Faith without works........is Faith.

[AmbassadorofChrist]

2 Time 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

This is where rightly dividing the word of truth helps. If you do not rightly divide the word of truth, well, you will be ashamed.

The book of Hebrews, is talking to the Hebrews/Jews, regardless if titles are inspired or not, the context is clear.

Now why is this important? Because the Jews are under remission of sins, not forgiveness. They must endure to the end to receive forgiveness.

Acts 2:47 - Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The context is speaking of Israel, and they SHOULD be saved, meaning they are not saved quite yet. They must endure to the end.

Acts 3:19 - Repent ye, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The context is speaking to Israel, and their sins are not blotted out until Christ 2nd coming when he sets up the Kingdom.

1 Peter 1:10 - Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the Grace that should come unto you:

Israel is waiting for grace, We have it now.

1 Peter 1:13 - Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Waiting here too.

These are just a few verses. So when it comes to the book of Hebrews, the Jews who have received Holy Ghost can, back slide. They will need much exhortation do to the time that they will one day go through.

We find examples of this in Acts 5. Also Paul who was Saul at the time according to Acts 26: 11 compelled some of the believing remnant to blaspheme, which according to Matthew 12: 31-32 shall not be forgiven. But wait, where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. These blasphemers could very well be saved!!! Dont know if they were or not, but they could. Is Matthew 12: 31-32 false? God forbid.

Matthew 12: 31-32 - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world. neither in the world to come.

Now lets take a look at Paul. 1 Tim 1:13 - Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Here we have Paul calling himself a blasphemer. We see in Acts 7, Stephen being filled with Holy Ghost and speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost was stoned and Paul was there rejecting and consenting unto Stephens death. This is a recorded event of Paul blaspheming the Holy Ghost and according to Matthew 12, Paul should be not forgiven, but he was...why?

Well in Matthew 12:32 we see "neither in this world, neither in the world to come" so the only logical conclusion is that this world, or age, or time that Paul was saved is not "neither in this world, neither in the world to come" but a whole separate world altogether, a world never prophesied about, a world that if the princes of this world new about, they would have never crucified the Lord of Glory(1 Cor 2:8).

Though "losing salvation" may not be foreign in the bible, It is foreign in Paul's(the apostle to the gentiles) writings. Through Paul we learn How that Christ died for our sins, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, and who ever believes is imputed with the very righteousness of God, receiving the forgiveness of sins, sins not be imputed to us(Roms 4 6-8), being baptized by the Spirit into Christ being made partakers of his death, burial and resurrection(Roms 6 1-5, Col 2:12). You see, we have already died, and we have already been risen with Christ and seated in heavenly places(Eph 2-6). You cannot undo what has already been done.

According to Romans 5, I and every other justified person is at peace with God, reconciled to God, and permantly at one with God, and nothing can change that, even if we are deceived and fall into unbelief. Because it is not our faith that keeps us saved, but the faith of Christ

Roms 3:22 - Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal 2:16 -Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faithofChrist, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The phrase "fell away" refers back to "believe for a while". There is nothing here to ASSUME that Jesus meant lost their salvation. To fall away from the faith means to no longer believe what was once believed."

So, now we don't even need to believe in order to be saved?

I have no idea where your question comes from. Of course one needs to believe in Christ to be saved. The point remains: once a person believes, they are given eternal life (Jn 3:15,16,5:24, 6:40, 20:31), which is irrevocable (Rom 6:23, 11:29).

 

[FreeGrace]

FG, can a definite, no doubt about it, saved, born again Christian become and Atheist and not lose their salvation?

Eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23. I believe that.
God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. I believe that.

Do you believe that eternal life is a gift of God?
Do you believe that God's gifts are irrevocable?

Can a saved person quite believing? Jesus said so in Luke 8:13.

Now, put all this together and the answer is amazingly simple: yes.

Now for the hard part; why?

Because of God's grace. He saves us by grace (Eph 2:8). That means we don't deserve our salvation. By that same token, we CAN'T deserve loss of that same salvation. That is grace too.

The problem for the conditional security folk is that they strongly believe that loss of salvation is deserved. Therefore, they demonstrate their total lack of understanding of God's grace, which is much bigger than any sin imaginable.

There are no verses that teach that He takes eternal life from anyone. In fact, as already pointed out, eternal life is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Did he not destroy those who did not believe? 'Now I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe'. Jude 1:5

Referring to physical death.

