Faith without works........is Faith.

[FreeGrace]

I think it may be better to consider with your heart what it means to "believe in Jesus".

Well, that's interesting. Here is what Scripture says about our hearts: “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? Jer 17:9

[Remark insinuates negative connotations toward others. ToS 2.4]

But if you want to simply define "believe" I have no doubt definitions won't include "loving Jesus" as a part of believing in him.

I consult authorative sources for definition of Greek words. The words "love" and "believe" are quite different words.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree that these verses in Heb may refer to apostates, but I don't understand what these verses have to do with God's gifts being irrevocable.

I'll tell you.

The passage says believers, that is, people SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST will be condemned with the enemies of God if they trample on the blood of Christ, and insult the Spirit of grace (charis-the favor of gifting), through a conscious, willful continuing in sin (that lifestyle of sin John talks about).

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." (Hebrews 10:26-30 NASB capitals in original)

This passage has been attacked from every angle (i.e. they aren't really believers, the punishment isn't really hell, yada, yada, yada) and has survived every one of them. Because this and other passages are in the Bible it's impossible that the gifts that are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB includes redemption, the forgiveness of our sins. Impossible. Unless, one wants to go on record that the Bible has a glaring contradiction in it.

 

[reba]

Why would anyone say this? Of course I'm not. But I HAVE quoted God's Word. That is the issue.


I'm not sure what your view is. However, I do believe the words of Jesus Himself should be plenty important.

In John 4:14 Jesus said this: but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The Greek word for "drinks" is an aorist subjunctive. For those anti-OSAS folk who claim that one is saved ONLY AS LONG AS they continue to believe, the aorist tense means "in a point in time". There is no aspect of time in the aorist tense. It's like a photo, unlike a video, which does record a time aspect. And notice, "whoever drinks" a metaphor for believing, "shall never thirst", and becomes a well for eternal life.

Further, In John 6:51, Jesus said this: “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Here, the word for "eats" is also an aorist subjunctive. And what is the result of this "point in time eating"? Jesus was clear: "he will live forever".

Or this from Jesus, in John 10:28 - 8and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

I would suggest that "never perish" is a very long time.

Who said this?
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I'm not sure what your view is. However, I do believe the words of Jesus Himself should be plenty important.

We agree His Words are important .

 

[FreeGrace]

I'll tell you.

The passage says believers, that is, people SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST will be condemned with the enemies of God if they trample on the blood of Christ, and insult the Spirit of grace (charis-the favor of gifting), through a conscious, willful continuing in sin (that lifestyle of sin John talks about).

No it doesn't say that at all.

First, we know that eternal life is a gift of God and God's gifts are irrevocable. And Paul NEVER excluded the gift of eternal life from the gifts that are irrevocable. And no one has shown otherwise.

Second, the aorist tense in a number of verses totally refutes the theory that one must continue to believe in order to stay saved. In John 4:14, 6:51, 53, 54 Jesus used the aorist tense when He used the euphemisms of eating and drinking Him for belief in Him. But don't take my word for it. Here are His actual words:

Jn 4:14 - but whoever drinks (aorist) of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
Jn 6:51 - “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats (aorist) of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
Jn 6:53, 54 - So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat (aorist) the flesh of the Son of Man and drink (aorist) His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54“He who eats (aorist) My flesh and drinks (aorist) My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. This is a promise of eternal life from a point in time action.

These are guarantees from Jesus Himself about living forever as a result of an action in a point in time (aorist).

If one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life, then the Bible would NEVER HAVE USED THE AORIST TENSE.

And even Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer: They said, “Believe (aorist) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." (Hebrews 10:26-30 NASB capitals in original)

This is about divine discipline.

This passage has been attacked from every angle (i.e. they aren't really believers, the punishment isn't really hell, yada, yada, yada) and has survived every one of them.

In fact, it is the anti-eternal security view that has been thoroughly refuted directly from Scripture.

Because this and other passages are in the Bible it's impossible that the gifts that are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB includes redemption, the forgiveness of our sins. Impossible.

