Faith without works........is Faith.

[Jethro Bodine]

Good. Even though I'm extremely tired right now, I caught this:

I said:
The point is, our justification, our redemption, our salvation is a free gift given to us by God.

And you responded:
And because they are gifts of God, they are all irrevocable.

You have just acknowledged that forgiveness is a gift of God. Now that we got that out of the way (forgiveness really is a gift of God) let's talk about why it's impossible that Paul is including the gift of forgiveness in the gifts that he says are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB.

 

[gr8grace3]

Good. Even though I'm extremely tired right now, I caught this:

I said:
The point is, our justification, our redemption, our salvation is a free gift given to us by God.

And you responded:
And because they are gifts of God, they are all irrevocable.

You have just acknowledged that forgiveness is a gift of God. Now that we got that out of the way (forgiveness really is a gift of God) let's talk about why it's impossible that Paul is including the gift of forgiveness in the gifts that he says are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB.

This is just amazing stuff. Why would one want to "unseal" himself this bad!(not going to happen though)

Eph 4:30~~New American Standard Bible
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[Donovb]

(Post removed, failure to follow forum guidelines. Obadiah)

 

[gr8grace3]

Being saved is by faith through grace simply. If you don't work, this will not keep you out of heaven, the only thing that God requires is believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, arose 3 days later and now sits at the right side of God and is coming back. The works are what is going to be judged by fire for the saved by fire, and you will be rewarded for your works, but no works does not keep you out of heaven. But if your really born again the holy spirit will lead you into doing works.

I agree completely. He leads us into divine good. But He does not force the believer to do divine Good.

Eph 2:10~~King James Bible
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There is no promise in the word that we WILL walk in them after we have eternal life in Christ. In fact, 98% of the bible would not be written if we "just will" do DIVINE good after we are saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

You forget so quickly. Here it is again:
Whether you meant to, or not, you included justification/ redemption in the context that you yourself set that defines what gifts Paul is saying are irrevocable in Romans 11:29.

I really don't understand how you keep missing my point. This is not about your claim "that you yourself set" in defining the meaning of 'gift'. Please acknowledge that my point has always been how the writer of Romans defined that word. Not me. Not ever.

Paul described or defined 3 gifts before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. Again, spiritual gifts in 1:11 are irrevocable. Justification in 3;24 and 5:15,16,17 is irrevocable. And eternal life in 6:23 is irrevocable.

These are the ONLY things that Paul himself defined as God's gifts before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in 11:29.

But you can't include justification/ redemption--the forgiveness of our sins (Ephesians 1:7 NASB, Colossians 1:14 NASB--in those gifts because we know that he's not talking about those free gifts.

So, how do we know that? I've been asking for evidence but haven't received any to date. Furthermore, Paul himself defined justification as a gift in 2 places: 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. So your claim is erroneous.

We know that because that would put Paul in direct contradiction with Jesus who taught in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB that forgiveness can and will be revoked from the person who treats it with contempt.

Actually, this is an extremely weak argument for your view. Matt 18 has nothing to do with Romans. No one in Rome reading Paul's letter would even think of what Matt wrote in ch 18. In fact, where's the evidence that Matt was written before Romans.

As I've already pointed out, Matt was written somewhere between 50-70 AD, while Romans was written between 56-58 AD. There can be no context where there is no text. You've not proven that Matt was written before Romans.

Even if that can be proven, you'd next have to prove that Paul specifically excluded both justification and eternal life from gifts of God that are NOT revocable.

Your theory about Matt 18 was thoroughly refuted some pages ago by another poster who pointed out what that parable was really about.

So, your defense is using a parable that you totally misunderstand to deny a truth that Paul wrote.

Please keep in mind that it is Paul who set the terms of definition for 'gift' in Rom 11:29, not me. He is the one who defined gifts as spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life, all BEFORE he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's a ridiculous argument. The context is the same in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB as it is Romans 3:24--forgiveness in the kingdom of God.

Paul wrote that justification is a gift in Rom 3:24, and as well, in 5:15,16,17. Where did he clarify that justification should not be included in the gifts that are irrevocable? He didn't. It's ridiculous to argue otherwise.

