Jethro Bodine
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(Removed, response to a deleted post. Obadiah)
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Faith without works........is Faith.
- Thread starter Kidron
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Jethro Bodine
Member
The argument is not that we haven't been reconciled to God yet. The argument is that you can not remain reconciled for the purpose of sanctification if you don't continue in your faith:
"22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:24 NASB)
OSAS's job is to come along and make sure none of us understand the passage as it is plainly written that we have been reconciled to God, so we'll be holy and blameless and beyond reproach at Christ's return, only if we continue in our faith, but rather that our faith only determines the sanctification part and that you will still be saved despite a lack of sanctification if you stop believing in Christ. But sadly for OSAS that contradicts the scripture that says," sanctification without which no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14 NASB).
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There's no revoking. There's no danger of revoking. Jesus said his words will not pass away.
'But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire'. Matthew 5:22
Do you believe this? Unbelievers don't. That's why they are called unbelievers. So when unbelievers are brought before the council, who will speak for them? They will be liable to the hell of fire. So it is that if a man falls into unbelief, he will be judged.
K
Kenny_ms
Guest
Kenny_ms said: ↑
There is no clear discussion on black being white in the Bible either. It's not true so why discuss it?
What in the world does this mean??
I tried to avoid putting it this way, but It means why would there be a discussion in the Bible on something so ludicrous. I would have thought that was pretty clear, so I'm getting the idea it's not so much you can't, but you are not wanting to understand a lot of what's being said here.
Curious, when you first came to believe OSAS, was it something you were taught in your Church and then you surmised it true or did you come to the conclusion on your own?
There is no clear discussion on black being white in the Bible either. It's not true so why discuss it?
What in the world does this mean??
I tried to avoid putting it this way, but It means why would there be a discussion in the Bible on something so ludicrous. I would have thought that was pretty clear, so I'm getting the idea it's not so much you can't, but you are not wanting to understand a lot of what's being said here.
Curious, when you first came to believe OSAS, was it something you were taught in your Church and then you surmised it true or did you come to the conclusion on your own?
Couldn't be further from the truth.
There are no scriptures or proof in the bible that proves a person can not lose their salvation.
Zero!
Those who turn away after believing, have become unbelievers.
Unless you can prove, from the scriptures that unbelievers are saved, then your doctrine is built upon the shifting sands of man's ideology.
Here is the warning, given to John, for all those who call upon the name of Jesus.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8
Do I believe God keeps his promises (because that's what Paul is saying)? Absolutely. Do I believe Ro:11:29 supports OSAS? Absolutely not.
I don't know what you mean by defined. I'm just saying God made a covenant with Jacob and God keeps his promises. Lev. 26:40-45
40 “But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery which they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me, 41 so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity; 42 then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43 But the land shall be left by them, and enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them; and they shall make amends for their iniquity, because they spurned my ordinances, and their soul abhorred my statutes. 44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not spurn them, neither will I abhor them so as to destroy them utterly and break my covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God; 45 but I will for their sake remember the covenant with their forefathers, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the Lord.”
Romans 11:29 is about God's promises and his call and his gifts.
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What an interesting charge here! Paul clearly defined the word 'gift' in Rom 3:24 as justification and in 6:23 as eternal life, and then went on to say that God's gift are IRREVOCABLE, and yet this other poster tries to re-define what Paul already defined to mean something that Paul NEVER defined as a gift; all in order to eliminate the FACT that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.
The principle of God's discipline towards His children is spoken of in Heb 10 AND ch 12.
What the non-OSAS types fail to prove is that loss of belief equals loss of salvation. There are no verses that say such a thing, and in fact, many that clearly indicate that those who have believed will NEVER PERISH.
John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
What does this verse say? The one who believes HAS eternal life. And DOES NOT COME INTO JUGDMENT.
It is a total presumption to claim that loss of belief equals loss of salvation, since no where in the Bible do we find ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT. But that doesn't stop the non-OSAS types.
