Faith without works........is Faith.

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans 4 is Paul contrast's the works of the law, with the righteousness of faith.

Paul is not contrasting 'faith in your obedience being able to make you right with God' with works. He is contrasting 'faith in the forgiveness of God' with works.

"(A)ll have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." (Romans 3:23-25 NASB bold mine)

But you have it as 'through faith in works of obedience'.

Faith in the forgiveness of sins is the ONLY thing that can make a person righteous in God's sight and qualified for salvation. Our works show us to have that faith. That's why it is expected, even obligatory, that we then do righteous things after we have trusted in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. The woman who loved Jesus and wept on his feet wiping them with her hair did that BECAUSE her many sins had been forgiven, not in order to be forgiven:

"You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven--for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little." " (Luke 7:44-47 NASB)

 

[dadof10]

Infant Baptism is no where to be found in the Bible.

It is a man made doctrine.


JLB

What about Sola scriptura? Is that found in the Bible? If not, I guess it must be a man made doctrine too.

What about justification by Grace alone, which is on topic here? That's found in the Bible. So why don't you believe it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The action of repenting is how we are granted forgiveness of sins. This is how we obey the Gospel.

Your whole problem is you are making literal works of repentance--not just a change of mind about Christ--prerequisites for being born again. Works of repentance are prerequisites for being saved on the Day of Judgment because they indicate the perseverance of the faith in the blood of Christ through which you were born again. Cornelius and his household did no such works of repentance in order to be born again and be filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-46 NASB). None. But they did do them AFTER they believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47-48 NASB).

 

[dadof10]

Don't you hate when that happens? That's no fun, is it?


I go back to the fundamental truth that it isn't about what works can, or cannot justify (as in make a person righteous before God). Paul's argument is not a discussion about works vs. works,

Agreed

or faithful obedience vs. works of the law.

This is pretty hard to deny, especially when Paul contrasts "works of the law" and faith (faithful obedience) so many times.

It's an argument for the forgiveness of sins vs. works and/or obedience.

" 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. " (Romans 4:6-7 NASB capitals in original)

See, Paul is contrasting the forgiveness of sins with works to be declared righteous before God,

Agreed. Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ.

not contrasting certain works of faith with works of death to be declared righteous before God.

I'm not sure what this means.

In the passage the forgiveness of sins IS the definition of 'righteousness apart from works' (vs.6). He did not define the gospel as 'righteousness through certain works produced by faith'. We

know that David did not do anything to be restored to God after committing the sins of adultery and murder for which the law made no provision to be forgiven. But we do know that after he was forgiven he did do works of righteousness. And that is certainly where we agree:

"13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation; Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness. 15 O Lord, open my lips, That my mouth may declare Your praise. 16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise. 18 By Your favor do good to Zion; Build the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices, In burnt offering and whole burnt offering; Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar." (Psalm 51:13-19 NASB bold mine)




Oh, those Freudian slips!

Well, we do agree on that and on your point that "forgiveness of sins IS the definition of 'righteousness apart from works" here, but that's not the point of Paul's use of "the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" in Rom. 4. Again, he is speaking of circumcision.

"So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin."
9 Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, 12 and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but also follow the example of the faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised."

The example really had nothing to do with David's restoration or forgiveness, but about a blessing upon an uncircumcised man. A Gentile. His main point here is that justification is by faith, not circumcision LIKE THE JUDIAZERS WERE CLAIMING IN ACTS 15. This is the underlying theme throughout most, if not all, of Paul's letters. What to do with Gentile converts in the fledgling Church was a huge issue, especially since Paul (and presumably the rest of the Jewish converts) were keeping the law. This is the reason for the first council and it was in this culture that Paul wrote. That's why he gives so much attention to the issue and why, in context, his "faith vs. works" sections really have nothing to do with "good deeds done in faith".

