Faith and Works: A delicate balance.

[dadof10]

Hi Mark,

Let me answer your second question first. I believe that we are saved by the grace of God, through faith (which is also given by the grace of God), and that this is all a work of the Holy Spirit. A rebirth according to John 3. This earnest belief is not just lip service, it is actual belief that changes the way one thinks and acts. That's why I find it hard to separate faith and works. I think they are both a product of the Holy Spirit's work in us.

Hi Tina,

I agree, but the reality is we all sin, and that sin breaks our communion with God in a real way. We can lose our salvation through our works and, as Scripture says, we will be judged by them, for good or ill.

I find it hard to break down anymore, not because I don't understand basic theology, but because God is far more beautiful and complex than something man can devise in a book. I know we have to communicate, but most of the time it all seems to fall way too short because there is just layers and layers of Truth still to get to. We have a relationship with Him, and it's not a forumla, you know? The Word of God is powerful, and man can not relate that power, but it will change us.

Yes, it will change us and I see what you're saying about our understanding of God falling far short.

I'm a huge Ram fan from way back, I used to live in So. Cal. But the Cards....eeeehhhh :wink:

God Bless, Mark

 

[MarkT]

Remember the godless can do good works too but it is God working in us and through us that makes the work good; not what we would consider good or what the world considers good and not that we are good.

All good works must be done in faith. The "godless" good works can not justify.

No works justify. It's God who justifies him who has faith in Jesus Christ.

But even so, perhaps they will come to Christ when Jesus raises them from the dead. Perhaps they will be justified by what they did for us out of the goodness of their heart while we were doing the work of God. As Paul said, 'it is the doers of the law who will be justified'. Romans 2:13

It's not a co-operation where God is working with us to do what we think is good. It's God working in us to do his will, which is good.

What if we refuse to obey? Will this actually effect our salvation?

Perish the thought that there is such a thing as a believer who doesn't fear God and who willfully disobeys. Nevertheless, the wicked servant will be cast out into the outer darkness.

 

[brakelite2]

What if we refuse to obey? Will this actually effect our salvation?

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Ro 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

however....
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

if we refuse to repent after that the Lord has convicted us, and we resist the Holy Spirit continuing to neglect our known duty, we are then found to be commiting the unpardonable sin. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[dadof10]

No works justify. It's God who justifies him who has faith in Jesus Christ.

If by "works" you mean works of the Jewish Law, then I agree with you. But if you are trying to stretch the word to mean good deeds, charity, keeping the commandments, et.al. then I would have to disagree, and so would James.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."

Obviously some "works" justify.

But even so, perhaps they will come to Christ when Jesus raises them from the dead. Perhaps they will be justified by what they did for us out of the goodness of their heart while we were doing the work of God. As Paul said, 'it is the doers of the law who will be justified'. Romans 2:13

I have no idea what this means.

Perish the thought that there is such a thing as a believer who doesn't fear God and who willfully disobeys. Nevertheless, the wicked servant will be cast out into the outer darkness.

Perish the thought??? We are EVERYWHERE. A person who wilfully disobeys God is called a sinner. I happen to be one and so is every believer I've ever met. It has to be wilfull to be a sin. It can't be an accident. There has to be intent. We sin, then repent.

Are you saying that if a person wilfully disobeys he is a "wicked servant" who is cast into the "outer darkness"?

 

[dadof10]

if we refuse to repent after that the Lord has convicted us, and we resist the Holy Spirit continuing to neglect our known duty, we are then found to be commiting the unpardonable sin. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

So then we can lose our salvation by our "works" or lack there of? I agree.

 

[cyberjosh]

I'll say this, "Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin" (James 4:17).

 

[dadof10]

I'll say this, "Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin" (James 4:17).

Amen!

 

[Drew]

If by "works" you mean works of the Jewish Law, then I agree with you. But if you are trying to stretch the word to mean good deeds, charity, keeping the commandments, et.al. then I would have to disagree, and so would James.

I agree. This is one persistent misunderstanding that causes great theological confusion. People can't (or won't) see that context (scriptural as well as historical) shows that when Paul (as the biggest example) denies the salvific effect of "works", he is not (repeat not) referring to the general catergory of "good deeds". Instead he is referring to the works of Torah - the Law of Moses - the Jewish Law.

Paul may have been the apostle to the Gentiles. But he lives in a thoroughly Jewish matrix of thought - remember, he was a Jewish Pharisee. He saw "works" as denoting the Torah - the ethnic charter of the Jews.

So in places like Romans 3 and Ephesian 2, he does not deny that "good deeds" justify - he denies that Torah justifies. For those willing to have their worldviews challenged - and what right thinking person is not open to this - reread those texts substitutings "works" with "works of Torah".

You will, I suspect, see how much more sense Paul's material then makes.

 

[destiny]

Matthew 25:
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Notice the righteous weren't even aware they were doing "good works". If we are in right relationship with the Lord then we will naturally move in the appointments (works) He has for us without striving. These works are a natural overflow of being in right standing with God.

