Faith without works........is Faith.

[Kenny_ms]

Even if it seems redundant please post or re-post the scripture being discussed..

Thanks Kenny_ms,

Your welcome and thank you for your patience.

 

[Kenny_ms]

I pity the person who teaches others that they can sin willfully and wantonly, even denying Christ who saved them, and they will still be saved on the Day of Wrath. The believer who takes that doctrine to heart and does just what they were taught (sins willfully, denying Christ) will be destroyed, and so will the person who taught it to them.

And this issue is just that serious.

 

[FreeGrace]

So you believe a lying cheating person goes to heaven... in spite of The Revelation 21:8 .. Thanks that clears up a lot for me…

I wished you'd commented on the fact that Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

In that line of thinking .. Christian Joe could be doing all the above drop dead.. defy the above scripture and be in heaven..

All because of God's grace and His gifts being irrevocable. Why does that bother some so much?

Where does the Bible say that if any of God's children "defy Scripture" and He will kill their ETERNAL life? It doesn't. Simple as that.

I have gone back and forth over this topic for years and years ... I am coming to a conclusion.

I do hope any conclusion will be based strictly on what Scripture says, not one's "heart" or emotions.

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe that being an *habitual* liar can most definitely lose ones salvation.

My interest is only on what Scripture says about our salvation; not the opinions of others. If there a verse that convinces one about losing salvation over *habitual* lying? Not even Rev 21:8 says that.

And, please don't forget, eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23, and God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

As you know, there are those of us that believe one can, as a lifestyle and without concern commit those sins and head straight to Hell because of it.

I'm quite aware of those who believe that. So, what Scripture contradicts itself to support that idea? Remember, eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable.

I mean that's what the verse says after all, if not, what do you think it means to "have a part in the lake of fire" as mentioned in Rev 21:8 ?

The key in that verse is the word "unbelieving". That's what gets one thrown into the lake of fire. Because one obtains eternal life through faith. Those who have received eternal life cannot have it revoked.

 

[Kenny_ms]

I wished you'd commented on the fact that Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable

Do you think God gives the gift of eternal life to just anyone? Or are there conditions?

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus refutes your premise that all believers are saved as soon as they believe.

This forum REQUIRES one to cite Scripture when making a claim. I see no verse to support your claim.

In fact, Jesus REFUTES your claim that He didn't teach that one HAVE eternal life WHEN they believe.

John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Very clear; believes…HAS eternal life.

He also said this: “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” Jn 6:40

Jesus said not all believers shall enter the kingdom, only those who do the will of the Father. Mt. 7:21

He never described any of that crowd as believers. In fact, that's what they never did; believe in Him for eternal life.

If they had, their eternal life cannot be revoked per Rom 6:23 and 11:29.

As a promise it is irrevocable.

What does this mean? Of course it is a promise. And God never breaks His promise. Irrevocable means exactly that.

Why do you think Paul quoted the Scripture regarding the covenant God made with Jacob and his descendants? God will take away the sins of Jacob. Ro. 11:26,27 So Paul is saying the covenant and therefore the promise of eternal life has not been revoked. So the covenant God made with Jacob/Israel still stands.

And through all that, eternal life is irrevocable. Period.

No. Non believers would never call him Lord. Only believers call him Lord.

Another dogmatic statement yet without any Scripture. There are many religious people today who easily call Him Lord yet reject the idea that He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.

What does this mean? Who views him as Lord and not as Saviour?

The crowd in Matt 7:21-23.

btw, when that day occurs in Matt 7:21, ALL will call Him Lord, because all unbelievers will be before the Great White Throne and everyone will clearly understand who is in charge.

In fact, the Bible says that "every knee will bow" before Him. Isa 45:23 and Phil 2:10.

 

[Malachi]

Do you think God gives the gift of eternal life to just anyone? Or are there conditions?

All those who repent and believe the Gospel receive the gift of eternal life, and once that gift is given it is not taken back (Rom 6:23).

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you think God gives the gift of eternal life to just anyone? Or are there conditions?

Absolutely there is a condition; believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, per Acts 16:31. John 5:24, 6:40, 6:47, 11:25-27, 20:31.

Everyone who believes receives the gift. John 3:15,16.

 

[WIP]

Absolutely there is a condition; believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, per Acts 16:31. John 5:24, 6:40, 6:47, 11:25-27, 20:31.

Everyone who believes receives the gift. John 3:15,16.

Even those that believe for a moment but then succumb to the flesh? Just asking.

 

[reba]

I wished you'd commented on the fact that Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).


All because of God's grace and His gifts being irrevocable. Why does that bother some so much?