 

[dadof10]

The problem with this is, if Paul and James are using the exact same definition of 'justified' they still disagree and contradict each other on when Abraham was justified:

Paul (along with the scriptures) says he was justified in Genesis 15:
"3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." " (Romans 4:3 NASB capitals in original)

James says he was justified much later in Genesis 22 (after he was circumcised, by the way):
"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? " (James 2:21 NASB)

You're going to argue that Abraham was obedient before he offered up Isaac on the altar, but James says Abraham was declared righteous when he offered up Isaac, not before.

This problem is easily fixed when one realizes that 'justified' has two meanings. It means to be MADE righteous, and it means to be SHOWN to be righteous. Knowing this quickly untangles any perceived contradiction between what justified Abraham, and when. There is no need to invent a doctrine that distinguishes between 'obedient faith works' and 'works of the law' to explain an apparent contradiction in the scriptures.

Dang. And we were doing so well, agreeing and all...lol.

Abraham was justified three times, the two mentioned above and first when he answered the call from God, which was in Gen. 12..

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go." (Heb 11:8)

Obviously, Hebrews 11 is referencing "true faith", so if Abraham has true faith he is by definition, justified. This problem is easily fixed if we realize that justification is a process, not a one time event. Now, I know you believe we can lose salvation, Jethro, my question is can we lose justification? That's what's happening in the case of Abraham. He was "rejustified" twice after he initially had faith in Gen. 12, once by faith and once by "faithful obedience".

Well, we had a good run...

 

[Seabass]

Please show me where baptism is mentioned in John 3:1-5.

Jesus is teaching Nicodemus by using earthly things to teach him about heavenly things.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6

Born of flesh vs born of the Spirit.

No where is baptism mentioned.

Born of water is a reference to natural child birth.

Water has nothing to do with the new birth as it is Spirit that gives birth to spirit.

You doctrine is trying to teach us that water "gives birth" to spirit.

Flesh gives birth to flesh. This is what born of water means.

Spirit gives birth to spirit is where the new birth comes from.

Baptism is about death and identifying ourselves with the likeness of his death and the illness of the resurrection which concerns the body being raised from the dead and our flesh being crucified.


5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Romans 6:5

What is resurrected is the body.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Water does not give birth to spirit.

JLB

The word "water" in Jn 3:5 is a reference to water baptism.

Jn 3:5--------------spirit+++++++++++++WATER>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13-------spirit+++++++++++++BAPTIZED>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5------------spirit++++++++++++LAVER OF WATER>>>>>>>saved

Three parallel "new birth" verses that all say the exact same thing. Note how "water" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13 that is equivalent to 'laver of water- washing of regeneration' of Tts 3:5.

In Jn 3:5 spirit means spirit as water means water. Water is not used figuratively for the physical birth as spirit is not used figuratively for anything either. Note again above how "water" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13 and "washing of regeneration" of Tts 3:5. None of these three equivalent terms have anything to do with the natural birth.
Also note the physical birth has nothing to do with the new birth (1 Pet 1:23) yet Nicodemus has experienced the physical birth but not the new birth, so water would not refer to the physical birth which he already experienced. Also, if 'water' refers to the physical birth, then why would Christ say to a full grown man standing right in front Him.... "unless you have been physically born Nicodemus, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven". Surely Christ would realize a full grown man standing in front of Him had already been physically born.

 

[JLB]

Your whole problem is you are making literal works of repentance--not just a change of mind about Christ--prerequisites for being born again.

Show me the post where I said "you must do works of repentance" in order to be born again?

The action of repenting is how we are granted forgiveness of sins. This is how we obey the Gospel.

Repent means turn to God.

Turning away from God, through unbelief, which the bible calls disobedience, is how we lose our salvation.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14

Cornelius and his household did no such works of repentance in order to be born again and be filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-46 NASB). None. But they did do them AFTER they believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47-48 NASB).

Cornelius and his household repented, and received the forgiveness of sins unto eternal life.

When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." Acts 11:18

Believing the Gospel is obeying the Gospel.

The Gospel is: Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

This message was known to Cornelius and his household, and was the same message that the Disciples believed and obeyed by which they were saved.