So then your view must conclude that Paul was dead wrong [just end the statement here. ToS 2.4]. That is what is impossible. No where has anyone shown that Paul's idea of "gifts" in Rom 11:29 was anything other than what he already had defined as gifts in 1:11 (spiritual gifts), justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17, and eternal life in 6:23.

Unless, one wants to go on record that the Bible has a glaring contradiction in it.

Your view simply denies what is clearly taught.

 

[FreeGrace]

Who said this?
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Jesus said it. And he also used the aorist tense in John 4:14, 6:51, 53 and 54 regarding the euphemisms about eating and drinking referring to believing in Him and making the point that from a point in time belief, one will live forever, and never thirst.

We agree His Words are important .

[Unnecessary condescending comment. ToS 2.4] Because of all the other words of Jesus, Rev 21:8 can ONLY refer to "unbelieving" persons.

Just think about this for a moment: if that list is taken individually, starting with fear, and including lying, then nearly every person in the human race is doomed for that reason. Which doesn't make any sense.

The Greek word for "and" is 'kai', and has a very wide range of meanings and usage. Such as: also, too, even, but.

If one replaces the English "and" for "even" in that verse, it makes much more sense. Jesus was describing the various kinds of sins of unbelievers: abominable, murders, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, even liars.

We absolutely do know from Rev 20:15 that the ONLY reason people will be cast into the lake of fire is because their names aren't in the book of life. Meaning, they didn't have eternal life. Which Rev 21:8 affirms as well.

So, Rev 21:8 cannot be about anyone who has ever believed. You've stated that the words of Jesus are important. How important? And which ones?

John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

This statement of Jesus affirms what Paul wrote about the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

Those who whom Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

I notice that He didn't add any caveat to His promise. No exceptions.

I believe that all of Jesus' words are important, as well as all verses in Scripture from al the various human authors.

When all is considered together, it is clear to me that eternal security is taught and promised in the Bible.

Or, show me any verse that plainly warns us that we can lose salvation or eternal life.

 

[JLB]

:nod:nod

Who said this?
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We agree His Words are important .

Amen. :nod

 

[JLB]

Jesus said it. And he also used the aorist tense in John 4:14, 6:51, 53 and 54 regarding the euphemisms about eating and drinking referring to believing in Him and making the point that from a point in time belief, one will live forever, and never thirst.

But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

This is a clear warning for all those who profess to know Him.

Let EVERYONE who calls on the Lord depart from iniquity.

Those Christians who call upon Him, and become sexually immoral and liars, .... have been warned of the outcome.


JLB

 

[Kenny_ms]

Well, that's interesting. Here is what Scripture says about our hearts: “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? Jer 17:9

I think you know perfectly well the heart is much more than that, but because it benefits your argument, the heart is now seen as nothing but deceitful.

But, I do agree, in some cases the heart can be very deceitful.

 

[Kenny_ms]

First, we know that eternal life is a gift of God and God's gifts are irrevocable.

But God doesn't give that irrevocable gift to just anyone.

 

[Malachi]

But God doesn't give that irrevocable gift to just anyone.

Why would you say that? All are freely invited to receive the gift of eternal life (Rev 22:17), and "whosoever" means whosoever -- anyone and everyone: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Why would you say that?

Because it's true and I think it's probably best you figure out how that can be on your own.

 

[Malachi]

Because it's true and I think it's probably best you figure out how that can be on your own.

Nothing which contradicts Scripture can be true, and you have that Scripture before you.

 

[FreeGrace]

But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

This is a clear warning for all those who profess to know Him.

Let EVERYONE who calls on the Lord depart from iniquity.

Those Christians who call upon Him, and become sexually immoral and liars, .... have been warned of the outcome.
JLB

There is nothing in Rev 21:8 to indicate that it is addressing believers. In fact, the word "unbelieving" indicates it is to those who haven't believed.

The lake of fire is reserved for those who's names aren't in the book of life. It's been proven that those who have been given eternal life will live forever, per John 6:51. And, of course, that is because eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable.

