Faith alone questions

[Jethro Bodine]

Priesthood: (the new covenant priesthood of Christ) heb 7:17
High priest: (Christ is high priest) heb 8:1
Low priests (the order of melchisedec) heb 7:17
Golden censor with incense: rev 8:3

Your priesthood, your service, and all the carnal trappings of your religion are all in the vanity of a works justification religion that can not justify you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Verses about an altar before God in heaven!
Rev 6:9 8:3 9:13 11:1 14:18 16:7

It's interesting that you did not include this passage in your verses about an altar before God in heaven:

9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods of no value to those devoted to them. 10We have an altar from which those who serve at the tabernacle have no right to eat. Hebrews 13:9-10

You serve at the earthly altar of a false and carnal works justification religion. We serve at and partake of the true altar in heaven from which those who trust in manmade carnal worship have no right to eat.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ark of the new covenant: (Mary) Lk 1:35

Uh, no, lol.

JESUS is the Ark of the Covenant believers carry with them in the inner chamber of the heart in the tent and tabernacle of the flesh.

Altar: (the cross) heb 13:10

No.

The altar of the heart is where the believer offers the sacrifice of his worship. That is the designated place where God comes down and meets man - in the inner chamber of the heart. That's what it means to worship in Spirit and truth and not in a literal place according to outward rules and carnal ordinances and procedures and ceremonies.

 

[Walpole]

That's why you should use the proper phrase, "righteousness apart from works" - Romans 4:6 - not "faith alone" when referring to Paul's argument that a man is justified by faith apart from the merit of works.

Believe the words of Scripture...

"Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." - James 2:20-26

Again, the ONLY place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it.

"Faith alone" is James' argument, not Paul's, and is referring to being SHOWN to be righteous, not MADE to be righteous as Paul is.

There is no contradiction between St. Paul and St. James is because Paul NEVER taught sola fide (faith alone). His words to the faithful at Rome easily confirm this...

Romans 8:24 ---> "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"

St. Paul here states we are saved by hope, thereby refuting any concept of "faith alone" being salvific.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Believe the words of Scripture...

"Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." - James 2:20-26

Again, the ONLY place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it.

I'm not arguing with this! No Protestant does!
The problem is you think James' "faith alone" argument is Paul's "righteousness apart from works" argument.
They are NOT the same thing.
This is the exact place where Catholics go off the rails regarding justification.
They think James is saying a man is MADE righteous by righteous deeds.
No, a man is SHOWN to be righteous by his deeds (James 2:18).
Paul's argument is a man is MADE righteous by his faith, all by itself apart from his works (Romans 4:6, Romans 3:21-22).

This is the precise reason there is a Catholic church and a Protesting church. We firmly resist your faith + works justification religion. It is impossible to become righteous (justified) by acting righteously. That is exactly the works justification gospel condemned in scripture. You don't think yours is a works justification gospel because the Catholic church added faith to works to deceitfully disguise it as a 'righteousness by faith' gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no contradiction between St. Paul and St. James is because Paul NEVER taught sola fide (faith alone). His words to the faithful at Rome easily confirm this...

Romans 8:24 ---> "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"

St. Paul here states we are saved by hope, thereby refuting any concept of "faith alone" being salvific.

You are going to have to start to understand the difference between being justified (made righteous) and being saved.

Works will save you in the sense that they will be the evidence by which you are SHOWN to be a born again, justified child of God. Works do not MAKE you that born again, justified child of God. Righteousness imputed to you apart from your works does that all by itself, just as that was true for Abraham, our example of how faith in God's promise of a Son is counted as righteousness to the person who believes, apart from and without benefit of his works.

 

[donadams]

No, you can not be saved and not justified. You must be justified in order to be saved.

Water baptism does not justify a person.
That is what you are not getting.

No work can justify a person (make them righteous).
The only way to become righteous is to have the guilt of your unrighteousness forgiven and God's righteousness put in it's place. But Catholics are busy using God's grace to intrinsically produce the righteousness within themselves that they think makes a person righteous enough to inherit the kingdom. That is a works justification gospel. The one condemned in scripture. Meanwhile, we Protestants rely on God's righteousness imputed to us when we believe, apart from the merit of working righteous deeds and rituals to be declared righteous and enter into the kingdom.

We never said it was washing with water that justifies but God’s grace!

Is it oil that heals or the anointing of the spirit?

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Catholicism is a works justification religion wearing the disguise of faith + works justification. It says God gives you the grace by faith to do the righteous rituals and works by which you are justified. Many, many people are fooled by it. Natural people, not spiritual people.

