Jethro Bodine
Member
I'm not Reformist, so this means nothing to me.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Faith alone questions
- Thread starter donadams
- Start date
Jethro Bodine
Member
In context "works of the law" means being righteous in deed in order to be righteous:
And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness. Deuteronomy 6:25
That is the works justification gospel condemned in scripture. Catholics say they are different than that in that God gives them the grace by faith to then do the rituals and deeds that is their righteousness. That's just an erroneous and deceitful way to add grace and faith to works justification to make it look like it's a Biblically approved theology of justification.
Ark of the new covenant!
The dwelling place of God!
God dwelt in Mary’s womb for 9 months, remember the ark was incorruptible wood covered with pure gold signifying Mary’s immaculate purity!
read exodus or any place in the Old Testament where something came into contact with God or was consecrated to the service of God it had to be pure and Holy!
And cannot be used for any common purpose!
In the ark was the word of God!
In Mary the new ark is the living Word!
In the ark was the mana!
In Mary was the bread come down from heaven! Jn 6
Bethlehem means house of bread!
Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, (Isa 7:14) and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Temple of God
(Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)
Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
Mary and her virginity are Consecrated to God in immaculate purity, the pure gold of divine love!
Mary was the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone!
Ex 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
2 Sam 6:2 And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims.
Lk 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
2 Sam 6:3 And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart.
4 And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark.
5 And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.
2 Sam 6:16 And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord;
Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
2 Sam 6:9 And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and said, How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?
Lk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
2 Sam 6:11 And the ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.
Lk 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.
2 Sam 6:12 And it was told king David, saying, The Lord hath blessed the house of Obededom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.
Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Lk 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied…
King David took the ark of the covenant up to the earthly Jerusalem! 2 Sam 6:10
King Jesus takes the ark of the new covenant up to the heavenly Jerusalem! Rev 12:1
Gen 1 & 2
Jn 1 & 2
Lk 1 & 2
Lk 1:39
2 Sam 6:2
Lk 1:42
2 Sam 6:9
Lk 1:44
2 Sam 6
Lk 1:45
Blessing
David blessing 2 Sam 6
Lk 1:46
David’s song of thanksgiving
Psalm 132
3 months
Ark is a type of Mary
1 kings 2 15-18
Lk 1:32-33
19 throne for his queen mother
Jesus proclaims the kingdom
John 1 & 2
New Adam and Eve!
New creation!
Lk 1 & 2
New Moses and Ark!
Matt 1 & 2
New Son of David and queen mother!
Nehemiah 2:6
And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,)
Jeremiah 13:18
Say unto the king and to the queen,
Jethro Bodine
Member
"God, have mercy on me a sinner!" Luke 18:13
No ceremonies, no rituals, no good works, and certainly no Catholic church necessary in order to receive that mercy.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I find this undue and false exaltation of Mary to be repulsive!
Worship God and God alone!
Mary is no different than you or I.
Jethro Bodine
Member
For justification, yes, it is unnecessary.
Living the life of Christ is the result of having been justified by faith in Christ, not the way you get justified in Christ.
This is why we have nothing to do with the Catholic church.
Catholicism, by it's own admission, is a works justification religion. It says God gives you the faith to work the works by which you become righteous. I want every Protestant to fully understand this!
If that's what you want, fine. but I want everyone to know the truth about it.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Are you calling dying on the cross and entering the true tabernacle in heaven with his own blood him exercising his High Priesthood in rituals? Really?
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Jesus is the ark in the inner chamber of the temple where the blood is applied and where God comes down to meet man in mercy.
Trust me, no one is carrying Mary around in the inner chamber of the earthly tabernacle and tent of their flesh. That place is reserved for Jesus, and Jesus alone. Only Jesus resides there, by the Holy Spirit.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
You have a great link regarding the Council of Trent.
Why is it so misunderstood?
Did you read the paragraphs just before your list of canons, or a pargraph just after it?
Here it is.....your very own link has this although I use a different link.
Chapter VIII
In what Manner it must be understood that the Impious is Justified by Faith, and freelyBut whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith, and freely,
those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we be therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all justification; without which it is impossible to please God,
and to come unto the fellowship of His sons; but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because none of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, then is it no more by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle saith, grace is no more grace.
and here is the paragraph AFTER your list of canons:
Chapter XI
On the Keeping of the Commandments, and on the Necessity and Possibility thereof.But no one, how much soever justified, ought to think himself free from the observance of the commandments; no one ought to make use of that rash saying, prohibited by the fathers under an anathema; that the commandments of God are impossible for one that is justified to observe. For God commands not impossibilities, but, by commanding, admonishes thee both to do what thou art able, and to pray for what thou art not able,
and aids thee that thou mayest be able; whose commandments are not grievous;
whose yoke is sweet and whose burden light.
For whosoever are the sons of God, love Christ; but they who love him, as Himself doth testify, keep his commandments;
which, assuredly, with the divine assistance, they can do. For, although in this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial; yet they do not therefore cease to be just. For that cry of the just, Forgive us our trespasses,
is both humble and true; whence it happens, the just themselves ought to feel themselves the more obliged to walk in the way of Justice, in that, being already freed from sins, but made servants unto God,
they are able, living soberly, righteously, and godly,
to proceed onwards through Jesus Christ, by whom they have had access unto that grace.
For God deserts not those who have been once justified by His grace, unless he be first deserted by them. Wherefore, no one ought to flatter himself upon faith alone, deeming that by faith alone he is made an heir, and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ, that so he may be also glorified together [with him].