Luke 8:18
Take heed then how you hear; for to him who has will more be given, and from him who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away.”

Perhaps the words of eternal life. Do ya think?

Yes, I think all the time. And no, eternal life cannot be taken away, because eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) an God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

If they fall into unbelief then the words of eternal life are taken away which means they wither and die as a branch that doesn't get water withers and dies.

Please share any verse that actually says sthat eternal life can be or has been taken away from anyone.

I've already shared that eternal life is irrevocable.

Regardless of how you define gift, the fact is Paul was taking about his countrymen and the gifts they were promised. No doubt the gifts of the Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:12-9, 1 Cor. 14:1 Eternal life, however, is in Christ Jesus as Romans 6:23 says.

Recall that I'm not the one who defines "gifts". Paul did that before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Yes, spiritual gifts were note in Rom 1:11. Also, justification was defined as a gift in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. And eternal life wa defined as a gift in Rom 6:23.

So there is no reason to deny eternal life as a gift that is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

What's clear is Paul didn't mention eternal life in Romans 11:29.

Why does this keep coming up? Paul had ALREADY DEFINED what he meant by gift in Rom 1:11 (spiritual gifts), 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 (justification) and 6:23 (eternal life). So your statement is bogus. Since Paul defined 3 gifts, we KNOW what he meant when he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable: spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life.

What is quite odd, however, is your "issue" with the words "eternal life" not being mentioned in Rom 11:29. In fact, Paul had already defined what he meant by gift, so there was no reason for Paul to repeat what he meant. We have already been given his definition for 'gifts'.

And, there isn't any verse that says that one can lose salvation, and NONE of the warning passages even mentions salvation or eternal life. So why believe that salvation can be lost when the Bible NEVER says so?

Your views are quite inconsistent.

What he did explain in Romans 11, is many Jews were broken off because of unbelief, and Paul's warns us as well, that if we fall into unbelief, we are in danger of being broken off as well.

None of this has anything to do with gifts. Other than v.29, where would one find the word 'gift' in ch 11? Or, after 6:23?

So it is impossible for gifts, plural, to mean eternal life in Romans 11:29, since it is some were broken off.

Paul defined what he meant by gifts. Neither of us has the right or authority to second guess Paul and claim anything else about the gifts he already defined for us.

 

[FreeGrace]

This being true, that the destroying of the temple of God is a spiritual destruction, not the murdering of God's people, I ask you again, if your doctrine does not destroy the temple of God, what doctrine does?

I've already answered your question. Whether liked or not is not the issue. Context is always key.

 

[Kenny_ms]

I have no idea where your question comes from. Of course one needs to believe in Christ to be saved. The point remains: once a person believes, they are given eternal life (Jn 3:15,16,5:24, 6:40, 20:31), which is irrevocable

And then they can stop believing as in an Atheist and still be saved, correct? So in that sense, they don't need to believe in Jesus?

Forgive me for all the questions in trying to get this right, it's just all so fascinating and new to me, I'm having a tough time with it and the questions keep popping into my head.

 

[AmbassadorofChrist]

And then they can stop believing as in an Atheist and still be saved, correct? So in that sense, they don't need to believe in Jesus?

Forgive me for all the questions in trying to get this right, it's just all so fascinating and new to me, I'm having a tough time with it and the questions keep popping into my head.

Sure. Whats the difference between, be tween a justified person who was decieved and fell in unbelief and a so called "atheist"?

The justified person who was deceived, was forgiven of all sin, died with Christ, buried with Christ and raised with Christ and seated in heavenly places with Christ.

The so called atheist is still dead in his trespasses and sins. And yes, this person is deceived as well.

One thing that needs to get straight is, that we believe/trust death burial and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as the all sufficient payment for the debt and penalty of our sins and we receive the faith of Christ.

Romans 3:22 - Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.

Gal 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:22 - But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Christ might be given to them that believe.

It is not our faith that keeps us justified, it is the faith of Christ.

2 Timothy 2:13 - If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Gal 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Not being justified by the law has nothing to do with this and as I see it, no need to even throw that into the mix. We can't win our salvation by keeping the law, that's a given, however we can lose it with habitual sin, two different things altogether. Of course that's just my opinion now, I may eventually come around. See I was thinking about smoking/selling pot again... was afraid I'd lose my salvation but If I stick around here long enough and learn enough of whats really true and I cannot lose my salvation, well, why not? I really do need the money.

