Faith alone questions

[GodsGrace]

I can't do something I consider untrue. Just like I can't call a man that transitioned into a woman, a woman.

Wikipedia: "Catholic Church - Wikipedia"
The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church

Like, I want everyone to call me "your lordship" ... but I understand it if they do not do so.

But Mungo is right.
Many call it the RCC, so it is ALSO KNOWN AS the RCC. AKA, IOW.

But this is wrong.
Roman is a rite....
The Catholic Church is the denomination, in your lingo.

It's called THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

I went on a rampage about this about 7 or 8 years go.
I gave up and leave it alone now.

So even if you want to keep saying the RCC, go ahead,
but you're an intelligent guy and at least you should know that it's not correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can't do something I consider untrue. Just like I can't call a man that transitioned into a woman, a woman.

Wikipedia: "Catholic Church - Wikipedia"
The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church

Like, I want everyone to call me "your lordship" ... but I understand it if they do not do so.

What are the three main rites?


There are three major groupings of Rites based on the initial transmission of the faith, the Roman, the Antiochian (Syria) and the Alexandrian (Egypt). Later, the Byzantine, was derived as a major Rite from the Antiochian under the influence of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom.


There's much more on this here:

The Rites of the Catholic Church

It may surprise most people to know that there are many different rites within the Catholic Church. Before discussing these rites it is important to note that different sources disagree on exactly what constitutes a rite and exactly how many there are.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

 

[donadams]

Are you still saying that anyone outside of the CC is lost?

How many times have I posted from the CCC regarding this?

Why do you keep repeating incorrect teachings of the CC that only serve to confuse Protestants more than they already are?

You really must stop this.

Besides the fact that it's against TOS rules to judge the soul of another person and denominations are full of persons.

Please take this as a friendly warning and FAMILIARIZE yourself with the Terms of Service to which you agreed when registering with CF.net

Thanks.

And read Romans 1:19-21 and tell me what you think it means.
And also familiarize yourself with the CCC if you're going to state Catholic doctrine...
or
please post of what denomination you are.

No we were talking about the keys of jurisdictional authority

God gives all men sufficient light and grace for salvation

Thanks

 

[Fastfredy0]

but it's against the falling asleep rule.
This rule states that if a post is too long, the reader will fall asleep.

LOL ... and all God's people said "Amen". He's on another forum I joined and goes on forever there too.
I don't fall asleep ... I just skip them ... I tell myself to try to keep it short too.

I've posted links from the CCC many times (it's like your confessions).
This is the OFFICIAL teaching of the CC.

I give you CC props for organizing doctrine. Protestants don't do it...perhaps because they're all over the place except the Reformed guys.

I know he writes some stuff that doesn't make sense at times.

Agreed ... he'll list 30 verses and few seem relevant to me ...again, I stopped reading.

Many call it the RCC, so it is ALSO KNOWN AS the RCC. AKA, IOW.

But this is wrong.
Roman is a rite....
The Catholic Church is the denomination, in your lingo.

I was told Catholic is all Christians and therefore use RCC to distinguish. Granted, the CC has corned the market on the term.

I'm not Catholic, but I know the doctrine (long story).

Interesting...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In Catholic thinking, FAITH ALONE means that we live our life believing that FAITH ALONE WITH NOTHING ELSE will save us.

Yes, I know that's what it means to a Catholic.

What it means to the Protestant is a person receives the righteousness that is from God and not of themselves solely on the basis of their faith in God's promise of his Son. By virtue of being justified the justified person is a saved person, now, not later. They will be saved from the wrath of God at the final judgement when that happens, so that aspect of salvation is yet to come. But that in no way negates the fact that the justified person is a saved person, now, not later after the satisfactory performance of a lifetime of rituals and good deeds. He will remain saved and ensured of his safe passage through the coming judgement as long as he keeps believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I guess this would be like believing in OSAS...no matter what, you're saved in the end.

No, that is not true. I mean, at least not in the original OSAS teaching, the Calvinist's model of OSAS. In that model the person who does not live a life commensurate with the faith he claims to have will not be saved when Jesus comes back because they are showing by their life of disobedience that they don't really have the faith they claim to have. So, it is not a 'no matter what' kind of thing. Genuine faith is signified by the work it performs, or else it isn't genuine faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

NO ONE in the NT taught this, not Jesus who spoke of works all the time and stated that we will be judged by our good deeds

Yes, good deeds will be used by Jesus at the final judgment as evidence of your salvation. The person who can show by the life they lived that they have faith and have the righteousness that comes by faith will be saved through the wrath of the final judgment and will enter into the eternal kingdom. In no way will a person become a justified/saved person at the final judgment upon satisfactory inspection of their life as donadams says Catholic theology teaches. The children of God are saved the moment they believe, in this life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All the writers of the NT believed that works were a necessary component of salvation.

And so do Protestants. With the exception of this aberrant new OSAS theology working through the church today. It claims that since justification is not by works then you can not become unjustified by works, ignoring the fact that John says the person who does not live the changed and changing righteous life of faith that they aren't even born again to begin with. So, the disobedient person is not now saved despite their ungodly life. They are disobedient because they are not now saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't see an @Joe on here, so I should be O.K.

