Faith alone questions

[Walpole]

Good works and sacraments DO NOT MAKE YOU A RIGHTEOUS PERSON. THEY DO NOT JUSTIFY YOU. Only faith in God's forgiveness and the imputation of HIS righteousness to you can do that.

If a person thinks that various sacraments constitute the works that are expected of believers in God then that's what they need to do. But in no way do those sacraments, or good deeds, even if they're done in faith, make you a righteous person (that is, they do not justify you). That is the works justification gospel. The one condemned in scripture.

As a reminder, the ONLY place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it.

In the 25th chapter of his Gospel, St. Matthew records our Blessed Lord's last judgement account, whereby He destroys any concept of sola fide...

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, jthen he will sit on hisglorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people onefrom another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on hisright, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who areblessed by my Father, rinherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a strangerand you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was inprison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we seeyou hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you fcursed, into the eternal fireprepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did notminister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to oneof the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, butthe righteous into leternal life.”

Note...

- First, notice the goats in St. Matthew's last judgement account acknowledge Christ as their Lord. (Sola fide didn't save them.)

- Secondly, notice both the sheep and the goats are actually surprised by our Blessed Lord's judgement. (Demonstrating virtuousness is a habit.)

- Thirdly, and more importantly, notice our Blessed Lord's final words in St. Matthew's last judgement account. Those words are...

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Mt. 25:46)


The righteous: δίκαιος / dikaios = observing the divine laws; upright; righteous; virtuous; keeping the commands of God

There is a reason charity (love) is the greatest of all the virtues, even more so than faith, per St. Paul. (1 Cor 13:13).

 

[donadams]

And this is the exact place where Catholic theology goes off the rails.

You are right that "this is what Catholics normally mean by "righteousness"" - the righteousness of your behavior. They think they are declared righteous (justified) by this righteousness, the righteousness that is "intrinsic to man" (your quote) - their righteousness, the righteousness they say God gave them the grace to produce and by which they receive final justification. It is the justifacation of works- becoming righteous by being righteous, the righteousness of law, and relying on that righteousness to enter into the kingdom.

This is the very righteousness - the righteousness intrinsic to man - that Protestants know can not make you perfectly righteous in God's sight. And so we receive and rely on the clothing of the righteousness that comes from God by faith when we cast ourselves on his mercy, helpless to produce the standard of perfect righteousness that God requires.

But this perfect righteousness does not come without consequence. It starts in us the ever increasing traits and qualities of the Spirit that testify to us that we are indeed children of God growing up in to the image of his righteousness with which we are clothed and protected by for the day of wrath.

The receiving of God's grace in justification is not a licence to willfully and deliberately sin with spiritual impunity as some suppose Protestant theology teaches. The person who abuses it that way will eventually lose it altogether, assuming they ever had it to begin with.

And this is the exact place where Catholic theology goes off the rails.

You are right that "this is what Catholics normally mean by "righteousness"" - the righteousness of your behavior. They think they are declared righteous (justified) by this righteousness, the righteousness that is "intrinsic to man" (your quote) - their righteousness, the righteousness they say God gave them the grace to produce and by which they receive final justification. It is the justifacation of works- becoming righteous by being righteous, the righteousness of law, and relying on that righteousness to enter into the kingdom.

This is the very righteousness - the righteousness intrinsic to man - that Protestants know can not make you perfectly righteous in God's sight. And so we receive and rely on the clothing of the righteousness that comes from God by faith when we cast ourselves on his mercy, helpless to produce the standard of perfect righteousness that God requires.

But this perfect righteousness does not come without consequence. It starts in us the ever increasing traits and qualities of the Spirit that testify to us that we are indeed children of God growing up in to the image of his righteousness with which we are clothed and protected by for the day of wrath.

The receiving of God's grace in justification is not a licence to willfully and deliberately sin with spiritual impunity as some suppose Protestant theology teaches. The person who abuses it that way will eventually lose it altogether, assuming they ever had it to begin with.

Works alone? No
Works of the law? No
Apart from Christ and grace? No

Good works makes us just:
Wicked works makes us unjust:

Lk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
(Justified by prayer and humility)
Rom 3:4
Col 4:1
James 2:21
James 2:24
1 John 1:7
1 John 2:4
1 John 2:29

1 John 2:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Actions choosing to act righteous and just or no!

1 Thessalonians 2:10
Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

Titus 2:12
teaching us that, having denied impiety and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, and justly, and piously in the present course of things,

Actions!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Works alone? No
Works of the law? No
Apart from Christ and grace? No

Good works makes us just:
Wicked works makes us unjust:

Lk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
(Justified by prayer and humility)
Rom 3:4
Col 4:1
James 2:21
James 2:24
1 John 1:7
1 John 2:4
1 John 2:29

1 John 2:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Actions choosing to act righteous and just or no!

1 Thessalonians 2:10
Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

Titus 2:12
teaching us that, having denied impiety and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, and justly, and piously in the present course of things,

Actions!

