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Faith alone questions

The Catholic church is not it.

Lots of born again children of God born without the Catholic church prove the Catholic church is not the one and only true church. I don't consider it to be true at all because of its works justification theology.

How do you know?

If you have an interpretation or understanding of scripture then you must be an authority! To believe you is adding to scripture alone!

Would that not violate your doctrine of “the Bible is the only authority”!

“Bible alone” means just that, an unopened book on a table!
To open it would be adding to scripture:
To read it would be adding to scripture:
To interpret it would be adding to scripture:

Just Using an absurdity to illustrate the nature of a false doctrine!

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

Rejection of the church is rejection of Christ who founded the church!
 
Millions of born again, Spirit filled, fruit bearing children of God testify to the fact that there are lots of people outside of the Catholic church who have the keys of the kingdom.
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Light of the world: Jn 8:12 / Matt 5:14
Hear: Matt 17:5 acts 3:22 / Matt 18:17
Authority: Matt 28:17 / Jn 20:21
Reconciliation: 2 cor 5:19 / 2 cor 5:18
Forgive sins: Lk 5:20 / Jn 20:23

Truth: Jn 14:6 / 1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ and His church are one and the only means of salvation!
 
Hello again Wondering, I believe that the RCC would have one or two things to say about that belief of yours 😉
Which belief?
I have so many!

I also agree with most of what the RCC teaches (as I believe all conservative Protestants do). We walk in lockstep with about 90% of their official teachings (but the remaining 10% is what gets more than just a bit "iffy", particularly some of their soteriological teachings, teachings/beliefs that simply cannot be harmonized with ours).
There's another member on here that has a problem with their soteriology.
I really don't know why.
Faith is what saves.
God is the first to move.
Faith and salvation are a gift from Him.
Then works are necessary.

I don't know what's different about what they teach.
They do believe in the sacraments - more than we have -
But they all seem to be biblical to me.

As for the location of the true "original church", was that not found in Jerusalem (where Peter and the rest of the Apostles were .. e.g. Acts 15), not in Rome?

I don't mean a place.
I mean the church that continued after the Apostles had all died.
A church, as an institution, had been established.
That church was the Universal or Catholic Church.
Ignatius of Antioch called it the Catholic Church for the first time in 103AD.

If that's all that the RCC meant by "Apostolic Succession", I suppose that I would believe it too. Rather, apostolic succession has to do with the passing on/handing down of "authority".

Yes. It could be that too.
Someone had to have authority.
Jesus gave the Keys to Peter. The Keys represented authority.
When there was a disagreement among the Bishops of the different regions, Peter was consulted.
I believe he was in Rome at the time, but I won't insist.
Wherever he was, he was a Bishop and he was consulted by the other 4 Bishops of the early church.

Yes, in 1054 AD, the East and the West split over doctrine and other issues (the two that you mentioned being at the heart of the debate, I believe). The question is however, was it the East or the West who remained truer to the teachings of the Bible, the Apostles and the early church :thinking I've looked into this pretty carefully, and it seems to me that it was the West (Rome) who departed (due to the growing number of their heretical teachings), rather than the East.

I think what you mean is instead, which of the two maintained the original teachings more.
I'd have to agree that the Orthodox did.
However, the Orthodox seceded, they broke the succession.
They LEFT....
no matter who was right or wrong.




Finally, while I agree that it's often difficult to disagree with historical "facts", choosing to question, and when necessary, disagree with the teachings/beliefs/traditions of what certain men have come to believe over time (especially as they get farther and farther away, time-wise, from the Source) is something that we must do, yes?

If this is something that we should never do (dispute "historical" beliefs, that is), then why did the Lord Jesus choose to do that very thing with many of the historical/traditional teachings of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes?

Who won the Civil war?
Is it up for debate?
Will the answer change in time?

Just like the RCC, Jews (still) believe that they have an Oral "Tradition" (referred to by them as the "Oral Torah") that they believe was handed down, generation to generation, from God to Moses to the Jews who are alive today. So, while the "Oral Torah" or Jewish "Tradition" is certainly "historical", the Lord, nevertheless, pointed out to us that at least some of what it taught was not true, and/or was heretical (particularly when it disagreed with the teachings of the Written Torah, specifically).

