Faith and Works: A delicate balance.

[francisdesales]

I don't think rightousness comes through works, but works is a by-product of being in right relationship with God.

That comes from the mindset that man is a beast that is ridden by God or the devil...

A mindset that man has no free will and man cannot resist grace.

A mindset that contradicts Christian thought since before the reformation.

Good works is not ALWAYS a "by-product" of being righteous. Man retains the free will to accept or reject God's graces, daily. Thus, when righteous in God's eyes, we have been given the grace to DO good works - but it doesn't follow that we WILL do good works. Good works is not a conveyor belt that begins with faith automatically. Re-read James 2 and note that James (Paul does this numerous times) exhorts and chastises Christians who are NOT living the Christian way.

Their dialogue presumes that man can and does reject God's graces and that good works do not always follow from having faith.

Faith alone does not save.

Regards

 

[destiny]

You must not have paid much attention to what I wrote, Fran. :-?

Oh well.

 

[francisdesales]

You must not have paid much attention to what I wrote, Fran. :-?

Oh well.

I quoted the line in question. You imply that faith begins a "conveyor belt" that produces good works. Here is what you wrote...

I don't think rightousness comes through works, but works is a by-product of being in right relationship with God

Now, if you said something totally different in the following or preceding posts, please point me to them. If I have misunderstood this line out of context, please point me to the pertinent lines, rather than "oh well"... That sort of reply is not very helpful for me in learning your point of view.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

destiny wrote:

"I don't think rightousness comes through works, but works is a by-product of being in right relationship with God"

Those works that will pass the test, are those that come from a right relationship with God, all other works will be burned away. It is God working in His children to produce fruit as Ephesians 2:10 proclaims, that last.
Bubba

 

[dadof10]

I

A religious unsaved person is out looking for works in order to find favor with God; they have no relationship with Him and they think (their good works) will bring them righteousness. The fruit they produce is not within the will of God because they don't know Him. That group is of the world yet they've been made to think they are saved because of what they are "doing". This is what I see in those scriptures.

Jesus is speaking specifically about false prophets, not "religious unsaved" people. Verses 15-17 say "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. "

I guess you can stretch the text to include the former group in the latter, but i think he means people who come into the Church and spread heresy specifically by prophesy. Actual "prophets", not simply church members.

 

[destiny]

I

A religious unsaved person is out looking for works in order to find favor with God; they have no relationship with Him and they think (their good works) will bring them righteousness. The fruit they produce is not within the will of God because they don't know Him. That group is of the world yet they've been made to think they are saved because of what they are "doing". This is what I see in those scriptures.

Jesus is speaking specifically about false prophets, not "religious unsaved" people. Verses 15-17 say "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. "

I guess you can stretch the text to include the former group in the latter, but i think he means people who come into the Church and spread heresy specifically by prophesy. Actual "prophets", not simply church members.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Verse 22 is speaking of many people who thought they were saved and doing good works; not just false prophets.
_________________
Fran, I think I agree with what you posted. I do feel we have a choice to reject or obey God on a daily basis. My point was that if we are walking in the spirit then we will more than likely be doing good works, because we are walking in the spirit- or are in relationship with God.

I would doubt someones salvation if I didn't see any fruit thereof. Faith without works is dead.

 

[francisdesales]

Fran, I think I agree with what you posted. I do feel we have a choice to reject or obey God on a daily basis. My point was that if we are walking in the spirit then we will more than likely be doing good works, because we are walking in the spirit- or are in relationship with God.

Thank you for re-visting what I wrote and clarifying things. Too many people think if they have faith, works automatically follow. The Christian walk is a struggle, even after we have received the gift of faith. God values our free will decisions to choose Him over sin - daily. Yes, we must first have faith for our works to be of any value. But just as God is the giver of faith, God is also the giver of the right will to choose good. Even our good works are gifts from Him.

I would doubt someones salvation if I didn't see any fruit thereof. Faith without works is dead.

It's better we don't judge someone whose works today might not be of value, as tommorrow is another day. Where would the prodigal son be if he was judged the day before he began to return home? It is my opinion that we don't know what God has in store for any of us, so to doubt one's salvation is not something I worry about.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Verse 22 is speaking of many people who thought they were saved and doing good works; not just false prophets.

I agree. It seem like he moved on from speaking of false prophets in verse 21. He seems to end His warning in verse 20 with "Thus, by your fruits you shall know them", then move on to "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord..." in verse 21.

You were also right in a previous post when you said: "I think they thought their good works would get them to heaven though they had no relationship with God. If God says, "I never knew you" then you were never in a relationship with Him."