They have no support or evidence for their views but they continue to hold tightly to them.
John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
How can this verse be so misunderstood? Here, Jesus notes He gives eternal life to His sheep (believers) and they WILL NEVER PERISH. Why? Because eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
And there are NO verses about any sheep who become anything other than sheep. In fact, in Jn 10, Jesus never mentions goats or that sheep can become anything other than sheep.
On its face, if this statement were true, then Paul outright LIED. He defined justification and eternal life as a gift and that God's gifts are irrevocable. This statement DENIES what Paul wrote.
They have no verse that makes the claim that they do. That loss of belief results in loss of salvation.
If that were true, there is NO DOUBT that the Bible would have made that crystal clear. Instead, we find many verses that guarantee our security, regardless of one's behavior.
What an interesting charge here! Paul clearly defined the word 'gift' in Rom 3:24 as justification and in 6:23 as eternal life, and then went on to say that God's gift are IRREVOCABLE, and yet this other poster tries to re-define what Paul already defined to mean something that Paul NEVER defined as a gift; all in order to eliminate the FACT that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.
The principle of God's discipline towards His children is spoken of in Heb 10 AND ch 12.
What the non-OSAS types fail to prove is that loss of belief equals loss of salvation. There are no verses that say such a thing, and in fact, many that clearly indicate that those who have believed will NEVER PERISH.
John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
What does this verse say? The one who believes HAS eternal life. And DOES NOT COME INTO JUGDMENT.
It is a total presumption to claim that loss of belief equals loss of salvation, since no where in the Bible do we find ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT. But that doesn't stop the non-OSAS types.
They have no support or evidence for their views but they continue to hold tightly to them.
John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
How can this verse be so misunderstood? Here, Jesus notes He gives eternal life to His sheep (believers) and they WILL NEVER PERISH. Why? Because eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
And there are NO verses about any sheep who become anything other than sheep. In fact, in Jn 10, Jesus never mentions goats or that sheep can become anything other than sheep.
On its face, if this statement were true, then Paul outright LIED. He defined justification and eternal life as a gift and that God's gifts are irrevocable. This statement DENIES what Paul wrote.
They have no verse that makes the claim that they do. That loss of belief results in loss of salvation.
If that were true, there is NO DOUBT that the Bible would have made that crystal clear. Instead, we find many verses that guarantee our security, regardless of one's behavior.
The truth is that none of those 3 (nor any other verses) "plainly say" anything about loss of salvation. The claim is totally without merit because there is no evidence for the claim.
Because there aren't any. And no one has provided any. What has been provided doesn't plainly anything about loss of salvation, but the non-OSAS types think these verses "mean" loss of salvation.
The lol is right on, but on them. They are the ones who have tried to redefine what 'gift' means in Rom 11:29 so as to not be eternal life, which Paul clearly defined as a gift in Rom 6:23.
How about if those who believe that any of these verses SAY that salvation can be lost for any reason, to actually cite the verse and explain how it is so clear?
This should be interesting.
No it's not that at all. The verse is plain. "in orer to PRESENT YOU... HOLY AND BLAMELESS IF you continue in the faith". v.22 says that He has now reconciled you. So this isn't about not being reconciled. But this does illustrate how misunderstood Scripture is to those who reject OSAS.
"22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:24 NASB)
Actually, this is exactly what the verse says. Oh, and btw, because we ARE reconciled to God, we are secure in our salvation.
Where is the verse that actually claims what is being claimed?
Obadiah
Member
I thought I had posted a message here explaining this thread was temporarily closed for review, but don't see it now.
At any rate, the thread had been closed and is now open again after some cleanup. Please note that there are rules to follow in this forum and repeated violations of those rules can and will result in official warnings, infraction points, and even suspension from CF.NET. Please follow the rules.
Obadiah.
At any rate, the thread had been closed and is now open again after some cleanup. Please note that there are rules to follow in this forum and repeated violations of those rules can and will result in official warnings, infraction points, and even suspension from CF.NET. Please follow the rules.