Agreed.
He clarified teachings that were not what God meant....
they were teachings of Moses that needed to be adjusted.
Like divorce...

I'm not talking about this however,
Jesus had the AUTHORITY to change the laws, we don't.

The Lord made it clear to us that "authority" is from Him, and that it is found in the written, God-breathed Scriptures, which are also from Him (not in the beliefs of fallible/fallen men), saying again and again and again in the NT, as I'm sure that you recall, "It is written", when He began to teach the people.

On the other hand, the Lord Jesus also said things like this, "you have heard that it was said" concerning many of the Jewish "Traditional" teachings, and then He went on to explain why the Jewish (historical) "Tradition" that He was referring to was wrong.

This is becoming a very long post. Sorry about that.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I 🥰LOVE🥰 Italy BTW 😊
Oh sure. Agreed.
But He was the last revelation.
The problem with the CC is that they added too many of their own teachings to the bible.
The bible MUST be the authority.
They say their beliefs are biblical,,,but I find they go beyond what the bible taught and even what the ECFs taught.
For instance, some ECFs wrote about Mary...but they did not all agree on what was written.
I trust what the ECFs believed but they all had to agree.
And, of course, it began to change after the Nicene Council.

Agreed about Italy!
So many nice places to visit and also to live.
I'm in the Northern part of Tuscany.
I like it better here than in the South, where most tourists go.
It's mountainy up here - looks like Switzerland in some places.
❣️
 
My understanding is the Freewill Baptists most closely resemble the original church.
Yeah. You're confusing the more closely related to the beginning church's beliefs,
to WHICH church was the FIRST church.

I don't know enough about the freewill Baptists to make any comment.
What about the Nazarene Church or the A of G church?

What do the Freewill Baptists believe that you think they're the most similar to the early church?
 
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Light of the world: Jn 8:12 / Matt 5:14
Hear: Matt 17:5 acts 3:22 / Matt 18:17
Authority: Matt 28:17 / Jn 20:21
Reconciliation: 2 cor 5:19 / 2 cor 5:18
Forgive sins: Lk 5:20 / Jn 20:23

Truth: Jn 14:6 / 1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ and His church are one and the only means of salvation!
Are you still saying that anyone outside of the CC is lost?

How many times have I posted from the CCC regarding this?

Why do you keep repeating incorrect teachings of the CC that only serve to confuse Protestants more than they already are?

You really must stop this.

Besides the fact that it's against TOS rules to judge the soul of another person and denominations are full of persons.

Please take this as a friendly warning and FAMILIARIZE yourself with the Terms of Service to which you agreed when registering with CF.net

Thanks.

And read Romans 1:19-21 and tell me what you think it means.
And also familiarize yourself with the CCC if you're going to state Catholic doctrine...
or
please post of what denomination you are.
 
The Bible speaks of the office of apostle, not a lineage of apostles.

Is that gift and calling still active today? I don't know. As you know, most Protestants operate under the Pastor/Elder model of church leadership, alone, in one form or another. And it works.
I know it must be me.
The above is not what I'm speaking of at all.
I've said a couple of times now that there are no longer any Apostles.
They're all dead.

There is no lineage.

However there is a succession of those that were taught by Jesus and then those that were taught by them, and so on until today.

All denominations that were "invented" in the 1,500's do not take part if that succession.
They departed from it.
Martin Luther departed from it.
He began a new LINE OF denominations that were not around at the beginning.

I don't know how to explain this better...I'm no scholar, that's for sure.
 
Hi Don ,
Trying to catch up and I can't remember if I answered to the above.
I agree with all of it.

But you said that Redemption and Justification are the same...
this is the part I do not agree with.

They are two totally different teachings, which is clearly seen from your post above.
Redemption makes justification possible
 
What other grace is there?
God's grace comes in many different expressions.

There is the grace of God's presence.
The grace of God's provision.
The grace of God's healing.
etc.