I'm glad to see that you are not resisting the assertion that the Catholic religion is a works justification religion. It teaches that you, by the grace of God, do rituals and works by which you then are justified (made rigjteous).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Lk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
(Justified by prayer and humility)

No, it is by the grace and mercy of God, not the work of his prayer and humility, that the tax collector was justified. Luke 18:13-14, Titus 3:5, 2 Timothy 1:9.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good works makes us just:

No, doing righteous things does not make you righteous. That is the works justification gospel condemned in scripture. Being declared righteous is only possible by receiving a righteousness that is from God. A righteousness that is received by faith in God's forgiveness, apart from the merit of doing righteous rituals and deeds.

Wicked works makes us unjust:

That is true. Wicked people earn the wages of condemnation for their wicked behavior. But justification is a free gift to those who have faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Romans 5:16-18.

 

[donadams]

And this is the exact place where Catholic theology goes off the rails.

You are right that "this is what Catholics normally mean by "righteousness"" - the righteousness of your behavior. They think they are declared righteous (justified) by this righteousness, the righteousness that is "intrinsic to man" (your quote) - their righteousness, the righteousness they say God gave them the grace to produce and by which they receive final justification. It is the justifacation of works- becoming righteous by being righteous, the righteousness of law, and relying on that righteousness to enter into the kingdom.

This is the very righteousness - the righteousness intrinsic to man - that Protestants know can not make you perfectly righteous in God's sight. And so we receive and rely on the clothing of the righteousness that comes from God by faith when we cast ourselves on his mercy, helpless to produce the standard of perfect righteousness that God requires.

But this perfect righteousness does not come without consequence. It starts in us the ever increasing traits and qualities of the Spirit that testify to us that we are indeed children of God growing up in to the image of his righteousness with which we are clothed and protected by for the day of wrath.

The receiving of God's grace in justification is not a licence to willfully and deliberately sin with spiritual impunity as some suppose Protestant theology teaches. The person who abuses it that way will eventually lose it altogether, assuming they ever had it to begin with.

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth graceto the humble.

So we must choose (volition) to be humble

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So we must choose (volition) to be humble

Yeah, but that's still not what makes you righteous.
You do not become righteous by doing righteous things.

 

[Randy]

As a reminder, the ONLY place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it.

In the 25th chapter of his Gospel, St. Matthew records our Blessed Lord's last judgement account, whereby He destroys any concept of sola fide...

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, jthen he will sit on hisglorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people onefrom another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on hisright, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who areblessed by my Father, rinherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a strangerand you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was inprison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we seeyou hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you fcursed, into the eternal fireprepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did notminister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to oneof the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, butthe righteous into leternal life.”

Note...

- First, notice the goats in St. Matthew's last judgement account acknowledge Christ as their Lord. (Sola fide didn't save them.)

- Secondly, notice both the sheep and the goats are actually surprised by our Blessed Lord's judgement. (Demonstrating virtuousness is a habit.)

- Thirdly, and more importantly, notice our Blessed Lord's final words in St. Matthew's last judgement account. Those words are...

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Mt. 25:46)


The righteous: δίκαιος / dikaios = observing the divine laws; upright; righteous; virtuous; keeping the commands of God

There is a reason charity (love) is the greatest of all the virtues, even more so than faith, per St. Paul. (1 Cor 13:13).

God loved us "first" while we were in our "sins".(grace) While it is true those who claim to know Christ but do not do what He commands are proved to be liars for a good tree doesn't bare good fruit our sins were forgiven or reconciled to God by the blood of Christ shed on the cross. So while repent and prove such repentance by what you do was stated its not the end result that justified us beforehand but Gods grace. Saved by grace through faith. The language I find in 1John is that those who are born of God have overcome the world and would not continue to commit mortal sins for they are no longer those under the control of the spirits of disobedience and slaves to sin. The one in them is greater than the one in the world. And John wrote them so that they would know they have "eternal" life.

As Jesus stated about the sheep, "those blessed by my Father"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As a reminder, the ONLY place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it.

That's why you should use the proper phrase, "righteousness apart from works" - Romans 4:6 - not "faith alone" when referring to Paul's argument that a man is justified by faith apart from the merit of works.

"Faith alone" is James' argument, not Paul's, and is referring to being SHOWN to be righteous, not MADE to be righteous as Paul is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In the 25th chapter of his Gospel, St. Matthew records our Blessed Lord's last judgement account, whereby He destroys any concept of sola fide...

That's right. James' "faith alone" argument is entirely true, but it's not the argument for justification Paul is making. Matthew 25:31-46 has nothing to do with how you BECOME righteous (Paul's argument for justification). But it does in fact show that James is correct that the faith that fails to produce works can not save you on Judgement Day. And it isn't because the goats failed to make themselves righteous by doing righteous works as the Catholic church teaches. Dead faith is NO faith. Goats are unbelievers, not believers who have faith but don't have works. If they were believers they'd have works to prove it (1 John 3:9).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is a reason charity (love) is the greatest of all the virtues, even more so than faith, per St. Paul. (1 Cor 13:13).

