Faith alone questions

[GodsGrace]

You think that James' "faith alone" argument is Paul's "righteousness apart from works" argument. That's why you don't know what "righteousness apart from works" means.

What's the difference?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How does a man become a member of the new covenant?

The same way Abraham did.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2. In 1 sentence explain how a person becomes INITIALLY justified.

There is no scriptural basis for the distinction between an initial justification (being made righteous) and the existence or the necessity for a later justification to be made righteous.

Justification (being imputed the righteousness of God) is a one time event that does not need to be repeated. In fact, God will NOT repeat it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What's the difference?

James is talking about being shown to be righteous (James 2:18). Paul is talking about becoming righteous (Romans 3:21-22).

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no scriptural basis for the distinction between an initial justification (being made righteous) and the existence or the necessity for a later justification to be made righteous.

Justification (being imputed the righteousness of God) is a one time event that does not need to be repeated. In fact, God will NOT repeat it.

It needs to be continued or we forfeit our salvation.

The problem here is LANGUAGE and not doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

James is talking about being shown to be righteous (James 2:18). Paul is talking about becoming righteous (Romans 3:21-22).

OK
You did state this before. I forgot.

Did Paul ever say we could forfeit our salvation?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Justification (being imputed the righteousness of God) is a one time event that does not need to be repeated.

wondering , Hebrews 10:14

"Made perfect" is in the Perfect tense. It's a completed action with continuing results all the way up to the present and which does not need to be repeated.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no scriptural basis for the distinction between an initial justification (being made righteous) and the existence or the necessity for a later justification to be made righteous.

Justification (being imputed the righteousness of God) is a one time event that does not need to be repeated. In fact, God will NOT repeat it.

Of course God can repeat it.

If we bring anyone BACK to the faith, we will be saving him.

Sorry, can't give verses right now..

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering , Hebrews 10:14

"Made perfect" is in the Perfect tense. It's a completed action with continuing results all the way up to the present and which does not need to be repeated.

Could you post verses if you're at a computer?

Is it where it states We are being made perfect??

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Did Paul ever say we could forfeit our salvation?

I think so.
He stressed the necessity to keep believing and not adopt 'another' gospel. And what would happen if you did.

Reformists insist that it's impossible for the true believer to stop believing. And I'm fine with that, if that's what they believe. But, whether you really can or not, the Bible clearly says what will happen if you do stop believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Could you post verses if you're at a computer?

Yes. I am on my PC.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Hebrews 10:14

wondering , Hebrews 10:14

"Made perfect" is in the Perfect tense. It's a completed action with continuing results all the way up to the present and which does not need to be repeated.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is it where it states We are being made perfect??

It's not 'we're being made perfect'.
It's 'we are perfect'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course God can repeat it.

If we bring anyone BACK to the faith, we will be saving him.

Sorry, can't give verses right now..

No, Hebrews 6:4 makes it clear that God does not allow a person to come back to repentance:

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

Reformists say this is talking about people who never really accepted the gospel and who come to the point of rejecting enough revelation about the gospel that God just says, "enough is enough, you're done." And turns them over to their rejection of the gospel. And I say, okay, if he does that with unbelievers, then how much more so he will do that with the believer who rejects the gospel. Again, assuming a true believer can do that.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think so.
He stressed the necessity to keep believing and not adopt 'another' gospel. And what would happen if you did.

Reformists insist that it's impossible for the true believer to stop believing. And I'm fine with that, if that's what they believe. But, whether you really can or not, the Bible clearly says what will happen if you do stop believing.

Agreed. Stop believing is one way.
What about returning to a life of sin?
Paul warns of this because Believe, in the orig. Greek, was understood to mean to follow, to believe in, etc.

Gnosticism was already in the church and another gospel probably was referring to that although it could have meant a different way to be saved. Which there isn't for those that know Jesus.

The reformist belief has holes in it and they know it, but won't discuss that here on this cell.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, Hebrews 6:4 makes it clear that God does not allow a person to come back to repentance:

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

Reformists say this is talking about people who never really accepted the gospel and who come to the point of rejecting enough revelation about the gospel that God just says, "enough is enough, you're done." And turns them over to their rejection of the gospel. And I say, okay, if he does that with unbelievers, then how much more so he will do that with the believer who rejects the gospel. Again, assuming a true believer can do that.

The writer of Hebrews, not Paul or Jesus, is making that statement.

It's referring to Jews returning to the Law...
If not, there is a great discrepancy in the NT.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we bring anyone BACK to the faith, we will be saving him.

This has to be before they fall to an unrestorable condition.

The point comes where God will turn, both, the persistent unbeliever, and the ex-believer over to their choice to not believe, and they will never be allowed to repent, even if they seek it with tears. Sobering truth. In fact, honestly, I don't really like to share it. I don't want to discourage someone who still has a chance to be saved from abandoning the effort to seek the Lord again.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. I am on my PC.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Hebrews 10:14

You are "perfect" if you are sanctified.

If you lose salvation, you lose sanctification.

The forever refers to the afterlife,,,,
If we believe to the end.

As we both agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's not 'we're being made perfect'.
It's 'we are perfect'.

Agreed and answered to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's referring to Jews returning to the Law...
If not, there is a great discrepancy in the NT.

No discrespency. God eventually draws the line where he's done calling an unbeliever (or ex-believer) to faith in Christ. And he turns them over without remedy to the choice they've made:

10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, 12in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Agreed. Stop believing is one way.
What about returning to a life of sin?

Willfully and deliberately returning to a life of sin without conscience or struggle IS unbelief. Doing that is what signifies that a person has either 1) never really believed so as to be saved, or 2) was saved, but quit believing.