Faith without works........is Faith.

[Qchan]

We are not discussing the law of Moses.

We are discussing faith.

Faith like Abraham's.

That is the scripture you posted, so we are discussing that scripture.

Romans 4:16 -

If we have faith like Abraham's.

James gives us an example of faith like Abraham's.

I'm not discussing the law of Moses, or "good works".

It's the obedience of faith, that credits us with righteousness.

If a person hears the Gospel message, and believes Jesus is Lord, then continues to serve Satan as Lord, and lives a life of pleasure, and sin, then that person shows by his actions that his believing was in vain, and does not have the faith of Abraham that saves.


JLB

Just because you can put the action into words, doesn't mean it's possible. You can't put Jesus in your heart and then start serving Satan.

"Obedience" invokes "doing".
Doing = Works.

So, you can't tell people they are righteous through faith, but then tell them they need to be obedient. It's a contradiction.

 

[JLB]

Just because you can put the action into words, doesn't mean it's possible. You can't put Jesus in your heart and then start serving Satan.

When you turn away from the living God, who then is it you serve?

When turn to practicing the works of the flesh, who is it you are serving? Yourself? Your flesh?

What you, like so many others misunderstand, is the principle of faith, in relation to salvation.

If you have faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation, then you have the hope of salvation.

You are saved in this hope, but hope that is seen, that is to say, hope that is realized is not hope.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for.... the evidence of things not seen, not realized.

Paul encourages us to continue steadfast in the faith and hope of the Gospel, and warns us to turn away or turn back as it were, to serving the one whom we repented from serving when we first turned to Christ.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

And again -

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end,
12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Hebrews 6:4-12


and again -

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

We are encouraged to:

Not be moved away from the hope of the Gospel, and to continue staeadfast to the end.

We have become partakers of Christ IF, we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.


Please consider these things as we discuss this subject.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for...

Faith without the act of obedience is dead.


JLB

 

[Qchan]

When you turn away from the living God, who then is it you serve?

When turn to practicing the works of the flesh, who is it you are serving? Yourself? Your flesh?

What you, like so many others misunderstand, is the principle of faith, in relation to salvation.

If you have faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation, then you have the hope of salvation.

You are saved in this hope, but hope that is seen, that is to say, hope that is realized is not hope.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for.... the evidence of things not seen, not realized.

Paul encourages us to continue steadfast in the faith and hope of the Gospel, and warns us to turn away or turn back as it were, to serving the one whom we repented from serving when we first turned to Christ.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

And again -

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end,
12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Hebrews 6:4-12


and again -

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

We are encouraged to:

Not be moved away from the hope of the Gospel, and to continue staeadfast to the end.

We have become partakers of Christ IF, we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.


Please consider these things as we discuss this subject.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for...

Faith without the act of obedience is dead.


JLB

Essentially what you're saying is that a person can lose their salvation. Is that correct?

 

[JLB]

Essentially what you're saying is that a person can lose their salvation. Is that correct?

Yes. That's what the scriptures I posted warn us about.

The root of the false Gospel of "faith alone" or "dead faith" saves you is OSAS.

FAITH requires an obedient response, whether confessing with your mouth or the effort that obedience requires (faith like Abraham).

Do you believe that Jesus speaks to His people and leads them after they are saved?

Jesus said - why do you call Me Lord, and do not DO the things I say. Luke 6:46

JLB

 

[Kidron]

Jesus said - why do you call Me Lord, and do not DO the things I say. Luke 6:46

JLB

Why would you use a verse in Luke, that is written before Jesus died for anyone sins, and was written to unbelievers and not Christians (No Cross yet)....to try to prove a Christian can lose it

 

[Kidron]

God is good all the time

 

[JLB]

Why would you use a verse in Luke, that is written before Jesus died for anyone sins, and was written to unbelievers and not Christians (No Cross yet)....to try to prove a Christian can lose it

This is a principle.

Your master is the one you obey.

you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

Do you think somehow that Jesus' words that He spoke while alive on this earth, somehow don't apply to us?

He is the King of the kingdom we have been translated into.

He is the mediator of the New Covenant.

He said why do you call Me Lord, but do not do as I say.

Your Lord is the one you obey.

JLB

 

[Qchan]

Yes. That's what the scriptures I posted warn us about.

The root of the false Gospel of "faith alone" or "dead faith" saves you is OSAS.

FAITH requires an obedient response, whether confessing with your mouth or the effort that obedience requires (faith like Abraham).

Do you believe that Jesus speaks to His people and leads them after they are saved?

Jesus said - why do you call Me Lord, and do not DO the things I say. Luke 6:46

JLB

JLB, looks like we can't seem to agree on a whole lot
John 10:28-30 says no one can snatch them away from Jesus or His father's hand. John 6:37;39 says that those given to Jesus from the Father will never be rejected. It also says Jesus will not even lose one that was given to him. Yet, you're saying this is not true. Do you have a scripture that backs up your position?

 

[LovethroughDove]

Luke 13:23-28 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

We all know there is a narrow path to walk. Lots of people either think "my faith will save me".........No. Lots of people think my "good works will save me"...... No. All the people with true faith listed above (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets) They had faith in the true God and acted upon that faith. If you say you have faith, and "do" nothing.........you will be on the wide path with weeping and gnashing.

 

[JLB]

JLB, looks like we can't seem to agree on a whole lot
John 10:28-30 says no one can snatch them away from Jesus or His father's hand. John 6:37;39 says that those given to Jesus from the Father will never be rejected. It also says Jesus will not even lose one that was given to him. Yet, you're saying this is not true. Do you have a scripture that backs up your position?