35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ--He is Lord of all--
37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: Acts 10:35-37


...God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." Acts 11:18


JLB

 

[Seabass]

j

The problem with this is, if Paul and James are using the exact same definition of 'justified' they still disagree and contradict each other on when Abraham was justified:

Paul (along with the scriptures) says he was justified in Genesis 15:
"3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." " (Romans 4:3 NASB capitals in original)

James says he was justified much later in Genesis 22 (after he was circumcised, by the way):
"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? " (James 2:21 NASB)

You're going to argue that Abraham was obedient before he offered up Isaac on the altar, but James says Abraham was declared righteous when he offered up Isaac, not before.

This problem is easily fixed when one realizes that 'justified' has two meanings. It means to be MADE righteous, and it means to be SHOWN to be righteous. Knowing this quickly untangles any perceived contradiction between what justified Abraham, and when. There is no need to invent a doctrine that distinguishes between 'obedient faith works' and 'works of the law' to explain an apparent contradiction in the scriptures.

Hi,

James and Paul used justified in the same sense.

James 2:21, James pinpoints the time Abraham had final justification when he offered Isaac- "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 2:21. James then says in v23 "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." James is quoting Gen 15:6 and says Gen 15:6 was not fulfilled until Abraham offered Isaac years later. This only goes to prove that justification is not a one time act then done, but instead is a process.

Here is a post I made in another forum on this very issue:

James quotes Gen 15:6 in James 2:23 exactly as Paul did in Rom 4:3 showing that Paul and James are writing about the exact same kind of justification.
James said "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."
Gen 15:6 being that scripture that was fulfill and it was not fulfilled until years later when Abraham offered Isaac which goes to prove that final complete justification does not occur at one moment in time, but is a process. That justification process beginning in Gen 12:1-4 with Abraham's obedient work in moving. (Gen 15:6 never would have happened if not for Abraham's faithful obedience in Gen 12). Abraham believed God when God told him he would have a son, but that did not mean there was nothing else for Abraham to do. A faith only would not justify Abraham for Abraham had to follow through with other works ( Issac was not conceived by Abraham sitting and doing nothing) along with Abraham doing the work of offering Isaac.....all a part of Abraham faith and the justification process until final justification when offering Isaac. Just as under Christ' NT law, one can have faith only but that faith only cannot justify/save him until he follows through with repentance, Lk 13:3,5; confession, Rom 10:9,10 and being baptized, Rom 6:3-7. Without Abraham or us "following through" with the obedient works then faith only can never justify. Could Abraham been justified without following through with offering Isaac? No. Can we today be justified by faith only without following through with repentance, confession and baptism? No. So just as Abraham's faith of Gen 15:6 included works that lead to justification our faith must also include those obedient works that lead to justification.


If Abraham was saved by "belief only" in Gen 15:6 that would mean prior to Gen 15:6 he was a lost, unforgiven reprobate but I see nothing in the context to back this. Gen 15:1 "Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." are not words God would say to a lost unforgiven reprobate. Abraham was ALREADY in a covenant relationship with God prior to Gen 15:6 a covenant Abraham ALREADY ACTED upon back in Gen 12. Gen 15 is just a continuation of Gen 12 with Gen 12 being the beginning of the justification process leading to Gen 15.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Dang. And we were doing so well, agreeing and all...lol.

Abraham was justified three times, the two mentioned above and first when he answered the call from God, which was in Gen. 12..

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go." (Heb 11:8)

Obviously, Hebrews 11 is referencing "true faith", so if Abraham has true faith he is by definition, justified. This problem is easily fixed if we realize that justification is a process, not a one time event. Now, I know you believe we can lose salvation, Jethro, my question is can we lose justification? That's what's happening in the case of Abraham. He was "rejustified" twice after he initially had faith in Gen. 12, once by faith and once by "faithful obedience".

Well, we had a good run...

