Faith without works........is Faith.

[Rollo Tamasi]

This seems to be the view in the OSAS camp, however, it really shows a lack of understanding of what it means to be saved "by faith".

The definition of faith is: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

If you are saved by faith, then you have not yet obtained the reality of salvation, but rather you have the hope of salvation.


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

"IT" here in verse 25 is the object of the thing hoped for, as described in verse 24, which is salvation...

For we were saved in this hope...

That is why Peter says - ...receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

The reality of our faith, the thing we are hoping for, and waiting for with perseverance is the salvation of our soul.


Between now and the end of your faith, is the life you live and the temptations you endure, in order to continue in the faith steadfast to the end.


JLB

We view these verses from different points of view.
There is nothing in these verses that say we can lose our salvation.
On the contrary, Paul is continually telling us to be steadfast to the end.
It's a pep talk about the truth, the truth that we already have inside of us.

1 Corinthians 13:13;
"And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love.
But the greatest of these is love".

This is salvation right here, faith, hope, and love.
Paul reminds us to keep these until the end as all other things disappear.
If you are born again, you know this, you delight in this, you keep this.

To take positive verses that are used to build up our faith and change them to say something negative is just a lack of understanding of what the verses really mean.

 

[JLB]

Hello,

1) my quoting from a commentary is due to me not being an expert in the Greek language but simply used the commentary to support what I posted. Even without quoting the commentary the fact still remains, Paul included a laver of water, baptismal font, in how they were "saved" (same Greek word in Eph 5:26 also)

2) I harmonized three "new birth" verses showing "water" in Jn 3:5 is equivalent to "baptized" in 1 Cor 12:13 which is equivalent to "washing of regeneration" (laver of water) of Tts 3:5. Since there is just one way to be saved/born again, then all three verses MUST harmonize.
In harmonizing these three verses, the bible is its own best commentary here in telling me what "water" of Jn 3:5 refers to, that being, "baptized" and "laver of water".

3) John 3:6 shows there is a distinction between the physical birth and the spiritual birth but does not in anyway remove water/baptized/laver of water from the new birth.

4) I agree baptism is where one is baptized into the death of Christ but baptism is where one "rises to walk in newness of life" (Rom 6:4). The new birth is where an inward, spiritual change takes place and rising from water baptism to walk in newness of life is that new "birth from death". It can also be noted here also that Christ's resurrection from the dead is referred to as a 'birth from death', Rev 1:5; Col 1:18 therefore born of water is equivalent to a birth from death.

Please show me where baptism is mentioned in John 3:1-5.

Jesus is teaching Nicodemus by using earthly things to teach him about heavenly things.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6

Born of flesh vs born of the Spirit.

No where is baptism mentioned.

Born of water is a reference to natural child birth.

Water has nothing to do with the new birth as it is Spirit that gives birth to spirit.

You doctrine is trying to teach us that water "gives birth" to spirit.

Flesh gives birth to flesh. This is what born of water means.

Spirit gives birth to spirit is where the new birth comes from.

Baptism is about death and identifying ourselves with the likeness of his death and the illness of the resurrection which concerns the body being raised from the dead and our flesh being crucified.


5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Romans 6:5

What is resurrected is the body.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Water does not give birth to spirit.

JLB

 

[JLB]

We view these verses from different points of view.
There is nothing in these verses that say we can lose our salvation.
On the contrary, Paul is continually telling us to be steadfast to the end.
It's a pep talk about the truth, the truth that we already have inside of us.

1 Corinthians 13:13;
"And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love.
But the greatest of these is love".

This is salvation right here, faith, hope, and love.
Paul reminds us to keep these until the end as all other things disappear.
If you are born again, you know this, you delight in this, you keep this.

To take positive verses that are used to build up our faith and change them to say something negative is just a lack of understanding of what the verses really mean.

We don't get to have our own "view".

We do however get to be conformed to the truth. This is where the unity of faith comes from, having had our mind renewed with the truth so that we are not blown about with every wind of doctrine.

You reject what the bible defines for us about faith.

The definition of faith is: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1

If you are saved by faith, then you have not yet obtained the reality of salvation, but rather you have the hope of salvation.