Of course we need to have a relationship with God or our works amount to nothing. Now, do you think the good deeds or works done in faith by people who do have a relationship with Him, actually effect a persons salvation? Do you think, as James says, we are justified by our deeds?

 

[destiny]

I believe we are saved by grace. Good works.. like I said before...are a byproduct of our salvation. They will come if our conversion is real. I do believe there can be circumstance where a believer isn't doing good works out of ignorance or immaturity, but this isn't the norm.

We are saved by faith, not works: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9).

I think we've all been saying the same things in different ways.

 

[one_lost_coin]

There is no delicate balance between faith and works it is rather simple, Mary got it right when she said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

rather there is a giant chasm seperating "faith and works" from "our working" our way to heaven.

 

[destiny]

There is no delicate balance between faith and works it is rather simple, Mary got it right when she said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

rather there is a giant chasm seperating "faith and works" from "our working" our way to heaven.

Like I already said.. if we are in right relationship with God, then works will simply come to us. No great chasm, no striving, just walking the walk.

That's all I got for now.

 

[turnorburn]

There is no delicate balance between faith and works it is rather simple, Mary got it right when she said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

rather there is a giant chasm seperating "faith and works" from "our working" our way to heaven.

Please explain "our working" our way to heaven, and for the love of Pete don't tell me it has anything to to with
Purgatory

 

[francisdesales]

I believe we are saved by grace. Good works.. like I said before...are a byproduct of our salvation. They will come if our conversion is real. I do believe there can be circumstance where a believer isn't doing good works out of ignorance or immaturity, but this isn't the norm.

My brother, how do we know who is a believer by looking from the outside at what they do, esp. over a short time or an incomplete time period? That is why I have a distaste for such talk and I don't "judge" who is a "believer". If one says they believe in Jesus Christ, that's faith. If this same person does good, the Lord is providing them with the impetus to do good works (Eph 2:10 says that is what we were made to do...). However, this same person can do all of the above and be considered "external works" by the Lord - "AND I NEVER KNEW YOU" says Jesus to such. The Pharisees did LOTS of works... Perhaps Christians, Catholic and Protestant, are still guilty of such things - appearing good on the outside, but not.

WE cannot make those judgments on whose conversions are "real". God will. We both must admit that even the "truest" of believers falter, and even the pagan can love from the heart. I don't think Luther's black and white of the matter plumbs the depths of this mystery. Nor do I see grace as irresistible. A person "saved" today can fall away next year - and that person could have the deepest love of God today. The whole idea of works proceeding from faith, as if faith is a force of generation, belittles the truth of the matter - that God provides faith AND the desire to work to men. Both faith and works come from God. Faith is not a machine that provides works. It is a requirment, but not the engine that pumps them out.

I think we've all been saying the same things in different ways.

[/quote]

Perhaps. But this discussion is meant to clear away apparent definitional issues. I believe that works are from God, you believe works are from "faith", as if faith is a metaphysical force and is RESPONSIBLE for man's good works! Faith lays the groundwork, but by itself, it does not move the will to do good. God does (Phil 2:12-13)

Also, a person can have "all the faith in the world" and not have love, which is USELESS! (1 Cor 13:2)

Again, faith is not a mover, as even "all the faith in the world" does not necessarily bring forth works of love. James clearly states that in James 2 when he discusses the rich and poor in the community.

Yes? No?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

There is no delicate balance between faith and works it is rather simple, Mary got it right when she said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

rather there is a giant chasm seperating "faith and works" from "our working" our way to heaven.

Please explain "our working" our way to heaven, and for the love of Pete don't tell me it has anything to to with
Purgatory

"Working" our way to heaven means it is a struggle. ON OUR PART! We also enter into the "desert" and face our own demons in the desert. It is not easy, meaning we struggle to do God's will. God's graces are not irresistible. Anyone who has actually lived life can vouch for that. We are daily tempted to sin, even though we know such and such is wrong. Temptations are presented to us, and it is difficult to sometimes reject them, especially when God is a hidden God and His promises are veiled in the next life.

Regards

 

[destiny]

I am not out to perfectly match my views up with someone else's (opinions).

I'm out..

 

[brakelite2]

There is no delicate balance between faith and works it is rather simple, Mary got it right when she said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

rather there is a giant chasm seperating "faith and works" from "our working" our way to heaven.