A few months before I actually got saved I wanted to get saved so I got out of bed one Sunday morning and went to church looking for God. Was I made righteous by the faith to do that? Of course not. Yet, you could easily add my name and the story of my search for God to Hebrews 11:1-40 NASB. My faith did not justify me until later when it got focused and educated in something very specific.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

His main point here is that justification is by faith, not circumcision LIKE THE JUDIAZERS WERE CLAIMING IN ACTS 15. This is the underlying theme throughout most, if not all, of Paul's letters.

But the point I'm making is Paul did not contrast the failure of circumcision and various other lawful observances (Galatians 4:10 NASB) with other works or deeds that do justify. He contrasted the failure of circumcision and various other lawful observances to justify a person with having faith in Christ's blood to forgive sin. See what I'm saying?

Certainly if Paul believed that there were righteous things that we could do besides have faith in God's forgiveness to be made righteous he'd tell us that. Instead he tells us that the way to be made righteous is to have your sins removed through the forgiveness of sin and to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us. Subsequent works of righteousness are then the result of being forgiven and having the righteous nature of Christ placed in us now moving us to do righteous things. Those righteous works showing us to be righteous, not making us righteous, only the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of Christ's righteousness being able to do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

j

Hi,

James and Paul used justified in the same sense.

James 2:21, James pinpoints the time Abraham had final justification when he offered Isaac- "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 2:21. James then says in v23 "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." James is quoting Gen 15:6 and says Gen 15:6 was not fulfilled until Abraham offered Isaac years later. This only goes to prove that justification is not a one time act then done, but instead is a process.

Here is a post I made in another forum on this very issue:

James quotes Gen 15:6 in James 2:23 exactly as Paul did in Rom 4:3 showing that Paul and James are writing about the exact same kind of justification.
James said "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."
Gen 15:6 being that scripture that was fulfill and it was not fulfilled until years later when Abraham offered Isaac which goes to prove that final complete justification does not occur at one moment in time, but is a process. That justification process beginning in Gen 12:1-4 with Abraham's obedient work in moving. (Gen 15:6 never would have happened if not for Abraham's faithful obedience in Gen 12). Abraham believed God when God told him he would have a son, but that did not mean there was nothing else for Abraham to do. A faith only would not justify Abraham for Abraham had to follow through with other works ( Issac was not conceived by Abraham sitting and doing nothing) along with Abraham doing the work of offering Isaac.....all a part of Abraham faith and the justification process until final justification when offering Isaac. Just as under Christ' NT law, one can have faith only but that faith only cannot justify/save him until he follows through with repentance, Lk 13:3,5; confession, Rom 10:9,10 and being baptized, Rom 6:3-7. Without Abraham or us "following through" with the obedient works then faith only can never justify. Could Abraham been justified without following through with offering Isaac? No. Can we today be justified by faith only without following through with repentance, confession and baptism? No. So just as Abraham's faith of Gen 15:6 included works that lead to justification our faith must also include those obedient works that lead to justification.


If Abraham was saved by "belief only" in Gen 15:6 that would mean prior to Gen 15:6 he was a lost, unforgiven reprobate but I see nothing in the context to back this. Gen 15:1 "Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." are not words God would say to a lost unforgiven reprobate. Abraham was ALREADY in a covenant relationship with God prior to Gen 15:6 a covenant Abraham ALREADY ACTED upon back in Gen 12. Gen 15 is just a continuation of Gen 12 with Gen 12 being the beginning of the justification process leading to Gen 15.

You also don't understand the difference between what you have to do to be born again, and what you have to do to be saved on the Day of Wrath. We are born again by believing in the blood of Christ to forgive us and make us righteous all by itself apart from our works (Romans 4:6 NASB). We are saved on the Day of Wrath by our works only insofar as they indicate that we kept believing in the blood of Christ, those works being the evidence of the faith that makes us righteous (Philippians 2:12-15 NASB) , not the source of what makes us righteous. To be saved on the Day of Wrath you need both the source of righteousness (faith--Paul's argument) and the evidence of that righteousness (works--James' argument).