What we are discussing is the fact that God's grace in justification comes solely by believing God's promise of his Son, not by doing righteous deeds and rituals. No one is made righteous by being righteous. You can only become righteous by receiving God's grace in justification by faith in the promise, apart from works. That's how Abraham became righteous, and that is how we, also, become righteous (Romans 4:23-24).
 
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Agreed on the above, but I have one question which you've never answered.

You say that to be born again - saved - we must have faith and baptism.

I agree actually. Jesus said we must be baptized.

But here's my question:
What if I become a believer, place my faith in God, and about a few weeks later I die and was never baptized.

What happens to my soul/spirit?
Am I lost?
If it ain’t possible it ain’t required
But if it becomes possible and is refused that’s another matter
Thanks
 
Matt 24:13 he who endures to the end shall be saved.
...but not justified by enduring/suffering.
That's what you're not getting.

You don't know the difference between justification and salvation.
Justification results in becoming a saved person, now, not becoming a justified, saved child of God sometime in the future upon a lifetime of the satisfactory completion of various rituals and deeds as the Catholic church teaches. That is the works justification gospel condemned in scripture.
 
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You are confusing redemption with salvation
Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23


Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

At the hour of death separation from the grace of God by apostasy / rejection of Christ or failing to repent of serious sin a man is lost in damnation! Or

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Glorification:

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
I am confusing redemption from salvation? Did you redefine the meaning of the use of that word? The forgiveness of sins is received by faith in Christ.
re·demp·tion
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...2ahUKEwjN5obK18X_AhX7k2oFHcvaD-YQ3eEDegQIGBAI
noun

  1. 1.
    the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil.
 
The parents have faith and pledge to raise the child in the faith and the fear of the lord, educate as they grow up, then they are confirmed in the faith another sacrament or make a profession of faith
And God parents also in case something happens to the parents
And the little one fo believe

Matt 18:6
Thanks
Well now you have 2 steps. But I see much more importance in the 2nd step then the baptism.
 
There's a lot of things that God commands that we must do. But the issue is NONE of those things MAKES you righteous. The Catholic church says a person is justified by, both, faith and works. But it is faith, all by itself, that makes a person righteous. Their belief about what makes a person righteous is what makes the Catholic church a works justification religion.

Paul takes us all the way back to the example of Abraham and how he was justified by faith all by itself apart from works - before the law, before the new covenant, long before the Catholic church - to show us how we, too, become righteous when we believe God's promise of a Son, apart from the doing of righteous deeds and rituals. The Catholic church completely ignores this truth. They changed Christianity it into a 'faith and works' justification religion.
Agreed.
Abraham was contacted by God.
Abraham had faith in God.
Abraham obeyed what God told him to do.

The justification was when Abraham had faith.
 
Jesus Christ and His church are one and the only means of salvation!

Are you still saying that anyone outside of the CC is lost?

How many times have I posted from the CCC regarding this?

Why do you keep repeating incorrect teachings of the CC that only serve to confuse Protestants more than they already are?

You really must stop this.
I agree with Don. The RCC teaches that salvation is via Christ and the RCC church.

Re: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/o...ally-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church
“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” (CCC here quotes The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, “Lumen Gentium,” 14, from the documents of Vatican II).
... the URL goes on to say that this does not apply to those who, "through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church". They can be saved another way.

I have no problem with people stating the doctrine of their church. I prefer the doctrines that don't say I'm on the way to hell (giggle); but that's just narcissistic me (lol).

Narrow is the way and few that find it.
 
Jesus named 7 in that day in Revelation. I don't know how many He would name today but He knows, and I know Him.
The eastern orthodox church specifically states they are not under the authority of a Catholic Pope. In fact they still state the Spirit proceeds from the Father.
No that’s just a figure of speech
Read each one and you will find it is to the church (singular) at a certain locality
Thanks
 
Hello again Wondering, I believe that the RCC would have one or two things to say about that belief of yours 😉


I also agree with most of what the RCC teaches (as I believe all conservative Protestants do). We walk in lockstep with about 90% of their official teachings (but the remaining 10% is what gets more than just a bit "iffy", particularly some of their soteriological teachings, teachings/beliefs that simply cannot be harmonized with ours).