We who are saved by faith all have within us the hope of salvation.

We all must continue steadfast in our faith, to continue to have the hope of this salvation.

If a person decided to turn away from Christ and the salvation that is by faith in Him, and turn to other gods such as Hinduism, then they no longer have faith in Christ for salvation.

They have turned away from the living God.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul used Abraham as an example of one who "worketh not" yet we know Abraham did do works! (Heb 11:8;17; Gen 26:5).
Again, James is saying Abraham was justified by his obedient work (Heb 11:17;) while Paul is saying Abraham "worketh not" in flawless law keeping.

The problem with this is, if Paul and James are using the exact same definition of 'justified' they still disagree and contradict each other on when Abraham was justified:

Paul (along with the scriptures) says he was justified in Genesis 15:
"3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." " (Romans 4:3 NASB capitals in original)

James says he was justified much later in Genesis 22 (after he was circumcised, by the way):
"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? " (James 2:21 NASB)

You're going to argue that Abraham was obedient before he offered up Isaac on the altar, but James says Abraham was declared righteous when he offered up Isaac, not before.

This problem is easily fixed when one realizes that 'justified' has two meanings. It means to be MADE righteous, and it means to be SHOWN to be righteous. Knowing this quickly untangles any perceived contradiction between what justified Abraham, and when. There is no need to invent a doctrine that distinguishes between 'obedient faith works' and 'works of the law' to explain an apparent contradiction in the scriptures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, all virgins do not burn in eternal hellfire because "the Bible says so"...lol. My interpretation of this verse is that physical sacrificial pain effects our salvation. That's why Paul says "I buffet my body...". (1Cor. 9:27) Accepting sacrifice and "offering it up" is also consistent with Paul's teaching in Colossians "Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church." (1:24)

How would you interpret it?

How do I interpret it? I don't know, except that I'm with you; Paul's not saying virgins will burn in hell for not having children .

"15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." (1 Timothy 2:15 NIV)

It does show us what we agree on, that the faith that saves is the faith that does things.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hummm....I've read this five times and I can't find anything to argue with.

Don't you hate when that happens? That's no fun, is it?

I think the "righteous things" are referring to "works of the law", not all good deeds. (Surprise!!) The reason is because Paul uses the past tense ("righteous things we HAD done...") instead of the present tense (are doing). Then, when talking about good deeds, he switches to present tense "And I want you to stress these things [present tense], so that those who have trusted in God [past tense] may be careful to devote themselves to doing [present tense] what is good. These things are [present tense] excellent and profitable for everyone."

He seems to be describing what "we" were like before conversion from Judaism ("foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another"), which included thinking "we" were justified by "righteous things" instead of Grace alone. I do agree with you, that no good deeds by themselves can save anyone, even done in faith, although I would say that they effect salvation either positively or negatively (emphasis). I just disagree that "good deeds" are what Paul is talking about in his faith vs. works passages. Like you....errr....CS Lewis said. At all moments of our lives we are either growing closer or further away from God by the choices we make. I don't believe this is "works salvation", because the "works" Paul is talking about are "works of the Jewish law".

I go back to the fundamental truth that it isn't about what works can, or cannot justify (as in make a person righteous before God). Paul's argument is not a discussion about works vs. works, or faithful obedience vs. works of the law. It's an argument for the forgiveness of sins vs. works and/or obedience.

" 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. " (Romans 4:6-7 NASB capitals in original)

See, Paul is contrasting the forgiveness of sins with works to be declared righteous before God, not contrasting certain works of faith with works of death to be declared righteous before God. In the passage the forgiveness of sins IS the definition of 'righteousness apart from works' (vs.6). He did not define the gospel as 'righteousness through certain works produced by faith'. We know that David did not do anything to be restored to God after committing the sins of adultery and murder for which the law made no provision to be forgiven. But we do know that after he was forgiven he did do works of righteousness. And that is certainly where we agree:

"13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation; Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness. 15 O Lord, open my lips, That my mouth may declare Your praise. 16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise. 18 By Your favor do good to Zion; Build the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices, In burnt offering and whole burnt offering; Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar." (Psalm 51:13-19 NASB bold mine)

Like you....errr....CS Lewis said.

