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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Faith without works........is Faith.
- Thread starter Kidron
- Start date
Qchan
Member
At this point, you're simply arguing with scripture. Clearly, you're justified by faith, whether or not your abide to the Law of Moses. That's what the bible says, and it says it rather clearly.
You're thinking that faith dies without good works, when in fact, faith produces good works. That is what James is saying. He's saying faith without good works doesn't make sense, because faith produces good works. It makes total sense to me.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
JLB is talking about someone that is saved.
James is not speaking about saving "born again" faith.
There is no scripture that says Faith produce Good works. Even Tribulation does not produce faith. It produces patience, experience, hope.
If you have faith, say you have faith, then you will responded to what you have faith for. Another word for faith is to believe something.
If you think your house is on fire, and have faith that it's on fire, you don't wait around for that faith to get you out of the house. You have to act on what you believe.
Kidron
Member
Now, we are expected to practice righteousness.
If you are disobedient and choose to live a life of gratifying the desire of the flesh, then you will not inherit the kingdom of God.
JLB
[/QUOTE]
================================================================
Hey..
did you ever read this?
Is that ok?
So, you just go right ahead and worry about your Works, and i'll go my way and believe the bible.
Im already seated in Heavenly places with Christ. (Eph 2:6)
Its done.
Im already translated from Darkness to light. ( Colossians 1:13)
Its done.
Im already sealed unto the day of redemption. ( Eph 4:30 )
Its done.
I already have Eternal life, according to 1John 5
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
So, i already have eternal life, im already sealed unto the day of redemption, im already IN CHRIST seated in heavenly places right now, and im already in the same "kingdom" as Jesus.....and you want to come and talk to me about works for salvation as if this matters a whole lot?
You make me smile.
Thank you
K
If you are disobedient and choose to live a life of gratifying the desire of the flesh, then you will not inherit the kingdom of God.
JLB
[/QUOTE]
================================================================
Hey..
did you ever read this?
Colossians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Is that ok?
So, you just go right ahead and worry about your Works, and i'll go my way and believe the bible.
Im already seated in Heavenly places with Christ. (Eph 2:6)
Its done.
Im already translated from Darkness to light. ( Colossians 1:13)
Its done.
Im already sealed unto the day of redemption. ( Eph 4:30 )
Its done.
I already have Eternal life, according to 1John 5
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
So, i already have eternal life, im already sealed unto the day of redemption, im already IN CHRIST seated in heavenly places right now, and im already in the same "kingdom" as Jesus.....and you want to come and talk to me about works for salvation as if this matters a whole lot?
You make me smile.
Thank you
K
Kidron
Member
Of course "head knowledge" or "having Jesus in your life", is not the same thing as being saved or being born again.
Listen.
The Devil has more of Jesus in his life right this very second, then he wants, and its not doing him a bit of good, regarding Salvation.
No, Jesus said this..
"you must be born again".
so, you have to have a NEW BIRTH.
You have to be atoned for by the blood of Christ and this means you become regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
And NONE OF THIS you do........all you do is activate the process by FAITH.
By realizing you are lost, you are a sinner, you are going to go to hell like a bullet after you die, and you are given the Gospel, that tells you that God has made a way for you to be pardoned.
And you take the pardon.
It has to be by FAITH, because you cant really see it can you?
So, obviously, as you cant see God or Jesus or the Blood or the Cross, you are believing in something with your heart that you cant see with your eyes.
THIS is faith.
Its putting trust in what GOD SAID.......The Gospel.......1 Corin 15:3-8.........and once you are drawn by the Holy Spirit to realize your lost condition and your need to be SAVED, you reach out in FAITH, and take the OFFER.
When you do, God takes you.
Its that simple.
And at THAT POINT you are now become a Son of God, because God has taken the death of Christ and used it to pay for your sins.
You dont do it.
You cant do it.
HE does it........and its INSTANT. and its FREE.......
Then, after this......after you are born again, you can go and read James or whatever you want that tells you to live the life and do the deeds....but NOT TO BE SAVED.......but because YOU ARE.
Thats the distinction that you have to understand, or you will spend your entire Christian life under the burden of trying to keep yourself saved by works, instead of understanding that God saved you, and its done., its finished., ....Salvation is completed.
Its all done for you, as a gift.........and its accessed by your faith.
its like being BORN.......you only do it once both in the physical realm and the spiritual
And in neither case, can you undo it by your behavior.
Qchan
Member
The bible makes a clear distinction between faith and works. Clearly, works is something you do, and faith is something you have. Somehow, you're trying to say faith involves works, but it doesn't. Otherwise the free gift wouldn't be free since you'd be doing something for it.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Your mixing up free gifts with someone saying they have faith, yet they won't respond to what they say they believe.