But you're clinging to a worthless argument that says because it's in another book of the Bible it is out of context with Romans. All OSAS does with Jesus' teaching is treat it as a meaningless nothing.

I've been asking for the proof that Matt was written before Romans. Just because it occurs in order before Romans means nothing regarding when it was written.

Remember, there can be NO CONTEXT without a text.

But even if Matt was written before Romans, the huge assumption that the Roman readers would think of Matt 18 when they came to Rom 11:29 is just silly. There is no context for that.

The context for Rom 11:29 is contained within Romans, where Paul set the definition of what he meant by gift. And he told us what he meant; spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life, which are the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

Trying to drag Matt 18 into Rom 11:29 is unacceptable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Good. Even though I'm extremely tired right now, I caught this:

I said:
The point is, our justification, our redemption, our salvation is a free gift given to us by God.

And you responded:
And because they are gifts of God, they are all irrevocable.

You have just acknowledged that forgiveness is a gift of God.

It really doesn't matter. If it is, it falls under Rom 11:29 and is irrevocable. The misunderstanding of Matt 18 on your part has no bearing on truth. As another poster pointed out, the parable shows that the man didn't have his forgiveness revoked. Rather, he was charged with the NEW SIN of unforgiveness of a fellow servant.

Now that we got that out of the way (forgiveness really is a gift of God) let's talk about why it's impossible that Paul is including the gift of forgiveness in the gifts that he says are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB.

Since no one has yet shown that Paul didn't include ANYTHING that isn't irrevocable, it isn't impossible for Paul to have even included forgiveness as being an irrevocable gift in 11:29.

Why you think Paul didn't include justification or eternal life in 11:29 is baffling to me.

 

[FreeGrace]

Being saved is by faith through grace simply. If you don't work, this will not keep you out of heaven, the only thing that God requires is believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, arose 3 days later and now sits at the right side of God and is coming back. The works are what is going to be judged by fire for the saved by fire, and you will be rewarded for your works, but no works does not keep you out of heaven. But if your really born again the holy spirit will lead you into doing works.

But some really don't understand what "through grace" means.

 

[JLB]

But some really don't understand what "through grace" means.

Nor do they understand what "by faith through grace" means.

The way grace is appropriated is by faith.

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:1-2

Stop having faith in Christ, and you stop appropriating the grace in which you are empowered to stand.

Faith is the substance.... Of the thing hoped for.

Grace is obtained by faith.

Faith without the action of obedience is dead.

The gift that God's gives us is received by faith, that is the only way it is obtained, by faith.

This gift of God's grace is available to all, but only faith enables the person to obtain the gift.

17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.Romans 5:17-18


Faith is the static link to God's gift of grace.


No faith - No gift of Grace



Grace - Strong's Number: 5485 - Charis

Definition

1. grace
   1. that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2. good will, loving-kindness, favour
   1. of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3. what is due to grace
   1. the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
   2. the token or proof of grace, benefit
      1. a gift of grace
      2. benefit, bounty
4. thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Gift - Strong's Number: 5486 - Charisma -- ... grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers

Definition

1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2. the gift of divine grace
3. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
4. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
5. grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit

[Grace] Charisma is a derivative of Charis

Gift - Charisma - Charis - Grace


God's grace is a gift to us.

God's Grace is obtained by faith.

God's grace continues as long as faith continues...

Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25

The eternal life that we obtained by faith through grace, at the beginning, must continue to abide in us, and if it does we also will abide in the Son and the Father.

But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Galatians 3:22



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Eph 4:30~~New American Standard Bible
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

How does this answer the question if one can lose the seal???? That's what we're debating.

'Seal' does NOT by definition mean 'not able to be un-sealed'. If that's true I can give up my afternoon plans to finish off the leftover Lasagna in the refrigerator. Tupperware is awesome, but not that awesome.
[Edited for trolling]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It really doesn't matter. If it is, it falls under Rom 11:29 and is irrevocable. The misunderstanding of Matt 18 on your part has no bearing on truth. As another poster pointed out, the parable shows that the man didn't have his forgiveness revoked. Rather, he was charged with the NEW SIN of unforgiveness of a fellow servant.