Simplistic

 

[Drew]

If we are in right relationship with the Lord then we will naturally move in the appointments (works) He has for us without striving. These works are a natural overflow of being in right standing with God.

I think this is the correct way to see "good works". And it eliminates the dangerous position that "I can get into heaven by believing in the proposition that Jesus is Lord, and yet living in a manner that manifestly contradicts this".

 

[destiny]

I have found that His (Jesus') yoke is easy and His burden is light compared to the religious yoke man will put on you in the name of "good works". That usually being some sort of program.

 

[dadof10]

Matthew 25:
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Notice the righteous weren't even aware they were doing "good works".

They were aware they were doing good works, they just didn't realize Who was the beneficiary (so to speak). If they were really oblivious to the fact of good works, then in verses 41-46, those "on
His left" would also to have been oblivious to their lack of works. Were they condemned without actually sinning?

 

[destiny]

Matthew 25:
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Notice the righteous weren't even aware they were doing "good works".

They were aware they were doing good works, they just didn't realize Who was the beneficiary (so to speak). If they were really oblivious to the fact of good works, then in verses 41-46, those "on
His left" would also to have been oblivious to their lack of works. Were they condemned without actually sinning?

I think they thought their good works would get them to heaven though they had no relationship with God. If God says, "I never knew you" then you were never in a relationship with Him.

A lot of "Christians" do religious works in His name without ever really knowing Him; the churches are filled with those who don't really (know) Him, yet they are religiously working outside of the appointments of the Holy spirit. This is why they missed it.

 

[turnorburn]

Matthew 25:
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Notice the righteous weren't even aware they were doing "good works".

They were aware they were doing good works, they just didn't realize Who was the beneficiary (so to speak). If they were really oblivious to the fact of good works, then in verses 41-46, those "on
His left" would also to have been oblivious to their lack of works. Were they condemned without actually sinning?

Please explain this statement.. Were they condemned without actually sinning?
how do we not actually sin when the bible says we are born in sin

 

[destiny]

They weren't saved.. they didn't know the Lord (He didn't know them). Wouldn't that condemn? :o

 

[turnorburn]

They weren't saved.. they didn't know the Lord (He didn't know them). Wouldn't that condemn? :o

No they weren't saved and no they didn't know the Lord and yes that would condemn and I didn't know you were here your invisible Destiny :smt018

 

[dadof10]

Matthew 25:
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Notice the righteous weren't even aware they were doing "good works".

They were aware they were doing good works, they just didn't realize Who was the beneficiary (so to speak). If they were really oblivious to the fact of good works, then in verses 41-46, those "on
His left" would also to have been oblivious to their lack of works. Were they condemned without actually sinning?

Please explain this statement.. Were they condemned without actually sinning?
how do we not actually sin when the bible says we are born in sin

Sure. Destiny claimed that the "righteous" in Mt. 25: 34-40 were not "even aware they were doing "good works". These were the people who fed, clothed and took care of the needs of "the least of my brothers". In the rest of the lesson (verses 41-45) we see the ones who didn't clothe, feed or take care of these brothers. If the people DOING good works are unaware, it stands to reason that the people who are NOT DOING the good works are also unaware.

Jesus says: "Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...". And in verse 46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

There is a judgement. These people are bring judged by their works.

So, if Destiny is right, these people are being judged by doing (or not doing) things that they are unaware of.

A person must have full intent and full freedom in order to commit sin. We can't just stumble into either sin or righteousness. Both are acts of the will.

Obviously both groups of people (the cursed and the righteous) are well aware of what they are doing, otherwise they are being judged even though ignorant of either the sin they are commiting or the virtue they are exhibiting.

 

[destiny]

Matthew 7:18-23

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


What do you make of those verses?

 

[dadof10]

I think they thought their good works would get them to heaven though they had no relationship with God. If God says, "I never knew you" then you were never in a relationship with Him.

A lot of "Christians" do religious works in His name without ever really knowing Him; the churches are filled with those who don't really (know) Him, yet they are religiously working outside of the appointments of the Holy spirit. This is why they missed it.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this. I think you are right about the "cursed" in context. Where we disagree is when you said that the righteous were unaware that they were even doing good works. I think they were aware and DID have a relationship with God, otherwise they wouldn't be righteous, right?

 

[destiny]

I don't think rightousness comes through works, but works is a by-product of being in right relationship with God. Being in the will of God through relationship will naturally give us the divine appointments of walking in the spirit.
They are interwoven in to our life in such a way that we aren't even aware of them. Like running into someone at the grocery store to witness to.. etc.
The works just cross our daily paths. Not saying there aren't times when we know we are doing good works for God.

A religious unsaved person is out looking for works in order to find favor with God; they have no relationship with Him and they think (their good works) will bring them righteousness. The fruit they produce is not within the will of God because they don't know Him. That group is of the world yet they've been made to think they are saved because of what they are "doing". This is what I see in those scriptures.