And why do we need to even have faith in Jesus as you mention in Gal 2:16? Just as long as I had faith at one time, I can now toss all that and still get to heaven. This completely uncomplicated the whole deal and never in my life have I actually "felt" so enlightened. God is so much easier to work with and so much kinder than I once thought...a real eye opener to say the least.

I was participating in, just to name a couple, a thread about Tithing and one on the Sabbath, you know, people trying to get answers as to what they should be doing to please God, but this breakthrough changes all that, no need to concern ourselves with half of what's being discussed on this whole board now, if that much, it's a done deal so why worry?

I need a little time to try and absorb this as it goes against everything I was ever taught but, it's certainly going to make my life easier.

This changes everything! Hallelujah!

 

[FreeGrace]

And then they can stop believing as in an Atheist and still be saved, correct? So in that sense, they don't need to believe in Jesus?

This was my answer: "I have no idea where your question comes from. Of course one needs to believe in Christ to be saved. The point remains: once a person believes, they are given eternal life (Jn 3:15,16,5:24, 6:40, 20:31), which is irrevocable"

One either believes what the Bible says, or not. I do believe what the Bible says.

Forgive me for all the questions in trying to get this right, it's just all so fascinating and new to me, I'm having a tough time with it and the questions keep popping into my head.

There are many passages that clearly indicate that one is saved forever. There are none that teach that salvation can be lost. And I believe Paul nailed it as clearly as possible in Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29. I don't see any way around it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Not being justified by the law has nothing to do with this and as I see it, no need to even throw that into the mix. We can't win our salvation by keeping the law, that's a given, however we can lose it with habitual sin, two different things altogether

What passage makes that so clear; that we can lose our salvation with habitual sin? Since Jesus Christ died for ALL sin, how can that be possible; that "habitual sin" causes us to lose our salvation? He died for all sin, so sin cannot be the problem ever.

Just as we are saved totally by grace, meaning there isn't anything we can to do earn or deserve our salvation, there isn't anything the saved person can do to earn or deserve losing their salvation. And there are no verses that teach that.

Of course that's just my opinion now, I may eventually come around. See I was thinking about smoking/selling pot again... was afraid I'd lose my salvation but If I stick around here long enough and learn enough of whats really true and I cannot lose my salvation, well, why not? I really do need the money.

The "justified ones" are supposed to "live by faith", per Hab 2:4, Rom 1:7 and Gal 3:11. Those who don't will face God's hand of discipline, which i guarantee won't be easy or pretty. Check out 1 Cor 11:30 for the kinds of things God may do to those children of His who think that they will "get away" with anything.

Oh, and don't forget to check out the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5, and what happened to him: he was turned over to Satan for the 'destruction of the flesh". Not my idea of a good time.

And why do we need to even have faith in Jesus as you mention in Gal 2:16? Just as long as I had faith at one time, I can now toss all that and still get to heaven.

Well, since eternal life is irrevocable, yes, you will. But the journey through this life won't be much fun, according to the Bible.

This completely uncomplicated the whole deal and never in my life have I actually "felt" so enlightened. God is so much easier to work with and so much kinder than I once thought...a real eye opener to say the least.

Kinder, huh. I recommend Heb 10:30,31 - 30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I hope this passage will be the real eye opener.

 

[Kenny_ms]

. Of course one needs to believe in Christ to be saved.

Why? if we can't lose out salvation once obtained, I see no reason we can't stop believing in Christ? Or are you saying we can lose our Salvation by not believing in Christ?

There are none that teach that salvation can be lost.

Not if you refuse to see them. the Prodigal Son was one that was safe/saved, then lost then saved again...the father was happy to let him come back home but until he came back home, he was lost. The lost Sheep? same thing. Then the verse you should know by heart now, but that's right you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, the unrighteous fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, and abusers of themselves with mankind WILL see the kingdom of God. That is as long as they were saved before they started living that lifestyle.

There are so many verses that say it if you want to hear it and some of them even seem to have seen you coming, hence the "Be not deceived" part as in 1 Corinthians 6:9, the verse with all the bads I listed in the prior paragraph.

 

[Kenny_ms]

What passage makes that so clear; that we can lose our salvation with habitual sin?

Covered that in my last post.

