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Kenny_ms
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Can I get just a tad more detail of your take on my analogy of the verse?
Might as well touch on my take on Mt. 7:13-14 too, please?
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- Thread starter Kidron
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Can I get just a tad more detail of your take on my analogy of the verse?
Might as well touch on my take on Mt. 7:13-14 too, please?
I have already established the irrefutable fact the eternal life does not appear in Romans 11:29.
There is zero scriptures that support OSAS, while there are many that warn Christians of not inheriting the kingdom of God, or of losing the reconciliation they have with God, or of ending up not being a partakers of Christ, all of which are clear references to our salvation.
JLB
Did he not destroy those who did not believe? 'Now I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe'. Jude 1:5
He destroyed those who did not believe.
God gives gifts to those who seek him. Romans 7:7-11 So his gifts are for those who seek him.
Ro.11:29 does not say eternal life can not be taken away. Ro. 11:29 follows Paul's question regarding his people and the covenant God made with them. He asks about his people. 'I ask, then has God rejected his people? By no means! Ro. 11:1 Have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! Ro. 11:11 Then Paul makes it clear that 'the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable' despite their unbelief. Now I agree with you in principle that eternal life can not be taken away from those who receive it. I'm just saying this line in Paul's letter is not saying it.
The words Jesus gave us are spirit and life. John 6:63 If a man does not understand them, then Satan snatches them away. Mrk. 4:15 So the man falls into unbelief. The last state of that man becomes worse than the first. Mt. 12:45 But the point is eternal life is in the words Jesus gave us. Peter said, You have the 'words of eternal life'. John 6:68
Can words be taken away? In a spiritual sense, yes. True words can be rejected. False words can be accepted which take away the words that are true. People will believe all kinds of things, except the truth. But we know him who said, 'All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing twisted or crooked in them'. Pr. 8:8
He destroyed those who did not believe.
God gives gifts to those who seek him. Romans 7:7-11 So his gifts are for those who seek him.
Ro.11:29 does not say eternal life can not be taken away. Ro. 11:29 follows Paul's question regarding his people and the covenant God made with them. He asks about his people. 'I ask, then has God rejected his people? By no means! Ro. 11:1 Have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! Ro. 11:11 Then Paul makes it clear that 'the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable' despite their unbelief. Now I agree with you in principle that eternal life can not be taken away from those who receive it. I'm just saying this line in Paul's letter is not saying it.
The words Jesus gave us are spirit and life. John 6:63 If a man does not understand them, then Satan snatches them away. Mrk. 4:15 So the man falls into unbelief. The last state of that man becomes worse than the first. Mt. 12:45 But the point is eternal life is in the words Jesus gave us. Peter said, You have the 'words of eternal life'. John 6:68
Can words be taken away? In a spiritual sense, yes. True words can be rejected. False words can be accepted which take away the words that are true. People will believe all kinds of things, except the truth. But we know him who said, 'All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing twisted or crooked in them'. Pr. 8:8
AmbassadorofChrist
Member
I'd like to ask, In Matthew 12: 31-32 - Jesus says that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven in this world or the world to come. Paul blasphemed the Holy Ghost and was forgiven. Why do you think that is? Was Christ mistaken?
I said this:
"Of course one needs to believe in Christ to be saved."
"Of course one needs to believe in Christ to be saved."
Because the Bible SAYS so. Where is any verse that says that we can lose our salvation? There are none
Of course a believer may stop believing. Jesus indicated such in Luke 8:13, but no where does Scripture teach that those who quit believing lose salvation.
I am saying that no one can lose the gift of God (justification-Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17, eternal life-Rom 6:23, salvation-Eph 2:8) because God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
There is nothing in the parable to make that conclusion. He REMAINED a son throughout. What was lost during the parable was FELLOWSHIP with his father. And FELLOWSHIP was restored after he confessed his sin and repented.
What was lost was FELLOWSHIP with his father.
Nope.
I said this:
"What passage makes that so clear; that we can lose our salvation with habitual sin?"
"What passage makes that so clear; that we can lose our salvation with habitual sin?"
The verse you covered did not say anything about salvation being lost. Nor no other verse.
Yep. You got that one right.
I don't need help. I KNOW what Scripture SAYS. And there aren't ANY verses that SAY that salvation can be lost.
How about opening your own eyes to what Scripture actually SAYS and what it doesn't actually SAY?
Since the gift is irrevocable (Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29), it remains. However, the idiot who decided to spurn the gift (whatever that means) will face God's discipline.
Exactly! He will get "worse punishment". But, the question is: why would anyone who knows that Go's gifts are irrevocable, would even think that "worse punishment" means loss of salvation? That would be quite contradictory, right?
Jesus was clear: those who go the "wide gate" route weren't ever believers. Again, even if one who initially entered by the narrow gate (and was saved) turns around, his gift of salvation (Eph 2:8), justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,161,7) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). And this is irrefutable.