Oh, those Freudian slips!

 

[JLB]

Paul (along with the scriptures) says he was justified in Genesis 15:
"3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." " (Romans 4:3 NASB capitals in original)

Romans 4:3 does not mention "Justified".

Rather the scripture says it was "accredited to him "as" righteousness.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans 4:3 does not mention "Justified".

Rather the scripture says it was "accredited to him "as" righteousness.


JLB

And here I thought all along you at least knew that 'justified' means 'to be declared righteous'.

 

[JLB]

And here I thought all along you at least knew that 'justified' means 'to be declared righteous'.

I thought all along you knew what "fulfilled" meant.

The scripture was fulfilled WHEN Abraham offered Issac...

Just like when you are given credit and when you actually have the reality of the money you have been accredited.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I thought all along you knew what "fulfilled" meant.

The scripture was fulfilled WHEN Abraham offered Issac...

Just like when you are given credit and when you actually have the reality of the money you have been accredited.

JLB

Okay, good. Now that you're beginning to see that there are two meanings of the word justified....

"2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God." (Romans 4:2 NASB)

"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" (James 2:21 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul: Being justified (MADE to be righteous) by what you believe:
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4: NASB)

James: Being justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by what you do:
"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" (James 2:21 NASB)


Faith in Christ's forgiveness MAKES you righteous in God's sight.
Works SHOW you to be righteous in God's sight.

From http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV:
Strong's G1344 - dikaioō

• to render righteous or such he ought to be
• to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
• to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is salvation right here, faith, hope, and love.
Paul reminds us to keep these until the end as all other things disappear.
If you are born again, you know this, you delight in this, you keep this.

And so you believe that the warnings in the Bible to not fall away from faith in Christ and be lost are what keeps believers in the faith and are actually just theoretical warnings because what they warn against something that can't ultimately happen to those who believe. And so ends the OSAS argument.

"19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:19-23 NASB)

Each of us has to decide for ourselves if it's true or not that if we walk away from the faith that the many warnings of the Bible to not do that, or else be lost, will eventually bring us back to faith before we die. And we have to decide if we're going to teach that to other people. I personally think that's a foolish gamble to make. The cost of thinking all believers will ultimately endure to the end and finding out you're wrong about that far outweighs any benefit you might gain if you're right.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

And so you believe that the warnings in the Bible to not fall away from faith in Christ and be lost are what keeps believers in the faith and are actually just theoretical warnings because what they warn against something that can't ultimately happen to those who believe. And so ends the OSAS argument.

"19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:19-23 NASB)

Each of us has to decide for ourselves if it's true or not that if we walk away from the faith that the many warnings of the Bible to not do that, or else be lost, will eventually bring us back to faith before we die. And we have to decide if we're going to teach that to other people. I personally think that's a foolish gamble to make. The cost of thinking all believers will ultimately endure to the end and finding out you're wrong about that far outweighs any benefit you might gain if you're right.

I guess we each have a role in life.
You are a naysayer, I am not.

 

[dadof10]

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;'

Paul is referring to the group "Christian" with the pronoun 'us'. God has predetermined this group would be saved, yet God did not predetermine which individuals would or would not be in this group. If I choose to obey the gospel, I thereby become a Christian, part of the group, one of the 'us".
As long as I remain faithful (Rev 2:10) I will remain in this "saved" group. If I become unfaithful, I fall from the "saved" group. The group is still and always "saved" but not me for I am no longer one of the "us".

Are you ill-tempered, or a kicker for the Raiders?

 

[dadof10]

No golden ticket, just the plain truth from the scriptures.

Please quote the scripture that shows us an infant can be sprinkled with water by their parents and be saved?

No opinion, no Catholic dogma, just the scripture.


JLB

It's right in between the verse that says we are justified by faith alone and that all true doctrine must be found in scripture. It's right next to the verse that equates "washing of regeneration" with "the gospel message". Even if there was a verse that said "infant baptism saves" I doubt if you would believe it. There is a verse that says the exact words "baptism, which now saves you", yet you don't believe that it does. I don't see how putting the word "infant" in front of it will do any good.