Obadiah.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I wonder, too, how this verse can be so misunderstood:
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never * perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:27 NASB)
His sheep are the one's that never perish. It's the ones who believe the testimony of God about Jesus that will never perish.
"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)
It's not the one's who no longer believe the testimony of God about Jesus and return to their life of sin that never perish. It's believers that never perish. Faith is the security of our salvation. Keep believing and you will never perish.
Since you say OSAS is the doctrine that does not redefine what 'gift' means, surely then Romans 11:29 NASB includes the gift of faith, too, right?
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Jethro Bodine
Member
How is one reconciled to God if they are not holy? The Bible says you will not be presented before the Lord if you are not holy:
"14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification (holiness) without which no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14 NASB parenthesis mine)
Does this passage also need OSAS to help us see it doesn't really mean what it says?
.
Why isn't 'in Christ Jesus' part of your definition of gift? You have to leave it out to make Roman 6:23 define gift. Otherwise Roman 6:23 defines eternal life.
The free gift is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Is Paul defining gift is or is he telling us what eternal life is?
Romans 6:23 says the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. The take away is eternal life is in Christ Jesus. That doesn't work as a definition of gift.
So re. Romans 11:29, you could say God's call and the gifts pertaining to the call are irrevocable. That would make sense since the Jews were called. It also makes sense to our calling, 'For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” Acts 2:39
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Let's look at this in terms of security and unbelief. Soil #1 No security. Soil #2 no root in himself, falls into unbelief. No security. Soil #3 believes, but his mind is on other things, needs the rod. Soil #4 bears good fruit and lots of it. Can't imagine #4 falling into unbelief. So this is the level of faith you have to have to have eternal security The elect would be #4. No one can snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
I think most Christians are not much more than #2, not secure. They might say they cast out demons in his name, but the Lord doesn't know them. They are constantly looking for water and teachers to tell them they are good people and even falling into unbelief.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Okay, while your doctrine is in denial, insisting there is not a shred of evidence in the Bible for non-OSAS, we will continue to watch as your doctrine jumps in and takes each of the non-OSAS passages it says don't exist that I'm posting and makes it so they don't really mean what they say. Here's the next one:
You said there are no verses that make the claim that loss of belief means the loss of salvation:
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so * that none * of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:12-14 NASB bold and underline mine)
Remember my point. I said it is actually OSAS that has to make the Bible not mean what it so clearly says, not the other way around as OSAS insists, and I said I would prove that by posting these passages. I'm doing that and we're all seeing which doctrine it is that has to twist and redefine words, restrict context, etc. etc. to make the passage not mean what it says. I think we're on #4. Your doctrine has done that to the first three and I trust it will do that to this one, too. We have several more to go which I trust your doctrine will also make not mean what they upon first read say in plain words, in spite of your argument that there is not even the suggestion whatsoever in the Bible that non-OSAS is true.
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Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:18
He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
1 John 5:10
He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son.
So he who falls into unbelief falls into condemnation.
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Yes. Well said.
What is interesting to note about the language here, is that Paul clearly says "falls away from the living God", which denotes his understanding of eternal life.
Jesus taught us eternal life was knowing God... John 17:3, which clearly refers to relationship with God.
Falling away from God, and the relationship we once had, is undeniably losing the relationship that is described by Jesus as eternal life, which is knowing God.
This same understanding that Paul teaches here, is also taught by the Lord Himself, in John 15.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
The relationship of the branch and the vine, is clearly portrayed, as our relationship to Christ, connect to Him and receiving His Life into us.
Disconnect from Him and you have disconnected from the eternal life that He provides to each of us who believe.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, somehow eternal life in OSAS is also NOT knowing Jesus Christ, in direct contradiction to scripture:
"3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. " (John 17:3 NASB)
It takes OSAS to help us see that it isn't just knowing him that is eternal life, as one might assume from this verse by simply reading it.