The point remains that there is absolutely nothing about losing salvation ANYWHERE in the Bible.There is absolutely nothing about losing salvation in several verses in the Bible.so?
MarkT said this:
"What if instead of entering by the narrow gate, the man enters by the wide gate that leads to destruction?"
"What if instead of entering by the narrow gate, the man enters by the wide gate that leads to destruction?"
There is only one route to heaven; through Jesus Christ. The point remains that IF one ever believed in Christ, they received the gift of eternal life (Jn 3;15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47), and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
And I have repeatedly established the irrefutable FACT that Paul DEFINED "gift" as eternal life in Rom 6:23, and the VERY NEXT TIME Paul used the word for 'gift' was in 11:29 where he stated that God's gifts are irrevocable.
What no one has come close to proving is that Paul didn't mean eternal life in Rom 11:29. Until that has been proven, normal contextual principles DEMANDS that eternal life IS in view in Rom 11:29.
This is laughable. There are zero verses that SAY that salvation can be lost. Zero. Many passages have been given that support and prove OSAS.
That's the problem. There are those who think such verses are "clear references" to our salvation. That's the ENTIRE problem. NOT ONE of those warning passages even mentions salvation.
It is ONLY an ASSUMPTION that those verses refer to salvation.
Because of this very erroneous assumption, these people have blinded themselves to the obvious truth of what Paul wrote when he DEFINED what he meant by 'gift' in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 (justification) and Rom 6:23 (eternal life).
There is NO CONTEXTUAL reason to ASSUME that Paul didn't mean "justification" or "eternal life" in Rom 11:29.
No one can prove that he meant anything else, since it was Paul who DEFINED what he meant by gift.
Neither of us have the right or authority to second guess Paul or attempt to re-define what he meant. He already told us what he meant by 'gift'.
Your view is just trying to twist Scripture to mean something it does NOT mean.
A reference to physical death. Obviously.
Please cite the specific verse that defines "gifts" in this passage. I'm not seeing it. I have shown EXACTLY where Paul did define what he meant by gift in Romans: 1:11 for spiritual gifts, 3:24, 5:15,16,17 for justification, and 6:23 for eternal life. The VERY NEXT TIME he mentioned 'gifts' was Rom 11:29 where he said that God's gifts are irrevocable.
Uh, yeah, that's exactly what "irrevocable" means. But feel free to deny reality.
This is partly right. Rom 11:29 includes the "calling of God", and yes, Israel was called. That calling is irrevocable. But just as much, since Paul ALREADY defined what he meant by 'gift' previously, in Rom 3:24 (justification) and 6:23 (eternal life), those are what Paul meant by 'gifts' in 11:29. This is irrefutable.
None of this is relevant to the FACT that God's gifts, including justification and eternal life, are irrevocable.
I agree. Also, eternal life is irrevocable according to Paul. I believe what Paul wrote and how he defined 'gifts'.
Jethro Bodine
Member
No. Ultimately, this person will face God's wrath. Just as the author of Hebrews warns:.
"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB capitals in original)
The lie is thinking that once you're a believer there's nothing you can do wrong that will subject you to the wrath of God again. The author of Hebrews makes it plain that simply is not true. You have to stay in Christ to be safe from the wrath of God. This is illustrated for us in the Passover observance in Exodus. You have to stay in the household and under the blood to be safe from the destroying angel when it comes around:
"Not one of you shall go out the door of his house until morning. When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down." (Exodus 12:22-23 NIV)
You can't go out of the house where the blood is and still have the protection of the blood. The safe place is inside the house, but so many take false comfort in thinking all they had to have done was be in the house at one time or another before the destroying angel gets here and that it doesn't matter where they're at when he gets here. They will be sorely surprised when the destroyer does get here.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Because he was ignorant when he was living in unbelief, just like everybody else that blasphemes the Holy Spirit before they are born again. If he had not turned to Christ after being called by God but instead persisted in his blasphemy, that is when he is beyond the reach of the forgiveness of God. Nobody who knows about the forgiveness of God--or even has it now--but who then rejects it over and over can have the benefit of that forgiveness they have rejected.
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..." (Hebrews 10:26 NASB)
What sacrifice for sin remains for the sin of rejecting the sacrifice for sin? None, of course.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The punishment worse than death (Moses' penalty) is the destruction of the soul as well:
28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28 NASB)
This illustrates the power of indoctrinations. An immovable, preconceived premise prevents the hearer from hearing or considering anything outside of their own doctrine, and so they don't honestly examine it. They automatically reject something because it doesn't get past the unchallenged filter of a preconceived idea. I personally came to be non-OSAS because I was open to both arguments. Truth stands up to scrutiny.