 

[JLB]

We are born again by believing in the blood of Christ to forgive us and make us righteous all by itself apart from our works

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:8-9

Paul teaches that it is the action of obedience, (repent) by confessing with your mouth, the Lord Jesus, together with believing in your heart...

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Show me the post where I said "you must do works of repentance" in order to be born again?

Here:

Paul teaches that it is the action of obedience, (repent) by confessing with your mouth, the Lord Jesus, together with believing in your heart...

JLB

There's no reason to continue to address me directly with this repeated defense. You haven't been able to explain the evidence of Cornelius' household and how they did NOTHING to be born again except listen and believe:

"43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered" (Acts 10:43-46 NASB)

These people will be saved on the Day of Wrath if they continued in what they heard and believed in at first...

" let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

...their works testifying to whether they did that or not:

"12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God" (Philippians 2:12-15 NASB bold mine)

 

[Seabass]

You also don't understand the difference between what you have to do to be born again, and what you have to do to be saved on the Day of Wrath. We are born again by believing in the blood of Christ to forgive us and make us righteous all by itself apart from our works (Romans 4:6 NASB). We are saved on the Day of Wrath by our works only insofar as they indicate that we kept believing in the blood of Christ, those works being the evidence of the faith that makes us righteous (Philippians 2:12-15 NASB) , not the source of what makes us righteous. To be saved on the Day of Wrath you need both the source of righteousness (faith--Paul's argument) and the evidence of that righteousness (works--James' argument).

Rom 4:6 does not eliminate obedient works from salvation. From my earlier post, the "worketh not" refers to one that does not work at flawless law keeping in trying to merit his reward where it would be of debt and not of grace. "Worketh not" therefore does not exclude works of a faithful obedience for in Rom 6:16-18 Paul is very clear in saying "obedience UNTO righteousness" and put "obeyed from the heart" first , then one is freed from sin. Abraham and David were ones that "worketh not" when it came to flawless law keeping but both did have an obedient faith.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

the "without works" refers to apart from the work of flawless law keeping and does not, cannot refer to the work of an obedient faith which David had as Abraham (Heb 11:8,17: Gen 26:5),,how could Abraham be said to be "without works" when he did for a fact have works?...... and James said he was justified by his works? No verse says Abraham was justified "without works".

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

There is not a single verse that tells me God forgives the iniquity, covers sin of those that have faith only -no works but God forgives the iniquity of the obedient that faithfully repent of their sins as David. David was very repentant and remorseful over his sin with Bathsheba.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckons sin.

God either reckons sin to one or reckons one righteous. What is the basis God uses to either reckon sin or reckon one righteous? OBEDIENCE, those that faithfully obey God's will are the ones God reckons righteousness and the disobedient are reckoned unrighteous/sin. The impenitent are not reckoned righteous but are lost Lk 13:3; Rom 2:4,5.


One last point on the Rom 4 context.
Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt."

The "worker" here is the one working in flawless law keeping trying to make his reward not of grace but of debt (merited).

If the "worker" is the one keeping God's law and trying to gain God's approval by flawlessly keeping God's law, then what does that make the one that "worketh not" in Rom 4:5? That means the "him that worketh not" is a LAW BREAKER, an unrighteous man that is not keeping God's law in repenting. God does not justify those that will not repent Lk 13:3; Rom 2:4,5; Eze 18:24 but justifies that that obey (Heb 5:9) in repenting.

Again, the "worker" of Rom 4:4 is the one trying to flawlessly keep God's law to merit his reward is being contrasted to "him that worketh not" being the one who is not keeping God's law at all, a law breaker, an unrighteous man. The "him that "believeth" is not a worker in trying to keep the law flawlessly but has an obedient faith, he sins as Abraham and David both sinned so neither were flawless law keepers, but they maintained an obedient faith in doing God's will.

So we have:

--the worker who is an obedient man in his attempt in flawless law keeping of God's law.
--him that believeth is not a flawless, perfect law keeper but an obedient man in keeping the will of God as Abraham did (Heb 11:8,17; Gen 26:5) but does occasionally sin.
--him that "worketh not" is the law breaker, the unrighteous man who is not keeping the law of God at all.