The greatest virtue does not MAKE you a righteous person. It has no power to make you a righteous person. No work does. You can only become a righteous person by receiving the imputation of God's righteousness by faith in Jesus. Then, from that righteousness you perform the works commensurate with the righteousness of God you have received by faith. You do not get born again by doing righteous works. You get born again to perform righteous works. Those works being the evidence, not the procurer of the righteousness of God you have received by faith in his forgiveness, apart from works.

 

[Randy]

God stated about His chosen people. "You broke my covenant even though I was like a husband to you"
Yet even then while they were in their disobedience by grace God stated, "I will make a new covenant with you"
Those who were not Jews by birth but gentile sinners were included and shown this same grace.

 

[Power_on_HIgh]

The "curse of the Law, Commandments" is that they demand righteousness from you.

And here we are, ... "all have sinned"... "none are righteous no not one'.

The law and commandments are holy., but they are a curse to us because they define us as a SINNER.

See that issue?

That is the "curse of the law".

So, when the Law's Demand meets "all have sinned"...... do you see the issue that God had to resolve?

Welcome to the Cross of Christ.
This is where forgiveness for your sin is found and something more.....

"The Gift of Righteousness"... is RECEIVED as "faith is counted as Righteousness". "justification by faith" without works or the deeds of the Law.

And there is more...

"Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE......Of.....THE......Law""

"Christ is the END OF THE LAW...for RIGHTEOUSNESS... = to everyone who BELIEVES".

The born again are ...""Not Under the LAW.....but under...=GRACE".

 

[donadams]

The Catholic church retains the erroneous works justification mentality of the covenant of law, 'be righteous to become righteous'.

No it don’t
Not deeds of the law
But in Christ and grace

I think you mean acting righteously makes you righteous

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No it don’t
Not deeds of the law
But in Christ and grace

I think you mean acting righteously makes you righteous

This is the deceitfulness and trickery of Catholic teaching.

Adding faith to works and rituals, and saying they are not of the law, does not make those works and rituals able to make you righteous. That's still a works justification gospel.

 

[donadams]

My believing, made possible by His gracious gift of faith, of which I can not boast.

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Pride always protests:
Pride is always in rebellion:
Pride always says I know better, I can decide truth, I don’t need the church and her doctrine / sacraments:

Satan was the first Protestant!
Protested God Himself:
“I will not serve”!

Scripture never authorizes pride, presumption, or arrogance, protests or rebellion!

A Christian must practice the virtues of Jesus Christ!

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Humility always obeys, submits, is faithful, Thy will be done not mine!

Matthew 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himselfshall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

 

[donadams]

You are quite wrong about that.

God is not looking for, let alone demanding, that we conduct rigid, orchestrated and controlled, ritualistic, ceremonial masses for Him. I don't believe that's what really pleases him based on this, and my own experience:

17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. Romans 14:17-18

Be filled with joy and peace and live righteously in the Spirit. That is service to Christ that is pleasing to God. And men who see it and approve of the beauty of it.

All your capable of is praise and thanksgiving.
Not real worship
Adoration
Propitiatory reparation
Etc.
it is set and Unchangeable
The sacrifice of christ
“Do this” in memory of me!

Both mosaic and the new Christian covenants have a:

Temple
Ark of the new covenant
Altar
Propitiatory sacrifice
Triple priesthood
With true worship, adoration, reparation, thanksgiving, and petition in the correct and true faith revealed from Christ, and inspired by His spirit and proposed by His holy divine new covenant church!

New covenant Temple: (the body of Christ) Jn 2:19
Ark of the new covenant: (Mary) Lk 1:35
Altar: (the cross) heb 13:10
New covenant Sacrifice: (the eternal propitiatory sacrifice of Christ)
Acts 20:28 Eph 2:13 heb 9
heb 10:19
Priesthood: (the new covenant priesthood of Christ) heb 7:17
High priest: (Christ is high priest) heb 8:1
Low priests (the order of melchisedec) heb 7:17
Golden censor with incense: rev 8:3


Verses about an altar before God in heaven!
Rev 6:9 8:3 9:13 11:1 14:18 16:7

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Pride always protests

Truth always protests falseness.
Protestants have rebelled against the Catholic church's false doctrine of works justification.

Until a person comes to the end of themselves and realizes that it is only by the righteousness imputed to them from God, and not their own intrinsic righteous behavior, that they can be justified they will remain a natural person working for a justification that can only be had by faith in God's mercy apart from their works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A Christian must practice the virtues of Jesus Christ!

Yes, but that in no way makes a person righteous as the Catholic church claims.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All your capable of is praise and thanksgiving.
Not real worship

No, we worship in Spirit and truth, not in the falseness of rituals and carnal ordinances about procedures and ceremonies and foods:

20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. Colossians 2:20-23


17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. Romans 14:17-18

We Protesters who serve Christ in this way are the one's who have God's approval, not you.