1st Does being a member of Christ
Filled with the spirit
United with God in grace mean anything to you

2nd actions are required to be just or wicked

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1st Does being a member of Christ
Filled with the spirit
United with God in grace mean anything to you

United with God by faith, not by faithfully doing rituals and works.

2nd actions are required to be just or wicked

Actions are required to be considered just in the eyes of God (James 2:18). Not to become just in the eyes of God (Romans 3:28,21,24).

 

[GodsGrace]

It's interesting that you did not include this passage in your verses about an altar before God in heaven:

9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods of no value to those devoted to them. 10We have an altar from which those who serve at the tabernacle have no right to eat. Hebrews 13:9-10

You serve at the earthly altar of a false and carnal works justification religion. We serve at and partake of the true altar in heaven from which those who trust in manmade carnal worship have no right to eat.

PLEASE PROCEED WITH CAUTION.
YOU'RE BREAKING TOS RULES
1.1, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5

PLEASE SHOW RESPECT FOR BOTH MEMBERS AND THEIR FAITH.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THREAD. USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We never said it was washing with water that justifies but God’s grace!

You say the obedient action of being baptized justifies you (makes you righteous).
That is a works justification gospel.
That is the same as saying faithfully getting circumcised makes you righteous in God's sight.

Protestant theology says faith in the gospel of God's forgiveness justifies.
That is a faith justification gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

You say the obedient action of being baptized justifies you (makes you righteous).
That is a works justification gospel.
That is the same as saying faithfully getting circumcised makes you righteous in God's sight.

Protestant theology says faith in the gospel of God's forgiveness justifies.
That is a faith justification gospel.

Jethro
I see such a big chasm here that should not exist.

Could you PLEASE post something from an official statement from a Catholic source stating that faith only would not save.

I think a big misunderstanding here is that there's a difference between ONLY FAITH
and FAITH ONLY.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro
I see such a big chasm here that should not exist.

Could you PLEASE post something from an official statement from a Catholic source stating that faith only would not save.

I think a big misunderstanding here is that there's a difference between ONLY FAITH
and FAITH ONLY.

Council of Trent:

Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

Canon 10. If anyone says that men are justified without the justice of Christ, whereby Her merited for us, or by that justice are formally just, let him be anathema.

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 13. If anyone says that in order to obtain the remission of sins it is necessary for every man to believe with certainty and without any hesitation arising from his own weakness and indisposition that his sins are forgiven him, let him be anathema.

Canon 14. If anyone says that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified, or that no one is truly justified except him who believes himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are effected, let him be anathema.

Canon 15. If anyone says that a man who is born again and justified is bound ex fide to believe that he is certainly in the number of the predestined, let him be anathema.

English 233: The Council of Trent: Decree on Justification (excerpt)

 

[donadams]

I'm glad to see that you are not resisting the assertion that the Catholic religion is a works justification religion. It teaches that you, by the grace of God, do rituals and works by which you then are justified (made rigjteous).

Not works alone
But grace filled works

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not works alone
But grace filled works

I am aware of your argument.

You believe a person becomes righteous by having faith and completing commanded rituals and deeds, not by simply believing God's promise about his Son, the way Abraham was credited righteousness.

 

[donadams]

No, it is by the grace and mercy of God, not the work of his prayer and humility, that the tax collector was justified. Luke 18:13-14, Titus 3:5, 2 Timothy 1:9.

He who exaults himself or he who humbled himself choose (volition) to do so

 

[donadams]

This is the deceitfulness and trickery of Catholic teaching.

Adding faith to works and rituals, and saying they are not of the law, does not make those works and rituals able to make you righteous. That's still a works justification gospel.

“Works of the law” is a legal term only refers to the ordinances of the mosaic covenant and good works done in Christ thru grace

 

[donadams]

Truth always protests falseness.
Protestants have rebelled against the Catholic church's false doctrine of works justification.

Until a person comes to the end of themselves and realizes that it is only by the righteousness imputed to them from God, and not their own intrinsic righteous behavior, that they can be justified they will remain a natural person working for a justification that can only be had by faith in God's mercy apart from their works.

How do we obtain mercy?

 

[donadams]

Yes, but that in no way makes a person righteous as the Catholic church claims.

Then it’s meaningless and unnecessary?

 

[donadams]

No, we worship in Spirit and truth, not in the falseness of rituals and carnal ordinances about procedures and ceremonies and foods:

20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. Colossians 2:20-23


17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. Romans 14:17-18

We Protesters who serve Christ in this way are the one's who have God's approval, not you.

Your dreaming

Did not Christ exercise His high priesthood in rituals?