Where does the Bible say that if any of God's children "defy Scripture" and He will kill their ETERNAL life? It doesn't. Simple as that.


I do hope any conclusion will be based strictly on what Scripture says, not one's "heart" or emotions.

The scripture says
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Kenny_ms]

My interest is only on what Scripture says about our salvation; not the opinions of others.

Then I repeat:

Rev 21:7 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The key in that verse is the word "unbelieving".

The key is not "unbelieving". I think you are pulling the word out of context. Unbelieving is one of the offenses and is mentioned along with several other things. IOW, we can say we are a believer but the verse is clear, if we do those other things, the outcome will not be good. The verse doesn't say, if we are a believer and do those things, you'll be fine....go for it.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Absolutely there is a condition; believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, per

What exactly do you think to "believe" means, to just *say* I believe? I'd say, among other things, it means to love Jesus, wouldn't you agree? so:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[reba]

Often we read the covenant between God and Abraham as being unconditional.. IMO that is not what i read in the Scriptures.

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
God does not break His side of a His Covenant...

 

[reba]

For years i have been reading this battle.. The conclusion i have come too.
We are more saved then i was taught growing.. Sorta as in there is a difference between a slip and setting out to sin
But we can walk away from Him... As did the Children of Israel ...
Heb_13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Rev 21:7 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
some place between is a balance

 

[Deborah13]

The conclusion i have come too.

I think my conclusion, right now, is similar to your's.

We are more saved then i was taught growing.

We are more saved than I was taught in the AoG.

Sorta as in there is a difference between a slip and setting out to sin

We may differ here a little. I believe that only by the Greek definition of 'willful' sin, does one give up their salvation.
Per Hebrews 10:26
Otherwise, God will get us straightened out, just as He did David who was overcome by temptations.
If one was taught a mixture of law and grace, they can be very confused and the Lord is faithful to straighten those things out as well.

But we can walk away from Him... As did the Children of Israel ...

I believe we can reject it, just as an unbeliever has rejected it. (speaking of the Gospel) Hebrews 6:4-6

unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,

This is what I see...
Believers are not these people described.
These people are doing what they are doing for the purpose of harming others. That is a choice they have made. They choose to ignore thou shall love thy neighbor.

 

[Malachi]

Even those that believe for a moment but then succumb to the flesh? Just asking.

That's not what Scripture talks about. There must be (1) genuine repentance (turning away from sins and idols), (2) genuine believing on Christ and His finished work of redemption, and (3) genuine receiving Him as Lord and Savior. This produces the New Birth, so it is never a momentary, fleeting whim. Furthermore those who are truly saved are also commanded to be baptized as believers. That means they also "walk in newness of life" (Rom 6:4).

As to "succumbing to the flesh", genuine Christians can and do succumb to the flesh, and must repent and confess their sins daily. But that does not change their position in Christ -- they remain eternally children of God (Jn 1:12,13). Sin in the believer affects his fellowship with God (1 Jn 1:1-2:4). But eternal life is a free gift of God's grace (Rom 6:23).

Simon the Sorcerer "believed" but did not really believe (Acts 8:9-24). He was a false professor, and there can be many false professors. That is an entirely different matter. There will be those who say "Lord, Lord" but they do not "know" Christ and He does not "know" them.

 

[Deborah13]

Furthermore those who are truly saved are also commanded to be baptized as believers. That means they also "walk in newness of life" (Rom 6:4).

Water baptism is an outward declaration of what one professes has happened in their spirit.
Adam Clarke's Commentary on Romans 6:4
"To be baptized into Christ, is to receive the doctrine of Christ crucified, and to receive baptism as a proof of the genuineness of that faith, and the obligation to live according to its precepts."

must repent and confess their sins daily

Do you have a scripture about daily confession of sin?

There will be those who say "Lord, Lord" but they do not "know" Christ and He does not "know" them.

Agreed.

 

[reba]

We are more saved than I was taught in the AoG.

We grew up in the same place ...

Yikes i need a supportive scripture..

Psa_71:5 For thou art my hope, O Lord GOD: thou art my trust from my youth.

 

[FreeGrace]

Even those that believe for a moment but then succumb to the flesh? Just asking.

We all succumb to the flesh in various amounts, degrees, and such. But Romans has been crystal clear: eternal life is a gift of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable.

I believe all Scripture must be understood through what Paul clearly communicated.

 

[FreeGrace]

The scripture says
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Is this a suggestion that Scripture contradicts itself? I know that eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable, so everything else must be understood in light of what Paul so clearly communicated.

The key to Rev 21:8 is "unbelieving". It's those who never received the free gift of eternal life.