Why then do some people try and make themselves the one who "worketh not" when he is the law breaker, the unrighteous man?????

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 4:6 does not eliminate obedient works from salvation.

Right. It eliminates it from justification. Works are then necessary to prove that you have been justified by faith apart from your works.

From my earlier post, the "worketh not" refers to flawless law keeping in trying to merit one's reward where it would be of debt and not of grace. Rom 6:16-18 Paul is very clear in saying "obedience UNTO righteousness" and put "obeyed from the heart: first , then one is freed from sin. Abraham and David were ones that "worketh not" when it came to flawless law keeping but both did have an obedient faith.

How is murder 'obedient faith'?
Obviously, the obedient faith they had that made them legally righteous was in regard to believing what God said.

how could Abraham be said to be "without works" when he did for a fact have works?

Because Paul is referring to him being without works in regard to what made him righteous.

and James said he was justified by his works? No verse says Abraham was justified "without works".

Actually, Paul plainly said Abraham was made righteous apart from works:

"2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 6 (J)ust as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works " (Romans 4:2-3,6 NASB)

But you've decided to define 'works' in a way to untangle what at first seems to be a contradiction between Paul who says we are justified by faith apart from works, and James who says we are (also) justified by our works (James 2:24 NASB). But if you would just go with the fact that 'justified' has two different meanings you can see they are not contradicting themselves at all, but are explaining how we are, both, made righteous (justified) by faith, and shown to be righteous (justified) by works. And that we have to be justified in both ways to be saved on the day of wrath. I posted the link to Strong's that explains the two meanings and usage of the word 'justified'.

 

[Seabass]

Right. It eliminates it from justification. Works are then necessary to prove that you have been justified by faith apart from your works.

No verse eliminates obedience works from justification. Obedient works are the very reason one is justified...as Abraham was justified by his obedient work of offering Isaac according to James 2.

How is murder 'obedient faith'?

It's not, but David (and Abraham) were not men that worked at flawless, perfect law keeping of God's law for both sinned yet both maintained faithful obedient belief in God. I am not a flawless, perfect law keeper, I sin. Even though a child of God occasionally sins, he must maintain a faithful obedience in repenting (walk in the light) of those sins so those sins can all be cleansed away/forgiven, 1 Jn 1:7

Because Paul is referring to him being without works in regard to what made him righteous.

James said Abraham was justified by works and Paul did not contradict that. Paul is saying Abraham was one that "worketh not" in flawless law keeping, but instead Abraham had an obedient belief.

Not a single verse says Abraham was justified "without any works at all".
Abraham was justified WITHOUT the work of flawless, perfect law keeping but WAS justified by an obedient belief full of works.

Actually, Paul plainly said Abraham was made righteous apart from works:

"2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 6 (J)ust as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works " (Romans 4:2-3,6 NASB)

But you've decided to define 'works' in a way to untangle what at first seems to be a contradiction between Paul who says we are justified by faith apart from works, and James who says we are (also) justified by our works (James 2:24 NASB). But if you would just go with the fact that 'justified' has two different meanings you can see they are not contradicting themselves at all, but are explaining how we are, both, made righteous (justified) by faith, and shown to be righteous (justified) by works. And that we have to be justified in both ways to be saved on the day of wrath. I posted the link to Strong's that explains the two meanings and usage of the word 'justified'.

Again, when Paul said Abraham was justified "without works" the works Paul speaks about here is the work of flawless law keeping, Abraham was justified without the work of flawless law keeping but WAS justified by a different work, the work of an obedient faith (Heb 11:8,17; Gen 26:5) as in offering Isaac.

Again, in the context of Rom 4 Paul identifies three different type of people:
1) the 'worker' who is an obedient man in his flawless law keeping of God's law to make his reward of debt (merited) and not of grace.
2) 'him that believeth' is not a flawless, perfect law keeper but an obedient man in keeping the will of God as Abraham did (Heb 11:8,17; Gen 26:5) but does occasionally sin.
3) him that "worketh not" is the law breaker, the unrighteous man who is not keeping the law of God at all.