You can sit in church, hear the great news about how Jesus heals, gets our bills paid, gives us eternal life, but just sitting there and not going up to respond to the alter call is faith without works. You confess Jesus before men, he confesses you before the Father.
That is what James was saying, you say you have faith, I'll show you my faith because I act on what I believe. (Works)
Jesus told the lepers to go show yourselves to the priest. As you know a priest had to inspect you to be cleared of Leprosy, so you could go back into the public. When Jesus told them that, they were still full of leprosy, and here they had to believe what Jesus said and just go to the priest full of leprosy.
IN them days you just did not walk to the priest being full of Leprosy. A good way to be killed or sent out of the city. They believed Jesus and started on their way though.
And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
(Luk 17:14)
They believed what Jesus said so much, the headed toward the priest full of Leprosy, but as they went, they were cleaned.
They believed something, and because of that they acted on it. This is what James is talking about.
Kidron
Member
Well, things never start off well when the OP starts with Misquoting a scripture.
Faith, without Works is dead, and Faith alone can't save you. That is scripture.
Yes, faith can be dead....however, my Thread's title is not addressing James,....Its merely stating that Faith and Works are not the same thing.
Now..
God saves you, using the Cross as the means and Jesus Blood as the agent of pardon.
Faith accesses this process, not works., never works.
Its called "redemption", and the new birth., or "born again"., and its a "free gift".
So, with Faith, you access God's pardon.
None of that is what James is talking about in that one verse that creates more Legalists then a Thousand Popes ever could.
He's also not saying this......."if your faith is dead, you are going to hell, because you lost your salvation".
The reason he cant be saying this, is because he is addressing FAITH , in believers, in that verse, that use to be active.
So, they ARE saved, but they are now inactive in their discipleship to Christ.
So, James is doing what Paul mentions....."rebuke them sharply so that they may be sound in the faith".
James is dealing with some dried up believers.
If a person by faith Made and confessed Jesus is Lord, than it was that faith that gave them eternal life. However, faith also takes action to what it believes. Saying Jesus is my Lord, but I never do what he says, then it's pretty clear Jesus is not really my Lord. What I want to do is really my Lord.
What you are describing is the difference between Salvation and Discipleship.
And where a lot of people get this confused is to try to connect them to keep themselves saved, or to prove that both are necessary to be saved.
Which of course is not "Grace".
K
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Well, then your the OP get it back on track. I think folks got confused because it looked a whole lot like you were going to James. James is not talking about Saving faith so to speak. He is talking about responding to faith you claim you have. Certainly would need to be born again first to claim to have faith in God.
Faith to be born again takes a response. Believe in your heart, confess Jesus is Lord. Get baptised for example. It's acting on a persons belief they are born again.
Far different thing than using works in attempts to get saved or stay saved.
If we believe God will meet our needs, there needs to be some action that says we really believe that. That is not getting born again, and a whole different topic.
Get it cleared up on what you meant, give some examples and get folks away from James and on the issue you want to really address.
Thank you for clearing that up and for posting the thread.
Blessings.
Kidron
Member
If you read the Thread, you'll find that i explained that people should not 'run to James" to try to prove you can lose your salvation.
And, i knew that legalists would see my title as their honey comb to buzz around, and this is expected, as this is the other reason i titled it the way you read it.
Now, clearly, Faith is of its own accord, "Faith".
Thats the self-definition of itself......its what it is......so my title is absolutely correct,.....and works, are something else entirely.
However, as this forum seems to be mostly filled with anti_OSAS types, then i would want them to come and talk about it.
Hence the underlying cause for the title's wordplay.
K
B
Brother Mike
Guest
If you read the Thread, you'll find that i explained that people should not 'run to James" to try to prove you can lose your salvation.
And, i knew that legalists would see my title as their honey comb to buzz around, and this is expected, as this is the other reason i titled it the way you read it.
Now, clearly, Faith is of its own accord, "Faith".
Thats the self-definition of itself......its what it is......so my title is absolutely correct,.....and works, are something else entirely.
However, as this forum seems to be mostly filled with anti_OSAS types, then i would want them to come and talk about it.
Hence the underlying cause for the title's wordplay.
K
There are some OSAS folks running around. I am against Calvinism, something that tends to go with the OSAS belief. I am also against waking up only to find you lost your salvation because you just did not help that old lady across the street as you should have.
You also have to know that folks read half of everything and connect the dots the rest of the way to what they want to believe you said.
I just read that Faith without works is faith, in my brain I said, that's not what James said, then dismissed the rest and went on to what JLB posted. So I am also just as guilty. You might have used something different to grab attention.
Off to the hell thread. Be blessed.
Kidron
Member
Yes.
Well, let me say this.......if guilt by association with Calvin, is what a legalist would attempt on a OSAS, then, i guess i can see why.
For me, i dont agree with JC, or his 5 points.
I take a different approach to OSAS.