The reason I brought up infant baptism in the first place was contrast Grace alone (infant baptism) with salvation that comes with conditions (accepting, believing in Christ). Most Christians believe we are saved by "Grace alone, through faith alone". You don't hold the first proposition, so the baptism reference doesn't apply. What does apply, are the two verses I posted that prove justification is by ONLY Grace. You have yet to respond to those and have decided to make this about infant baptism. If you would like to discuss infant baptism, I would be glad to unfold the doctrine for you and we could debate it. Either in another thread here, or on the 1 vs. 1 forum. As with most doctrine, it is not sufficient to point at a verse of Scripture and say "see". We need to study. Gotta get back to work...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are a naysayer, I am not.

Me and Paul then, I guess.

"19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:19-23 NASB)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Me and Paul then, I guess.

"19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:19-23 NASB)

Romans 14:9;
"Therefore let us make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification".

 

[JLB]

Okay, good. Now that you're beginning to see that there are two meanings of the word justified....

"2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God." (Romans 4:2 NASB)

"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" (James 2:21 NASB)

Again, Romans 4 is Paul contrast's the works of the law, with the righteousness of faith.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.


since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith...

The one thing that you try to disconnect from the justification process is that faith without obedience [works] is dead.

It is the work of obedience connected to faith that justifies in Paul's doctrine and in James doctrine.

You have misunderstood that Paul contrast's the work's of the law with faith in Jesus Christ, and subsequently you must come up with your "two different" meanings for the work justified.


Whenever you see faith, it always means "faith with the action of obedience".

Your doctrine try's to remove obedience from faith, mistaking the works of the law, or good works [deeds] that earn salvation, for the action of obedience that can not be disconnected from a faith that can save.


Just as the Gospel says Repent and believe the Gospel, which is another way of saying believe in your heart and confess with your mouth.

Not believe all by itself, but repent and believe.

Turn to God, which means turn away from Satan, and believe the good news.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Paul: Being justified (MADE to be righteous) by what you believe:
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4: NASB)

James: Being justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by what you do:
"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" (James 2:21 NASB)


Faith in Christ's forgiveness MAKES you righteous in God's sight.
Works SHOW you to be righteous in God's sight.

From http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV:
Strong's G1344 - dikaioō

• to render righteous or such he ought to be
• to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
• to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

.

Faith in Christ's forgiveness MAKES you righteous in God's sight.

The action of repenting is how we are granted forgiveness of sins. This is how we obey the Gospel.

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, Acts 3:19

The Gospel of the Kingdom of God: Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

It's the modern day "grace" message that gives a license to sin, that omits the repent part of the Gospel, which leaves only believe.

"Believe that Jesus died for your sins and you will be saved forever and ever, and there is nothing you can do to ever lose your salvation, even if you serve Allah..."

It's a half truth Gospel that omits the obedience of repenting, which is turning to God, to commit yourself to him and submit yourselves to obey His laws.

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, Acts 17:30

but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:20

and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:15


But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 or, " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:6-9

Faith without the action of obedience to repent , is dead and can not save.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It's right in between the verse that says we are justified by faith alone and that all true doctrine must be found in scripture. It's right next to the verse that equates "washing of regeneration" with "the gospel message". Even if there was a verse that said "infant baptism saves" I doubt if you would believe it. There is a verse that says the exact words "baptism, which now saves you", yet you don't believe that it does. I don't see how putting the word "infant" in front of it will do any good.

The reason I brought up infant baptism in the first place was contrast Grace alone (infant baptism) with salvation that comes with conditions (accepting, believing in Christ). Most Christians believe we are saved by "Grace alone, through faith alone". You don't hold the first proposition, so the baptism reference doesn't apply. What does apply, are the two verses I posted that prove justification is by ONLY Grace. You have yet to respond to those and have decided to make this about infant baptism. If you would like to discuss infant baptism, I would be glad to unfold the doctrine for you and we could debate it. Either in another thread here, or on the 1 vs. 1 forum. As with most doctrine, it is not sufficient to point at a verse of Scripture and say "see". We need to study. Gotta get back to work...

Infant Baptism is no where to be found in the Bible.

It is a man made doctrine.


JLB