Oh, but you didn't read careful enough:

" 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. " (Matthew 18:32-34 NASB)

No new debt here. In the parable, what new, different debt did the servant incur with the Master?
Of course, I'm guessing your doctrine will invent a way for it to not mean what it so plainly says. It's amazing--utterly amazing--how many scriptures a person has to take in OSAS doctrine and say, "oh, it doesn't really mean what it says". No, not amazing. It's SCARY! I'm pretty sure we're going to hear that again. Hang on, folks.

Since no one has yet shown that Paul didn't include ANYTHING that isn't irrevocable, it isn't impossible for Paul to have even included forgiveness as being an irrevocable gift in 11:29.

Why you think Paul didn't include justification or eternal life in 11:29 is baffling to me.

Why? Because eternal life is the result of our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins, a gift of God, a gift which Jesus said is revocable in the kingdom. I know it's not fun finding out that what you've believed and have devoted your whole spiritual life to is not true, but we have to be honest here and boldly and fearlessly acknowledge that the Bible does say one's forgiveness will be revoked by the Father if we treat it with contempt, trampling on it. That single truth tears the ground out from any contention that a salvation that is based on forgiveness of sins can't be taken away because forgiveness is a free, unmerited gift given to a person. That don't work because forgiveness is a revocable gift in the kingdom of God. Jesus plainly said so.

Add to that, we see the sanctified person who does that--tramples on the forgiveness of God in the blood of Christ--coming under the Judgment in Hebrews 10:29-30 NASB that Jesus said those who presently believe, not those who don't believe are not subject to (John 5:24 NASB). Their unbelief bringing them into the Judgment that only believing saves one from.

 

[JLB]

I'm pretty sure we're going to hear

I can think of something that those who disregard what the scriptures so plainly and clearly say, will hear on the Day of Judgement...

Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink...inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."Matthew 25:41-42,46.


I'm sure there will be some, who continue to argue with the Lord Jesus, on that day, saying.... but Lord your word says that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable... according to Romans 11:29.

Then He will say to those on His left hand who are still arguing with Him... Where in Romans 11:29 do you find the words eternal life?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Nor do they understand what "by faith through grace" means.
The way grace is appropriated is by faith.

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:1-2
Stop having faith in Christ, and you stop appropriating the grace in which you are empowered to stand.

Yes, this is correct. The child of God does move out from under God's grace provision and is under God's hand of discipline, which has all been thoroughly explained. Disobedient children move from God's grace to His discipline, which ain't pretty. But there are no verses that tell us that God removes salvation from any of His children.

The gift that God's gives us is received by faith, that is the only way it is obtained, by faith.

This gift of God's grace is available to all, but only faith enables the person to obtain the gift.

And God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. It couldn't be any more clear.

Grace - Strong's Number: 5485 - Charis
Definition

1. grace
   1. that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2. good will, loving-kindness, favour
   1. of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3. what is due to grace
   1. the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
   2. the token or proof of grace, benefit
      1. a gift of grace
      2. benefit, bounty
4. thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Gift - Strong's Number: 5486 - Charisma -- ... grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers

Definition

1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2. the gift of divine grace
3. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
4. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
5. grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit

[Grace] Charisma is a derivative of Charis
Gift - Charisma - Charis - Grace
God's grace is a gift to us.
God's Grace is obtained by faith.

And God's charisma are irrevocable.

God's grace continues as long as faith continues…

And there is no verse that says that salvation continues as long as faith continues. That's the big hole in your theory.

Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25

There is nothing in these verses that says that one can lose their salvation.

The eternal life that we obtained by faith through grace, at the beginning, must continue to abide in us, and if it does we also will abide in the Son and the Father.

There isn't anything about "must continue to abide in us" in these verses. Please review them.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eph 4:30~~New American Standard Bible
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

How does this answer the question if one can lose the seal???? That's what we're debating.

There is NO debate on whether the Holy Spirit as a seal can be broken. I've asked many times for any verse that teaches that any believer can lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and none has been provided.

'Seal' does NOT by definition mean 'not able to be un-sealed'.