For even Christ Himself, as the Apostle saith, though he was the son of God, learned obedience by the things which he suffered, and being made perfect,
he became the cause of eternal salvation unto all who obey him.
iFor which reason the same Apostle admonishes the justified, saying: Know ye not that they which run in the race, run all indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly: so fight I, not as one that beateth the air; but I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection; lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a cast-away.
So also the prince of the apostles, Peter: The rather give diligence, that by good works ye may make sure your calling and election. For if ye do these things, you shall not sin at any time.
Whence it is certain, that those who are opposed to the orthodox doctrine of religion,
who say that the just man sins, venially at least, in every good work: or, which is still more insupportable, that he merits eternal punishments; as also those who state,
that the just sin in all their works, if in those [works] they, in order to stimulate their own sloth, and to encourage themselves to run in the course, besides this chief aim, that God be glorified, regard also the eternal reward; whereas it is written, I have inclined my heart to do all thy justifications for the, reward;
and, concerning Moses, the Apostle saith, that he had respect unto the reward.
There's much more.
You don't like complicated issues and the council of Trent is certainly complicated.
The CC was fighting what it believed to be the heresies of the Protestant schism.
John Calvin and the like. Teaching doctrine that had never been taught in the CC and which it believed would lead many astray.
Instead of reading bits and pieces, why not try to really study this and try to believe what the Council was really saying...
Aside from the fact that we're talking about 500 years ago.
Why not learn from the CCC instead? But your choice.
Jethro Bodine
Member
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Is something else required to be declared justified?
Perhaps our willingness to become justified? Unlike what John Calvin taught?
Canon 9 just says that we must be WILLING to be saved.
Read those 2 chapters I posted before and you'll understand better what Canon 9 means.
We are justified only by the justice of Christ received by us.
IOW, we cannot be justified without be justice/merits of Christ.
We are justified solely by the grace and charity which is poured forth in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, and this remains in us...and we must be willing to receive this justification.
Confidence alone does not justify, but our faith in God.
believing that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, he is wrong. Faith is what justifies. And the good works that come AFTER. We cannot depend on God's mercy ALONE.
Try reading the canons in the positive instead of in the negative.
Try to understand what is being said.
This can only be done by reading the chapters.
If you don't care to study this at all, I don't see how you could argue your points.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I can't speak for Mungo and Don.
I respect Mungo's knowledge.
Don says some things I don't quite get...that doesn't mean he's wrong, but is using some language I may not be familiar with.
There is no such word as SANCTIFICATION used much in the Catholic faith.
This is why speaking about JUSTIFICATION is a bit tricky.
To Catholics justification and sanctification are all mixed in together.
If you read those two long, bolded statements I sent, you'd see that you and I also agree with them.
Then the canons are taken out of these beliefs.
There's a lot I don't agree with regarding what the CC teaches.
But justification is not one of them.
You're really beating a dead horse to death.
The CC believes we are JUSTIFIED by faith ONLY.
Faith ALONE is not believed by neither you nor me.
It takes MORE THAN FAITH to be saved for life.
It takes obeying God, it takes not only being neutral, but also doing GOOD WORKS.
All those FAITH ALONE persons who claim all you need is FAITH and NOTHING ELSE are wrong!
Jesus spent His entire ministry trying to teach us how to be holy like God is holy.
How to be perfect like God is perfect....
It's a goal, an ideal.
People that believe in OSAS are wrong.
They can't claim to be Christian and saved, and then live a life of sin as if God didn't even exist and then believe they are still saved.
This is why I used to post so much on this when I still had some energy left...
It's a damning doctrine to be teaching!
Good works are essential to being Christian.
Disagree with the CC on other matters, but not on this!
Jethro Bodine
Member
I don't misunderstand it. It plainly says if a person thinks they are justified solely on the basis of confidence in God's mercy (a.k.a. 'faith'), let him be anathema (cursed):
Are you asserting the paragraphs that you quoted negate the paragraphs I quoted before that. Because it's quite clear in what I posted that Catholic theology thoroughly resists being justified solely on the basis of Christ's work.
I got interrupted while crafting this post. Perhaps you have addressed some of this in the posts you just made.
Jethro Bodine
Member
This has nothing to do with OSAS.
I will address the things you have said when I get home later tonight.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
OSAS has EVERYTHING to do with what we're discussing here.
Think about it.
Can a person accept Jesus, be saved,
and then go on living the way they were before and still be save?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Did you read the two statements from the Council of Trent?
If not, I really can't discuss this any further.
Before I started posting on calvinism, I studied it for a long time.
I read John Calvin, Augustine, Luther, and other authors, like Dave Hunt for instance.
I had to really KNOW what the reformed faith teaches before I started posting about it.
Also, are we on the same page regarding:
ONLY FAITH (saves)
FAITH ALONE (does not save)
Faith ALONE does not save.
Do you know what it means?
If you do, you'll know why OSAS has everything to do with this discussion.
Let's try to get the base right before continuing or we'll just speak past each other.
And now...
How does a man become a member of the new covenant?
Jethro Bodine
Member
You think that James' "faith alone" argument is Paul's "righteousness apart from works" argument. That's why you don't know what "righteousness apart from works" means.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
OK
If you guys want to go on posting forever about this, I'll just get out of the way,,,again.
If our aim here is to clear things up, I'd like to ask you, and Mungo and Walpole two questions:
1. What is the sign of the New Covenant?
2. In 1 sentence explain how a person becomes INITIALLY justified.
Thanks.
Mungo
Walpole