Mungo
Member
No I don't agree with that. It depends on why they are outside the Catholic Church and their relationship with God.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Faith alone questions
- Thread starter donadams
- Start date
I
if it’s not possible it’s not required
But if it is possible and is rejected then they are lost
Thanks
Effects of faith & baptism!
Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
Verses that oppose grace as received by “faith alone”:
James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jn 1:16-17 by Jesus Christ not “faith alone”!
Lk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Verses that oppose righteousness is “eternal life”:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Verses that oppose “faith and works”:
2 cor 12-9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Verses implying that grace requires works to be fruitful:
Jn 15:1-5
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
1 cor 15:10
Titus 2:11-14
Lk 8 parable of the sower:
All had faith; are all saved?
Do all bear fruit?
Do all win? 1 cor 9:24
Grace is sufficient for thee.
2 cor 12:9
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Not faith alone! James 2:24
Not works alone!
Not works of the law!
Faith and good works!
Faith working thru love!
Good works:
Prayer, alms, fasting, suffering, sacraments, practice of virture!
In union with Christ empowered by His divine grace!
I can't do something I consider untrue. Just like I can't call a man that transitioned into a woman, a woman.
Wikipedia: "Catholic Church - Wikipedia"
The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church
Like, I want everyone to call me "your lordship" ... but I understand it if they do not do so.
Last edited:
You misread my post. I didn't say I believe what followed in my post, I said:
I said "The RCC teaches" and then proceeded to quote from an RCC website.
Again, you misread my quote. I said I agreed with donadams when he said the RCC teaches the one is saved by Christ and the RCC church.
*giggle* .... well, there's only two options. LOL
I didn't agree with the RCC position. The whole point of my post was to support Don in his right to say that if someone doesn't follow the RCC doctrine of salvation by Christ and the RCC then they are going to hell.
Gee, I know you would feel free to post the if you don't believe in Christ you are going to hell.
Now, I know the ToS say I can't post saying for example: "Joe, you're going to hell". But I can post that if anyone doesn't believe in Christ they are going to hell. Now, if Joe doesn't believe in Christ then he is free to put 2 and 2 together. *giggle* (poor Joe)
Disclaimer: If there is anyone on here named "Joe", I wasn't speaking of you. I don't see an Joe on here, so I should be O.K.
That's interesting. I've heard lots of you guys say the protestants are going to hell (assuming the protestants believe what they believe.). Gee, first Catholic site I can across said you have to be water baptized and believe in Christ to be saved. I've could have sworn there were 'infallible' edicts by you guys saying if we don't do this or that (like protestants) then it's an anathema leading to hell (going by memory).
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
Hmmm ... I read some of your stuff Mungo and you seem knowledgeable .... seems your catechism and you are in disagreement. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
means he is going to call me "your lordship" .... *giggle*
Mungo
Member
I gave you a polite request.
Now I give you a warning. If you want to continue posting here call the Catholic Church by it's proper name not RCC or Roman Catholic Church.
RCC Catechism
2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.
2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism.
2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.
2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism.
2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
Mungo
Member
The important sentence there is Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
Like I said "It depends on why they are outside the Catholic Church and their relationship with God".
Moreover the Catholic Church recognises that there are some circumstances where baptism is not possible.
From CCC 1257 "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."
An example of such an exception:
CC 1259 "For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receiveit, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them thesalvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament."
Also CCC1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of thePaschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Mungo
Member
No such thing as RCC Catechism.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Ok. I know what you mean here.
But let's be honest...
Paul IS speaking about the works of the law.
By works of the law no man will be justified.
Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
I'm just going to start a thread on this....
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Ok.
You could have mentioned Baptism by Desire.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Of course.
This is exactly what the CCC teaches.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
How do you know that what Donadams posts is what the CC teaches?
donadams can believe whatever he wants to believe and post it.
BUT
he cannot claim to be representing the CC and post INCORRECT teachings of that church.
OK. But this is not what we're discussing.
Sometimes you're too funny.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Forget about the new thread Jethro.
It would be exactly the same as this one.
So, here we go.
First of all, you're going to have to begin posting links that state that the CC teaches what you BELIEVE it teaches.
Second, I think part of the problem is understanding what FAITH ALONE means.
In Catholic thinking, FAITH ALONE means that we live our life believing that FAITH ALONE WITH NOTHING ELSE will save us.
I guess this would be like believing in OSAS...no matter what, you're saved in the end.
NO ONE in the NT taught this, not Jesus who spoke of works all the time and stated that we will be judged by our good deeds,
John 5:28-29
28Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son,
29and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.
Not Paul who taught that we must do good works:
Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Galatians 6:9
9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.
Not James:
James 4:17
17So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
James 2:14
14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
And John:
Revelation 20:12
12And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
All the writers of the NT believed that works were a necessary component of salvation.
I don't. In a similar way I don't know if you or Mungo know what the CC teaches. I assume you three have some expertise as you all seem to have knowledge on the subject.
Aside: Holy smokes, donadams posts go on forever ... lol ... you should send him a bill for disk space. My feeble mind is only good for up to 100 words and then I nod off.
Technically, claims don't have to be true to be made. We all 'goof' it up to some degree.
You don't think he represent the CC well? He can sure rattle off the verses and text.
Re: Disclaimer: If there is anyone on here named "Joe", I wasn't speaking of you. I don't see an Joe on here, so I should be O.K.
Need some humor to lighten things up on forums.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
donadams has been told this many times. It's not against any rule,
but it's against the falling asleep rule.
This rule states that if a post is too long, the reader will fall asleep.
A bill for disk space is a good idea.
We had a blackout due to this a couple days ago.
I think anything should be able to be explained in 25 words or less if a person understands what they're writing about.
Unless of course, one is being paid to write a book.
As to knowing who knows anything about what:
When I write about Reformed theology, I tend to post links FROM THAT SOURCE.
If it's debated, I'm willing to have a go at it.
I've posted links from the CCC many times (it's like your confessions).
This is the OFFICIAL teaching of the CC.
And as to order:
Mungo is the expert here.
I'm not Catholic, but I know the doctrine (long story).
I don't know what Donadams is....
I know he writes some stuff that doesn't make sense at times.
And he won't debate it.
I try not to "goof". How would anyone ever pay attention to me again?
I'm very careful with what I write - which I know you don't agree with.
But I could only go by what Calvinists SAY and WRITE, and I don't mean other posters.
I mean the theologians of your faith. Incl John Calvin and the Confessions.
Yes. I know he does not PROPERLY represent the CC and causes much confusion.
Agreed.
I used to be better at it...