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:37-40

This is the promise to His disciples and those who were following Him, during His life, as He said... everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life.

He also went on to say to those there -

64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:64-71


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB, looks like we can't seem to agree on a whole lot
John 10:28-30 says no one can snatch them away from Jesus or His father's hand. John 6:37;39 says that those given to Jesus from the Father will never be rejected. It also says Jesus will not even lose one that was given to him. Yet, you're saying this is not true. Do you have a scripture that backs up your position?

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
John 10:27-29

Again, if you read in context who He is referring to as sheep in what He teaches here, you will see He is referring to His disciples.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:14-16


You seem to have a habit of taking a verse or two, out of context and applying them to the whole world, while at the same time rejecting the teaching from Jesus about hell.

This is sounds like the doctrine of Universalism.

Do you believe in the doctrine of Universalism?


I know that without grace from God I would be lost.

His mercy is renewed for me every morning.

I know God loves you and me dearly, as He gave His only begotten Son to die for us, so that we could have everlasting life.

However we can not reject what the whole counsel of God teaches us.

I agree with you, that no one is able to snatch us out of His hand.

I agree with you that, He gives eternal life to those who believe.


God bless you and keep you.


JLB

 

[Qchan]

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
John 10:27-29

Again, if you read in context who He is referring to as sheep in what He teaches here, you will see He is referring to His disciples.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:14-16


You seem to have a habit of taking a verse or two, out of context and applying them to the whole world, while at the same time rejecting the teaching from Jesus about hell.

This is sounds like the doctrine of Universalism.

Do you believe in the doctrine of Universalism?


I know that without grace from God I would be lost.

His mercy is renewed for me every morning.

I know God loves you and me dearly, as He gave His only begotten Son to die for us, so that we could have everlasting life.

However we can not reject what the whole counsel of God teaches us.

I agree with you, that no one is able to snatch us out of His hand.

I agree with you that, He gives eternal life to those who believe.


God bless you and keep you.


JLB

Seems like you're getting a bit sidetracked
I'm saying you can't lose your salvation. I provided scriptures that prove this. You began preaching about something off topic. Are you still interested in engaging the topic of salvation or should we move on?

 

[JLB]

Seems like you're getting a bit sidetracked
I'm saying you can't lose your salvation. I provided scriptures that prove this. You began preaching about something off topic. Are you still interested in engaging the topic of salvation or should we move on?

That's what Im doing.

You haven't posted any scriptures that prove a person can not lose their salvation.

You have taken scriptures that refer to Jesus disciples, and misapplied them to mean everyone in the world.

JLB

 

[Qchan]

That's what Im doing.

You haven't posted any scriptures that prove a person can not lose their salvation.

You have taken scriptures that refer to Jesus disciples, and misapplied them to mean everyone in the world.

JLB

I'm thinking maybe you missed the scriptures I've provided. Here they are:
John 10:28-30 and John 6:37;39

I'm sure you're not saying the above scriptures are only talking about the disciples, because then you'd be saying that God the Father only gave Jesus disciples to him and no one else.

 

[JLB]

I'm thinking maybe you missed the scriptures I've provided. Here they are:
John 10:28-30 and John 6:37;39

I'm sure you're not saying the above scriptures are only talking about the disciples, because then you'd be saying that God the Father only gave Jesus disciples to him and no one else.

Who else are you saying, God the Father gave disciples to?


JLB

 

[dianegcook]

Rev.22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life......

 

[Qchan]

Who else are you saying, God the Father gave disciples to?


JLB

Let me rephrase.
I'm sure you're not saying that the scriptures I've provided you are only talking about the 12 disciples. If they were, then you would be saying that God the Father ~only~ gave Jesus his 12 disciples and no one else.

 

[JLB]

Let me rephrase.
I'm sure you're not saying that the scriptures I've provided you are only talking about the 12 disciples. If they were, then you would be saying that God the Father ~only~ gave Jesus his 12 disciples and no one else.

Yes I believe God the Father gave the disciples to Jesus, and to no one else.

Jesus says He has other sheep, not of this fold....

Do you think you are of the "other sheep" or of the original disciples that followed Him while He was on the earth?


JLB

 

[Qchan]

Yes I believe God the Father gave the disciples to Jesus, and to no one else.

Jesus says He has other sheep, not of this fold....

Do you think you are of the "other sheep" or of the original disciples that followed Him while He was on the earth?


JLB

Ok.
Once you become a Christian, you become part of the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27). Once you're part of the body of Christ, then Christ has you (Ephesians 5:29-30).

So, now that you know you are a part of the body of Christ, then you know you belong to Jesus. You are in Jesus' hands and the Father's hands, and no one can pluck you out. For the bible says in John 10:28-30;6:37;39 (NLT), "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one. However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.""

You cannot lose your salvation. Once you get it, there's no getting away from it.

 

[JLB]

Ok.
Once you become a Christian, you become part of the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27). Once you're part of the body of Christ, then Christ has you (Ephesians 5:29-30).

So, now that you know you are a part of the body of Christ, then you know you belong to Jesus. You are in Jesus' hands and the Father's hands, and no one can pluck you out. For the bible says in John 10:28-30;6:37;39 (NLT), "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one. However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.""

Not if I myself depart from the living God, by having a deceitful heart of unbelief.

If I like a dog that returns to its own vomit, decide to return to the pollutions of this world, that I escaped from through the knowledge of Jesus Christ, then it would have been better for me to never hear the Gospel and be set free, for the end will be worse for me.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

JLB