Nobody goes to a gift store and says, 'I would like to revoke this gift' when he means return it. Nobody would say, 'I revoked the gift' when he means lost it.
'Irrevocable' suggests a contract or a covenant; contracts can be revoked. Gifts can not be revoked. No one would use 'irrevocable' to say a gift can not be lost.
So Paul is referring to the covenant Romans 11:26-27 when he says, 'For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable'.
Jethro Bodine
Member
'Absolutely nothing' means there is not anything that could be even remotely understood as non-OSAS. That's just plain dishonest. If what you said is true 'absolutely nothing' would not be the legitimate source of discussion it is in the church today. Of course there is lots in the Bible that point to non-OSAS. In fact, OSAS seems to be based on it's efforts to discredit these many passages:
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless * you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)
It's scary how many passages that do in fact talk non-OSAS have to be twisted and redefined to make it so it isn't referring to salvation, or isn't referring to real believing, or doesn't really mean this or that...yada, yada, yada.... Honest people, once they see this, can not continue in that kind of Biblical interpretation.
Yep. God's discipline towards His disobedient children is wrath.
Not my view at all. As I've clearly stated. God's discipline toward His disobedient children involves His wrath.
I said this:
"He will get "worse punishment". But, the question is: why would anyone who knows that Go's gifts are irrevocable, would even think that "worse punishment" means loss of salvation?"
"He will get "worse punishment". But, the question is: why would anyone who knows that Go's gifts are irrevocable, would even think that "worse punishment" means loss of salvation?"
What kind of context puts this verse with Hebrews? This is just trying to cobble together unrelated verses to try to make a point. btw, unless one is an anhiliationist, the soul will be punished forever in hell.
I'm glad to read this, as it directly applies to the conditional security crowd. The FACT is that Paul DEFINED eternal life as a gift, and the VERY NEXT USE OF gift was in Rom 11:29 where he said that God's gifts are irrevocable. But your side flatly rejects this truth.
I see this in nearly EVERY post from your side.
lol Where are the verses that tell us plainly that salvation can be lost? There AREN'T any.
What in the world does any of this have to do with Rom 11:29. We're NOT talking about some object that can be returned, lost, etc. Scripture itself SAYS that the gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE.
One either believes this or not. Then, one either believes how Paul defined what he meant by gift or not.
The Bible DIRECTLY SAYS that the gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Please quit making up stuff. Where did Paul define anything about the covenant in Rom 11:26-27? He didn't. There is NO WAY one can truthfully claim that Paul had in mind the covenant when he wrote Rom 11:29. Why? Because he didn't define gift in any verse between 6:23 where he defined eternal life as a gift and 11:29 where he SAID that God's gifts (justification - 3:24, 5:15,16,17, and eternal life - 6:23) are irrevocable.
Your view has no ground upon which to stand.
I said this:
"The point remains that there is absolutely nothing about losing salvation ANYWHERE in the Bible."
The single Greek word for "hold fast" has NOTHING to do with your efforts of "holding on". That's just a poor translation. The Greek word is: katechō
1) to hold back, detain, retain
1a) from going away
1b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)
1b1) that which hinders, Antichrist from making hisappearance
1b2) to check a ship’s headway, i.e. to hold or head theship
1c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of
2) to get possession of, take
2b) to possess
iow, those who possess the gospel are saved. And we know that those who have believed HAVE received the gift of eternal life (1 Tim 1:16), which is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
Not the huge assumption thal salvation is being referred to, ESPECIALLY since salvation is NOT mentioned in any of the warning passages, AND the fact that eternal life is irrevocable.
"The point remains that there is absolutely nothing about losing salvation ANYWHERE in the Bible."
Fact is, my statement stands. None of the verses used by the non-OSAS camp say anything about salvation being lost. It's just a huge assumption of what is being warned about. And totally ignoring all the passages that plainly indicate that we are secure in our salvation.
There is no "legitimate discussion" of conditional security because the Bible does not teach it.
There is zero. As has been repeatedly shown but rejected.
Actually, to properly understand them, in light of Scripture telling us that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. This is irrefutable.
The single Greek word for "hold fast" has NOTHING to do with your efforts of "holding on". That's just a poor translation. The Greek word is: katechō
1) to hold back, detain, retain
1a) from going away
1b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)
1b1) that which hinders, Antichrist from making hisappearance
1b2) to check a ship’s headway, i.e. to hold or head theship
1c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of
2) to get possession of, take
2b) to possess
iow, those who possess the gospel are saved. And we know that those who have believed HAVE received the gift of eternal life (1 Tim 1:16), which is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
I've never seen such resistance to the truth that eternal life, which is a gift of God, is irrevocable. That's what should be guiding one's understanding of warning passages.
Not the huge assumption thal salvation is being referred to, ESPECIALLY since salvation is NOT mentioned in any of the warning passages, AND the fact that eternal life is irrevocable.