This isn't even in debate. It's not about the word. It's about the actual seal, in this case, the Holy Spirit Himself. He cannot be broken. There are no verses that says He can.

[Edited reference to deleted comments.]

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh, but you didn't read careful enough:

" 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. " (Matthew 18:32-34 NASB)
No new debt here.

I read it just fine. It was because of his own unforgiveness on a fellow servant that he had to repay all that was owed him. Anyway, doesn't matter, as the other poster thoroughly refuted your misuse of this passage.

That don't work because forgiveness is a revocable gift in the kingdom of God. Jesus plainly said so.

Since Paul NEVER mention forgiveness a a gift in the context of Romans, this is irrelevant to the discussion. What IS totally relevant is what Paul himself defined as God's gift in Romans; spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life. Those are irrevocable because Paul himself never excluded them.

Those who claim Paul had excluded them or wasn't referring to them are only kidding themselves.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where in Romans 11:29 do you find the words eternal life?
JLB

The question is just a smokescreen because the context for Rom 11:29 is HOW Paul himself defined what he himself meant by the word 'gift of God', which he did in 1:11 (spiritual gifts), 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 (justification), andd 6:23 (eternal life). It is these ONLY that Paul was referring to when he penned 11:29.

We know that because he never added a modifier or qualifier to 11:29.

Until someone shows where Paul did add a qualifier to Rom 11:29, you have no point at all.

 

[JLB]

The question is just a smokescreen because the context for Rom 11:29 is HOW Paul himself defined what he himself meant by the word 'gift of God', which he did in 1:11 (spiritual gifts), 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 (justification), andd 6:23 (eternal life). It is these ONLY that Paul was referring to when he penned 11:29.

We know that because he never added a modifier or qualifier to 11:29.

Until someone shows where Paul did add a qualifier to Rom 11:29, you have no point at all.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Eternal Life does not appear in this verse.

It is a presumption to say it does, which is what the OSAS doctrine is built upon: the shifting sands of man's presumption.


JLB

 

[JLB]

And there is no verse that says that salvation continues as long as faith continues. That's the big hole in your theory

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

We are reconciled to God if we continue in the faith, and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free from false teaching and false doctrine.


...if what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
1 John 2:24

There's the condition.


24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
1 John 2:24-26

Eternal life is promised to those who have faith in Christ, and continue to have faith steadfast unto the end.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since Paul NEVER mention forgiveness a a gift in the context of Romans, this is irrelevant to the discussion.

He did mention forgiveness as a gift in the context of Romans. Let me refresh your memory:

"24 being justified as a gift...through the redemption (the forgiveness of sins--see below) which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

" redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:14 NASB)

What IS totally relevant is what Paul himself defined as God's gift in Romans; spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life. Those are irrevocable because Paul himself never excluded them.

Until you can prove that forgiveness is an irrevocable gift in the kingdom of God--in direct contradiction to Jesus--it's impossible for justification through the forgiveness of sins to be included in the calling and gifts to Israel that Paul says are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Eternal Life does not appear in this verse.

This is totally irrelevant.

The context for what Paul meant by 'gift' in 11:29 is found where Paul clearly defined what he meant by 'gift' earlier in Romans. And so, there is no presumption or assumption at all about what Paul meant in 11:29 and what gifts of God are irreevocable.

Paul only used the word for 'gift', or "charisma" for 3 gifts:
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24 an 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23.

These 3 things are what Paul meant when he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. There is no other contexual evidence suggesting anything else. And no one has shown anything else was being referred to.

The presumption is on the side of the conditional security folk to think Paul wasn't referring to eternal life.

The contextual link between Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 is direct.

It is a presumption to say it does, which is what the OSAS doctrine is built upon: the shifting sands of man's presumption.JLB

If someone can show evidence that Paul was not referring to justification and eternal life when he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable, where is it?

Pulling in Matt 18 is just a desperate attempt to shift away from the fact that it is eternal life and justification that are gifts of God that are irrevocable.

Paul defined what he meant by 'gift'. It is presumptuous to claim that the 3 things he previously noted as gifts weren't what he was referring to. Or even worse than presumption.