Joe hasn't been seen since January 5th, 2012, so you're probably okay.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I hope Jethro Bodine thumbs up means he is going to call me "your lordship" .... *giggle*

Yes, your Lordship.

 

[Scripture Says]

And these scriptures

Matt 24:13 he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

1. Romans 11:22 – God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness

2. Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"

3. The race of faith: the example of Paul

4. Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"

5. Hebrews 4:1-3, 9-12: "strive to enter the rest of God"

6.Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell away

7. Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".

8. Matthew 24:13: He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved

9. Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end

10. Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved"

11. 1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"

12. 2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ

13. 2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"

14. Philippians 2:12-16: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

15. 1 Timothy 6:10-16: the love of money

16. Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"

17. 2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"

18. James 5:19-20: the wandered brother

19. Some will abandon the faith

20. 1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"

22. The real family of Jesus: "Those who hear the Word of God and do it"

23. 1 Corinthians 5:5: "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord"

24. Peter 2: "It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness"

25. Jude: "Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" - a much relevant warning

26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway

27. Heb 1:14 shall be heirs of salvation

See all these scriptures work together with ALL the scriptures used by the osas believers.....and they teach eternal security is not true.... those scriptures they think they have they dont because they MUST be ALL used (seemingly for and against) to get the truth....

 

[GodsGrace]

Joe hasn't been seen since January 5th, 2012, so you're probably okay.

Oh.
I thought it was 1969.

 

[donadams]

Are you still saying that anyone outside of the CC is lost?

How many times have I posted from the CCC regarding this?

Why do you keep repeating incorrect teachings of the CC that only serve to confuse Protestants more than they already are?

You really must stop this.

Besides the fact that it's against TOS rules to judge the soul of another person and denominations are full of persons.

Please take this as a friendly warning and FAMILIARIZE yourself with the Terms of Service to which you agreed when registering with CF.net

Thanks.

And read Romans 1:19-21 and tell me what you think it means.
And also familiarize yourself with the CCC if you're going to state Catholic doctrine...
or
please post of what denomination you are.

What’s it mean: outside the church there is no salvation!

Matthew 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Jn 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


Heretics: (formally deny
the revelation of Jesus Christ)
Schismatics: (formally deny the church of Jesus Christ or abandoned the church)
Apostates: (reject Jesus Christ)


Self-identified bible Christians?
These no matter what they choose to call themselves do not qualify for any of the above.

God's grace comes in many different expressions.

There is the grace of God's presence.
The grace of God's provision.
The grace of God's healing.
etc.

What we are discussing is the fact that God's grace in justification comes solely by believing God's promise of his Son, not by doing righteous deeds and rituals. No one is made righteous by being righteous. You can only become righteous by receiving God's grace in justification by faith in the promise, apart from works. That's how Abraham became righteous, and that is how we, also, become righteous (Romans 4:23-24).

Grace thru faith alone?

Verses that oppose grace as received by “faith alone”:

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Jn 1:16-17 by Jesus Christ not “faith alone”!

Lk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Thanks

 

[donadams]

...but not justified by enduring/suffering.
That's what you're not getting.

You don't know the difference between justification and salvation.
Justification results in becoming a saved person, now, not becoming a justified, saved child of God sometime in the future upon a lifetime of the satisfactory completion of various rituals and deeds as the Catholic church teaches. That is the works justification gospel condemned in scripture.

Confused

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Grace thru faith alone?

Justification is received as a free gift of God's favor when you believe in his promise of his Son. If you have to work to get God's favor in justification then it is no longer by grace but by works. That's why the Catholic religion is a works justification religion. It is deceitfully disguised as a grace justification religion by saying God gives you the grace to then do the works by which you are made righteous.

 

[donadams]

Well now you have 2 steps. But I see much more importance in the 2nd step then the baptism.

Grace is conferred by the sacrament of baptism

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Confused

Catholic theology says you are justified after a lifetime of satisfactorily performing rituals and deeds.

Non- Catholic theology says you are justified one time for all time and don't need to be re-justified the moment you believe in God's promise of his Son. For that is how Abraham, our example of what makes a person righteous in God's sight, was justified.

Catholic theology says you have to add works to the faith of Abraham to become righteous, though Abraham did no such thing to receive the righteousness that comes from God as a free gift. That's what makes Catholicism a works justification religion.

 

[Randy]

Grace is conferred by the sacrament of baptism

I don't remember mine. I do know I didn't receive the Spirit at that time. I also don't limit a God who can't be bound on how and when "He" chooses to dispense grace. We can read He opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble and the Spirit to those who obey Him.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Grace is conferred by the sacrament of baptism

Abraham, our example, did not receive God's grace in justification through baptism. He received it solely because he believed God's promise about his Son. That's what the Bible says. Catholicism is a works justification religion

 

[GodsGrace]

No we were talking about the keys of jurisdictional authority

God gives all men sufficient light and grace for salvation

Thanks

The keys....

Jesus gave the keys to Peter.
Peter was one of the Apostles....
This goes to Apostolic Succession, which most Protestants reject.

But Jesus did not give those keys to anyone else...