If the issue is so clear cut as you suggest, then why did Paul and James find it necessary to clarify the very same matter which we are still debating upon 2000 years later?
Jesus daid "Abide in Me and you will bear much fruit." He also said that we would know who are His by the fruit which they bear. We all bear fruit, for we are all abiding in something. But if one is abiding in the truth, in the vine which God Himself planted, then the fruit we bear is good fruit. If we are abiding in that which is error, or in a corrupt church, the fruit we shall bear is corrupt. As Jesus says, you don't get apples from orange trees, or words to that effect. :wink:

Many do appear to be bearing good fruit however, but they do not know Jesus. The fruit of the Spirit are listed. Satan can counterfeit many of them, but the real fruit are those which bear the imprint of the Master.
Love of the Spirit is self-sacrificing. It loves even your enemies.
Joy of the Spirit is a deep heart felt contnetment that no circumstance can alter.
Peace of the Spirit does not argue or defend itself when faced with even wrongful accusation.
Longsuffering is patience when waiting upon God's answers to prayer when all your senses dictate that no answer is forthcoming.This is not a blind faith, but an assurance in God's love being borne out in patience.
Gentleness never argues or seeks dominance over others.
Goodness is being transformed into the very image of God.
Faith is not a head belief in a 'higher power'. It is a immoveable trust and surrendering of oneself for the sake of your heavenly Father.

There are of course many other variations on the above themes. Those are just personal to me. But do you get the idea? Good fruit is bound up in the very righteousness of the Saviour. And it is the imparting of that righteousness that is inevitable if we are attached to the vine. It is a natural growth that comes from the root, flows through the branches and bears the fruit.We must however be willing to be transformed. We do have a part to play, a part in co-operating and 'working out our salvation with fear and trembling', knowing the fate of those who are disobedient and unfaithful.

The thing we have to work at is not the bearing of the fruit , but rather what we need to work at is remaining a part of the vine. The fruits of a righteous character will be manifest in any person who is abiding in the vine, and is willing to co-operate and obey.

 

[destiny]

The thing we have to work at is not the bearing of the fruit , but rather what we need to work at is remaining a part of the vine. The fruits of a righteous character will be manifest in any person who is abiding in the vine, and is willing to co-operate and obey.

There are of course many other variations on the above themes. Those are just personal to me. But do you get the idea? Good fruit is bound up in the very righteousness of the Saviour. And it is the imparting of that righteousness that is inevitable if we are attached to the vine. It is a natural growth that comes from the root, flows through the branches and bears the fruit.We must however be willing to be transformed. We do have a part to play, a part in co-operating and 'working out our salvation with fear and trembling', knowing the fate of those who are disobedient and unfaithful.

I liked that, brakelite... in fact I liked your whole post. Thanks!

 

[dadof10]

I believe we are saved by grace. Good works.. like I said before...are a byproduct of our salvation. They will come if our conversion is real. I do believe there can be circumstance where a believer isn't doing good works out of ignorance or immaturity, but this isn't the norm.

Certainly "good works" will accompany a true conversion, and the will to do the works and to keep the faith are gifts from God. I think when we say "good works" we think of feeding the poor, giving to charity, visiting the sick.

What about the simple day-to-day decisions we make which are far more common? What about holding your temper when someone bothers you? Not passing on gossip? Being kind to someone who is being unkind to you? What about purposely NOT doing these things and the hundreds of other things that pop up during any average day? What about the sins we commit?

Falling short on a daily basis is the norm. Do you think these decisions, either doing or not doing these "good works" effect our salvation?

 

[destiny]

I believe we are saved by grace. Good works.. like I said before...are a byproduct of our salvation. They will come if our conversion is real. I do believe there can be circumstance where a believer isn't doing good works out of ignorance or immaturity, but this isn't the norm.

Certainly "good works" will accompany a true conversion, and the will to do the works and to keep the faith are gifts from God. I think when we say "good works" we think of feeding the poor, giving to charity, visiting the sick.

What about the simple day-to-day decisions we make which are far more common? What about holding your temper when someone bothers you? Not passing on gossip? Being kind to someone who is being unkind to you? What about purposely NOT doing these things and the hundreds of other things that pop up during any average day? What about the sins we commit?

Falling short on a daily basis is the norm. Do you think these decisions, either doing or not doing these "good works" effect our salvation?

I believe I fall short in so many areas of my life, and Jesus' grace is sufficient to carry me in my shortcomings. The key is to keep pressing forward in Christ; we won't be perfect until we put on incorruption.

Matthew 24:13 - "But he who endures to the end shall be saved."

What about purposely NOT doing these things and the hundreds of other things that pop up during any average day? What about the sins we commit?

I don't think it is the will of God for anyone to do hundreds of things throughout the day that are works related.

 

[francisdesales]

I don't think it is the will of God for anyone to do hundreds of things throughout the day that are works related.

Does your definition of "work" include obeying the Will of God (through His graces)?

When I love my brother, am I "working" (earing payment from God)?

I think the definition of "work" forces us to talk past each other unless definied.

Regards