" Is this the rapture? No.

Jeremiah 31
6For there shall be a day when the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim, "arise, and let us go up to Zion, to the LORD our God."'
7For thus says the LORD: "sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations; proclaim, give praise, and say, "O LORD, save Your people, The remnant of Israel!' 8Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the ends of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and the one who labors with child, together; a great throng shall return there.
10"Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him as a shepherd does his flock.'

The angels will bring the Jews back to Israel. Verse seven says that God brings those that are “called by my Name.†Does this mean only those that still have faith in their God? I believe that is what Isaiah is saying. God will bring every Jew that still has faith in his or her God back to Israel. Verse six says that there shall be “a day.†This agrees with Luke that the angels will bring together all the Jews left from the dispersion that have not already returned. The angels will accomplish this in a day.

Therefore, there IS NO RAPTURE of the church in Matthew 24. It is only man's imagination.

Coop

 

[Zero Link]

Once again, your timing is all wrong..

Luke 17:

30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32Remember Lot's wife! 33Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."[d]

If anti-christ is revealed that day, and the people are taken away that night, that is clear proof that the rapture doesn't happen til after the tribulation.. Because you know what happens during that night? God's Wrath, and after God's wrath whatelse? A NEW DAY STARTS(Mellinium).

But wait a second.. I have a question.. I thought Son of Man = Jesus Christ.. Why is Luke 17 phrasing their scripture to seem as if Jesus is going to be the one thats going to cause terror when he is revealed?
=\

 

[lecoop]

Once again, your timing is all wrong..

Luke 17:



If anti-christ is revealed that day, and the people are taken away that night, that is clear proof that the rapture doesn't happen til after the tribulation.. Because you know what happens during that night? God's Wrath, and after God's wrath whatelse? A NEW DAY STARTS(Mellinium).

But wait a second.. I have a question.. I thought Son of Man = Jesus Christ.. Why is Luke 17 phrasing their scripture to seem as if Jesus is going to be the one thats going to cause terror when he is revealed?
=\

Who said anything about the antichrist here? The timing we have been discussing is after the end of the 70th week of Daniel. The antichrist has been brought to a standstill, (his time of persecuting the saints shortened) by the vials and plagues poured out from heaven on his kingdom.

I have wondered about verse 30 that you mentioned.

30 It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.

This is not speaking of fleeing after seeing the abomination, since that would be before "the tribulation of those days," not after, as Jesus said about His coming. I have wondered about this verse.Since we have not been given more information, we can only guess. It sure looks like there will be two times that people should flee. Either that, or Luke was not writing things in order. Or, perhaps for that one sentence, Jesus was referring to the "day of the Lord," when He mentioned "in that day."

No other gospels have this verse of fleeing after the 70th week, on the day of Jesus' return to earth.


You started out with, "Once again, your timing is all wrong.."

Please explain.


You said, "If anti-christ is revealed that day, and the people are taken away that night, that is clear proof that the rapture doesn't happen til after the tribulation.."

Please explain more fully. If you are referring to the day Jesus returns, the antichrist will have performed the abomination about 3 1/2 years before this day. And please explain how this has any thing at all to do with the rapture.


You said, "Because you know what happens during that night? God's Wrath, and after God's wrath whatelse?"

Again, I need an explanation. Are you saying that you believe all 7 of the vials will be poured out in one night? Scripture, please?

You ended with "I thought Son of Man = Jesus Christ.. Why is Luke 17 phrasing their scripture to seem as if Jesus is going to be the one thats going to cause terror when he is revealed?"

It is just the way that Luke wrote it. I have no explaination for it. All I know is that no other gospel shows any fleeing on the day that Jesus comes.

Coop

 

[Zero Link]

Who said anything about the antichrist here? The timing we have been discussing is after the end of the 70th week of Daniel. The antichrist has been brought to a standstill, (his time of persecuting the saints shortened) by the vials and plagues poured out from heaven on his kingdom.

I have wondered about verse 30 that you mentioned.

30 It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.

This is not speaking of fleeing after seeing the abomination, since that would be before "the tribulation of those days," not after, as Jesus said about His coming. I have wondered about this verse.Since we have not been given more information, we can only guess. It sure looks like there will be two times that people should flee. Either that, or Luke was not writing things in order. Or, perhaps for that one sentence, Jesus was referring to the "day of the Lord," when He mentioned "in that day."

No other gospels have this verse of fleeing after the 70th week, on the day of Jesus' return to earth.


You started out with, "Once again, your timing is all wrong.."

Please explain.


You said, "If anti-christ is revealed that day, and the people are taken away that night, that is clear proof that the rapture doesn't happen til after the tribulation.."

Please explain more fully. If you are referring to the day Jesus returns, the antichrist will have performed the abomination about 3 1/2 years before this day. And please explain how this has any thing at all to do with the rapture.


You said, "Because you know what happens during that night? God's Wrath, and after God's wrath whatelse?"

Again, I need an explanation. Are you saying that you believe all 7 of the vials will be poured out in one night? Scripture, please?

You ended with "I thought Son of Man = Jesus Christ.. Why is Luke 17 phrasing their scripture to seem as if Jesus is going to be the one thats going to cause terror when he is revealed?"

It is just the way that Luke wrote it. I have no explaination for it. All I know is that no other gospel shows any fleeing on the day that Jesus comes.

Coop

Coop I really do not like it when you take my quotes literally, knowing exactly what I mean.

You said, "Because you know what happens during that night? God's Wrath, and after God's wrath whatelse?"

Again, I need an explanation. Are you saying that you believe all 7 of the vials will be poured out in one night? Scripture, please?

If that was the case, then the day of the Lord would just be one day... If it symbolizes a period of time, then you should know im doing the same.

I want YOU to explain something to me. I want you to tell me what you think Rev. 11 (Two Witnesses) mean.

Who are the two witnesses.?
What does it mean that the the two witnesses will have the power to shut heaven, to devour their enemy, and etc...?
And what does it mean when the bible says: And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Explain all of that to me.

 

[lecoop]

Coop I really do not like it when you take my quotes literally, knowing exactly what I mean.
...
If that was the case, then the day of the Lord would just be one day... If it symbolizes a period of time, then you should know im doing the same.

I want YOU to explain something to me. I want you to tell me what you think Rev. 11 (Two Witnesses) mean.

Who are the two witnesses.?
What does it mean that the the two witnesses will have the power to shut heaven, to devour their enemy, and etc...?
And what does it mean when the bible says: And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Explain all of that to me.

Sorry, but I did not know what you meant, hense I ask you! How else would I find out? :P I guess we both agree that the day of the Lord will be an extended period of time.

What about the two witnesses? Why not just what John tells us: two people, like Moses and Elijah; meaning that they perform similar miracles. Elijah prayed that the rain would stop - and it did. Elijah called down fire from heaven several times. God provides them special protection for a period of time - then after they have testified for 1260 days, allows them to be killed. I believe that they will show up 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of the week, testify for 1260 days, be killed, then rise up on the same day as the 7th vial. I believe they will show up just before the exact midpoint, because that is when God introduced them to John in the vision. However, many people believe that they will show up for the first 3 1/2 years.

Coop