I hope this passage will be the real eye opener.

I read the rest of your post and didn't comment because it didn't seem relevant. The only things my eyes are open to is the fact yours are tightly closed in my view and I'm not sure anyone here can help you with that. Maybe prayer would be better spent time at this point.

 

[AmbassadorofChrist]

Why? if we can't lose out salvation once obtained, I see no reason we can't stop believing in Christ? Or are you saying we can lose our Salvation by not believing in Christ?



Not if you refuse to see them. the Prodigal Son was one that was safe/saved, then lost then saved again...the father was happy to let him come back home but until he came back home, he was lost. The lost Sheep? same thing. Then the verse you should know by heart now, but that's right you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, the unrighteous fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, and abusers of themselves with mankind WILL see the kingdom of God. That is as long as they were saved before they started living that lifestyle.

There are so many verses that say it if you want to hear it and some of them even seem to have seen you coming, hence the "Be not deceived" part as in 1 Corinthians 6:9, the verse with all the bads I listed in the prior paragraph.

Why are you stoping at verse 9? What about verse 10? Oh and lets not forget about verse 11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justfied in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Absolutely nothing about loosing salvation. My righteousness is as filthy rags, I am mad righteous because of Jesus Christ and there is nothing that I can add to what is already perfect.

Many of you are stuck at salvation and will miss the even bigger picture that our Father has in store for as adopted sons and daughter who are to labour with our Father in his business. There is wisdom behind how God has set up our salvation, and why he has made it such.

 

[MarkT]

Referring to physical death.

Yes, I think all the time. And no, eternal life cannot be taken away, because eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) an God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).


Please share any verse that actually says sthat eternal life can be or has been taken away from anyone.

I've already shared that eternal life is irrevocable.


Recall that I'm not the one who defines "gifts". Paul did that before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Yes, spiritual gifts were note in Rom 1:11. Also, justification was defined as a gift in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. And eternal life wa defined as a gift in Rom 6:23.

So there is no reason to deny eternal life as a gift that is irrevocable.

What if the gift is spurned? Then what?
Hebrews 10:29
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

What if instead of entering by the narrow gate, the man enters by the wide gate that leads to destruction? Mt. 7:13-14 What happens to this man?

 

[Kenny_ms]

Why are you stoping at verse 9? What about verse 10? Oh and lets not forget about verse 11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justfied in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Absolutely nothing about loosing salvation.

Why don't you answer the question?

There is absolutely nothing about losing salvation in several verses in the Bible. so?

Many of you are stuck at salvation and will miss the even bigger picture that our Father has in store for as adopted sons and daughter who are to labour with our Father in his business.

One subject at a time.

I finally gave in and am on a Netflix, The Walking Dead marathon, this verse came up just now on the show, and though it's probably been mentioned before, as have many over and over again, I thought it worth mentioning.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

But, what I'm getting here is, once saved the "good" is no longer a necessity for the resurrection of life, and we can do evil and damnation can't touch us, right? Making that verse a complete lie and something we should probably take our magic marker to?

 

[AmbassadorofChrist]

Why don't you answer the question?

There is absolutely nothing about losing salvation in several verses in the Bible. so?



One subject at a time.

I finally gave in and am on a Netflix, The Walking Dead marathon, this verse came up just now on the show, and though it's probably been mentioned before, as have many over and over again, I thought it worth mentioning.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

But, what I'm getting here is, once saved the "good" is no longer a necessity for the resurrection of life, and we can do evil and damnation can't touch us, right? Making that verse a complete lie and something we should probably take our magic marker to?

Could you explain this verse to me please.

2 Tim 2:15 -Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If we study the bible the way we should, rightly divided, you will see yourself that no magic markers are needed.

 

[Kenny_ms]

What if instead of entering by the narrow gate, the man enters by the wide gate that leads to destruction?

As long as one has been previously saved, I think the answer to that will be the wide gate has just become another route to Heaven? Isn't that how it works now?

 

[Kenny_ms]

If we study the bible the way we should, rightly divided, you will see yourself that no magic markers are needed.

Sometimes sarcasm is a necessary tool as I see it anyway.

Can you please tell me if I rightly divided John 5:29?

 

[AmbassadorofChrist]

Sometimes sarcasm is a necessary tool as I see it anyway.

Can you please tell me if I rightly divided John 5:29?

No you have not.