I realized that , if im seated in heavenly places, then i am not going to fall off the seat if i sin.
Also, if the bible tells me im sealed until the day of redemption, then, who am i to use James to try to argue?
Next,....In 1st John, John tells me there is a way to KNOW i have eternal life, and he says this is because i have the one who IS, eternal life.> living IN ME.
So, if i have Eternal life, this explains why im "in Christ", and explains why im seated in Heavenly places, while im also sealed THERE till the day of redemption.
Also, if Christ is in me, then that means if a James worshiping self righteous legalist is correct and i go to hell because i was not good enough to maintain the "gift of Righteousness", then, as Im in Christ and the Holy Spirit is in ME, ...then if i go to Hell, i take them with me.
I dont think that is going to happen
Picture God saying....."where is Jesus and the Holy Spirit".....and Gabriel answers...''"well they are all in hell" according to that legalist on the Christian Forum":::....
There there is the fact that i cant be "unborn again", or the fact that if the Blood Atonement is applied, then its is....and i cant undo it.
As a matter of fact, If God had designed a blood atonement and an eternal life that was based on a mortal coil like mine being perfect or good enough to keep it or it could be removed, then God is an idiot for resting my very eternity on the back of my daily behavior on any given Sunday, as , unlike you, im not so good., and i know it.
But, thats ok, because God is not an idiot... See, he already knows what a world of Adamic Natures will do, if you give them a way to lose salvation.
And finally, that sinless BLOOD never stops making me "accepted in the beloved"..
It keeps me saved, because nothing else can.
"Amazing Grace".
be blessed,
K
Last edited:
B
Brother Mike
Guest
sounds like a plan.
Kidron
Member
Qchan
Member
I'm trying to figure out what you're saying. Doesn't seem like what you're saying makes much sense.
When I go up to a person who wants eternal life through Jesus Christ, I simply tell them to believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is that Jesus, as the son of God, died on the cross, was buried and rose 3 days later. That's it. By a person believing in that gospel, there's nothing else they need to "do". However, your message is much more confusing and complex.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
it's complex because I was talking about James, the OP was not others where talking about James and everything else. I was not mentioning salvation in any of my examples. You were thinking of that, while trying to read my examples.
Welcome to the forums.
We are not discussing the law of Moses.
We are discussing faith.
Faith like Abraham's.
That is the scripture you posted, so we are discussing that scripture.
Romans 4:16 -
If we have faith like Abraham's.
James gives us an example of faith like Abraham's.
I'm not discussing the law of Moses, or "good works".
It's the obedience of faith, that credits us with righteousness.
If a person hears the Gospel message, and believes Jesus is Lord, then continues to serve Satan as Lord, and lives a life of pleasure, and sin, then that person shows by his actions that his believing was in vain, and does not have the faith of Abraham that saves.
JLB
================================================================
Hey..
did you ever read this?
Colossians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Is that ok?
So, you just go right ahead and worry about your Works, and i'll go my way and believe the bible.
Im already seated in Heavenly places with Christ. (Eph 2:6)
Its done.
Im already translated from Darkness to light. ( Colossians 1:13)
Its done.
Im already sealed unto the day of redemption. ( Eph 4:30 )
Its done.
I already have Eternal life, according to 1John 5
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
So, i already have eternal life, im already sealed unto the day of redemption, im already IN CHRIST seated in heavenly places right now, and im already in the same "kingdom" as Jesus.....and you want to come and talk to me about works for salvation as if this matters a whole lot?
You make me smile.
Thank you
K[/QUOTE]
I've been talking about the obedience of faith, which boils down to obeying God when He speaks to you, or leads you.
Also, the obedience to the Gospel message, which has at it's foundation, the command to repent.
If we confess Jesus as Lord, then live a life of practicing the works of the flesh, then obviously we are not practicing righteousness.
And yes, I am talking about people who are in Christ.
What's done?
What's done?
That's funny!
If you took the time to read what Paul actually wrote to the Church at Ephesus, in context to the scripture you quoted, you may have a different response.
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;
19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
25 Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor," for we are members of one another.
26 "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun go down on your wrath,
27 nor give place to the devil.
28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.
29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.
1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.
2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;
4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 4:17-5:7
no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Therefore do not be partakers with them.
What you quoted was a word of correction and warning from Paul, about those who practice the works of the flesh.
Paul warns us to turn away [repent] of this lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh.
As it is written.... the end of your faith, is the salvation of your soul, not the beginning. 1 Peter 1:9
It will be done when you stand before the King on the Day of judgement, and you hear these words -
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:Matthew 25:34
JLB
Qchan
Member
it's complex because I was talking about James, the OP was not others where talking about James and everything else. I was not mentioning salvation in any of my examples. You were thinking of that, while trying to read my examples.
Welcome to the forums.
LOL. But you replied directly to me...