As for the location of the true "original church", was that not found in Jerusalem (where Peter and the rest of the Apostles were .. e.g. Acts 15), not in Rome?


If that's all that the RCC meant by "Apostolic Succession", I suppose that I would believe it too. Rather, apostolic succession has to do with the passing on/handing down of "authority".



Yes, in 1054 AD, the East and the West split over doctrine and other issues (the two that you mentioned being at the heart of the debate, I believe). The question is however, was it the East or the West who remained truer to the teachings of the Bible, the Apostles and the early church :thinking I've looked into this pretty carefully, and it seems to me that it was the West (Rome) who departed (due to the growing number of their heretical teachings), rather than the East.

Finally, while I agree that it's often difficult to disagree with historical "facts", choosing to question, and when necessary, disagree with the teachings/beliefs/traditions of what certain men have come to believe over time (especially as they get farther and farther away, time-wise, from the Source) is something that we must do, yes?

If this is something that we should never do (dispute "historical" beliefs, that is), then why did the Lord Jesus choose to do that very thing with many of the historical/traditional teachings of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes?

Just like the RCC, Jews (still) believe that they have an Oral "Tradition" (referred to by them as the "Oral Torah") that they believe was handed down, generation to generation, from God to Moses to the Jews who are alive today. So, while the "Oral Torah" or Jewish "Tradition" is certainly "historical", the Lord, nevertheless, pointed out to us that at least some of what it taught was not true, and/or was heretical (particularly when it disagreed with the teachings of the Written Torah, specifically).

The Lord made it clear to us that "authority" is from Him, and that it is found in the written, God-breathed Scriptures, which are also from Him (not in the beliefs of fallible/fallen men), saying again and again and again in the NT, as I'm sure that you recall, "It is written", when He began to teach the people.

On the other hand, the Lord Jesus also said things like this, "you have heard that it was said" concerning many of the Jewish "Traditional" teachings, and then He went on to explain why the Jewish (historical) "Tradition" that He was referring to was wrong.

This is becoming a very long post. Sorry about that.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I 🥰LOVE🥰 Italy BTW 😊

Please stop calling the Catholic Church the RCC.
See - LINK if you don't understand the difference.
 
I agree with Don. The RCC teaches that salvation is via Christ and the RCC church.

Re: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/o...ally-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church
“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” (CCC here quotes The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, “Lumen Gentium,” 14, from the documents of Vatican II).
... the URL goes on to say that this does not apply to those who, "through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church". They can be saved another way.

I have no problem with people stating the doctrine of their church. I prefer the doctrines that don't say I'm on the way to hell (giggle); but that's just narcissistic me (lol).

Narrow is the way and few that find it.
Please stop calling the Catholic Church the RCC.
See - LINK if you do not understand the difference
 
I agree with Don. The RCC teaches that salvation is via Christ and the RCC church.

Re: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/o...ally-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church
“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” (CCC here quotes The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, “Lumen Gentium,” 14, from the documents of Vatican II).
... the URL goes on to say that this does not apply to those who, "through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church". They can be saved another way.

I have no problem with people stating the doctrine of their church. I prefer the doctrines that don't say I'm on the way to hell (giggle); but that's just narcissistic me (lol).

Narrow is the way and few that find it.
So now you agree that a person can be saved another way?
Because the CC says so?
It also says all your beliefs are wrong.

So, are you now saying that anyone outside of the CC, including YOU, are eternally lost?

You have an odd obsession with persons going to hell.
 
Please stop calling the Catholic Church the RCC.
See - LINK if you do not understand the difference
I gave it up years ago Mungo.
It's a waste of time repeating this instruction.

I think it has to do with not understanding the Mass.

So do you agree with donadams that everyone outside of the CC is eternally lost?

FF is quoting Lumen Gentium.
Perhaps, if he agrees with part of it, he should agree with ALL of Catholic teachings and quit being a Reformed Protestant??

Yeah.
 
Please stop calling the Catholic Church the RCC.
See - LINK if you don't understand the difference.
Oh.
I looked at Freddy's link.

It's an article by Tim Staples.
I love to listen to him give a talk.

But the way he explains things requires reading and thought,,,,something not everyone does.
 
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