Until someone shows within Romans that Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life in 11:29, there is no reason to think that he didn't.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you know perfectly well the heart is much more than that, but because it benefits your argument, the heart is now seen as nothing but deceitful.

My point was that I trust Scripture far more than my own heart.

But, I do agree, in some cases the heart can be very deceitful.

I didn't get the sense of "some cases" in Jer 17:9.

 

[FreeGrace]

But God doesn't give that irrevocable gift to just anyone.

Right. We know who He does give it to: those who believe in Jesus Christ. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 51, 11:25-27, 30:31.

Those who have received this gift will live forever, according to Jesus Himself: “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh. John 6:51

and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

I find no exception to what Jesus promised here. Those He gives the gift of eternal life are said to never perish.

 

[Kenny_ms]

If i thought having the last word would convince anyone on the opposite side of the fence to come over to my side, I would come back to everything thrown at me for as long as it took but it's fairly clear that won't happen so, time to give it a rest....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." (Hebrews 10:26-30 NASB capitals in original)

This is about divine discipline.

The passage plainly says the judgement of the willfully sinning, Son trampling, blood desecrating, grace insulting (ex) believer is the coming Judgment of fire reserved for the enemies of God (vs.27) not the present loving discipline of the children of God. These people, sanctified by the blood of Christ, but who walk in a conscious, willful rejection of Christ, end up suffering the fate of the hypocritical and unbelieving. Jesus taught the same thing here:

42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will. 45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:42, 44-46, 48-49, 51 NASB)

When the people of God become unbelievers they suffer the fate of the unbelieving.

So, because we see the gift of redemption--the forgiveness of sins--being revoked here and in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB we know that Paul is not including salvation in the gifts that are irrevocable in Romans 11:29. He can't be, or else he'd be contradicting Jesus, and himself (assuming he wrote the book of Hebrews). It's a simple 'rightly' dividing the word of God, taking in the whole counsel of God, not just improperly isolating areas of it, separated out from the whole for the purpose of serving a preferred doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If i thought having the last word would convince anyone on the opposite side of the fence to come over to my side, I would come back to everything thrown at me for as long as it took but it's fairly clear that won't happen so, time to give it a rest....

Yo, Kenny_ms. You need to post for those who have ears to hear--for those who may or may not be participating, but only lurking in these forums--not necessarily posting for those who don't have ears to hear and may never have. When you're satisfied you've done that, then quit. Those you help win over to the truth in the privacy of their own minds, and who as a result work out their salvation with fear and trembling and endure to the end, they will be your crowing achievement--your reward, in which you will glory:

13 each man's work (the people we minister to) will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains (those we minister to and who endure to the end), he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up (those we minister to but who do not endure to the end), he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:13-15 NASB bold mine)

"12...work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ (you) will have reason to glory because (you) did not run in vain nor toil in vain."
(Philippians 2:12, 15-16 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

 

[JLB]

Until someone shows within Romans that Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life in 11:29, there is no reason to think that he didn't.

The only reason is Paul didn't include the words eternal life in Romans 11:29.

Gift - Strong's Number: 5486 - Charisma

For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established--
Romans 1:11

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;
Romans 12:6


Grace - Strong's Number: 5485 - Charis - a gift of grace


Here are other uses of the word gift - Charisma, which has at it's root grace.

Grace is the empowering ability of God, bestowed upon us to enable us to do what we can not without it.


For the spiritual empowering abilities and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


For the Gospel is the power unto salvation.


JLB

 

[Kenny_ms]

Yo, Kenny_ms. You need to post for those who have ears to hear--for those who may or may not be participating, but only lurking in these forums--not necessarily posting for those who don't have ears to hear and may never have.

Good point and thanks, Jethro.

Sometimes I find myself thinking posters are getting a little vindictive or just throwing anything at me/us to win an argument when winning is really not the point, but am not sure if that's the case or it's just me getting tired and the way I take things. Maybe the occasional break would be in order and some changes on how I post.