--Abraham was not (1) the 'worker' that obeys God with flawless, perfect law keeping in making his reward not of grace but of debt/merited for Abraham sinned
--Abraham was not (3) him that "worketh not" for Abraham did do works in obeying God, not perfectly but he had an obedient faith (Heb 11:8,17; Gen 26:5)
--Abraham was the "him that believeth" Paul did not say 'him that believeth alone" for Abraham did not have a dead faith only void of works but an obedient faith full of works (Heb 11:8;17; Gen 26:5)

My question still stands: Why then do some people try and make themselves the one who "worketh not" when he is the law breaker, the unrighteous man?????

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is not a single verse that tells me God forgives the iniquity, covers sin of those that have faith only -no works but God forgives the iniquity of the obedient that faithfully repent of their sins as David. David was very repentant and remorseful over his sin with Bathsheba.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckons sin.

God either reckons sin to one or reckons one righteous. What is the basis God uses to either reckon sin or reckon one righteous? OBEDIENCE, those that faithfully obey God's will are the ones God reckons righteousness and the disobedient are reckoned unrighteous/sin. The impenitent are not reckoned righteous but are lost Lk 13:3; Rom 2:4,5.

Partially true. It just needs a little more explanation.

What work of repentance did the servant have to do to receive the forgiveness of his debt in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB? None, of course. But it was required that he produce a work of repentance in keeping with the profound forgiveness of debt he had received, or else have the debt reinstated, which it was. So it is true that the debt of iniquity in the kingdom remains forgiven for the repentant person, not the unrepentant person. But the parable shows us that does not mean that you have to first forgive in order to be forgiven.

God does not justify those that will not repent Lk 13:3; Rom 2:4,5; Eze 18:24 but justifies that that obey (Heb 5:9) in repenting.

Slight correction necessary here: God does not SAVE on the DAY OF WRATH those that will not repent. The parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18:23-35 illustrates for us how there will those who receive the forgiveness of the master in the kingdom of God, but who will then show contempt for that forgiveness as evidenced by their behavior. They will lose their justification--the forgiveness of their sins--and as a result, they will not be saved on the Day of Wrath.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No verse eliminates obedience works from justification. Obedient works are the very reason one is justified...as Abraham was justified by his obedient work of offering Isaac according to James 2.

What works did the household of Cornelius do to be justified? None (Acts 10:43-46).

What work did they do that can show they are really the children of God and thus be saved on the Day of Wrath? Baptism (Acts 10:47-48 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

he must maintain a faithful obedience in repenting (walk in the light) of those sins so those sins can all be cleansed away/forgiven, 1 Jn 1:7

So very true. But the mistake you're making is saying the repentance itself is what makes you righteous (justifies you as Paul uses the word in Romans 4:2-6 NASB). Your faith in that which can make you clean makes you righteous all by itself.

The actual work of repentance only justifies you insofar as it shows you to have that faith (justifies as James' uses the word in James 2:21-24 NASB). "I will show you my faith by my works."" (James 2:18 NASB).

 

[smaller]

Obviously believers who seek their justifications know that they have resistance to same within themselves that they know is there and that they seek to put down. They know that they have potential "catastrophe" within them that could usurp their entire plan to be saved.

I might simply observe that the evil present within any believer can never be justified by any means. And that all attempts to "do so" are straining in the wind. Paul leaves us with a very simple factual observation about himself in this regards in Romans 7:21. And I don't think Paul made any attempts to hide this fact and no attempts to justify that evil present within him. It was on this ground that "he died," daily. 1 Corinthians 15:31

The best that we are offered in this regards, as believers, is to reign over it.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

To say however that the presence of indwelling sin, of evil present, will not continue to engage it's lusts within and attempts to reign over us in our very mortal bodies would be a severe misnomer of understandings. It won't. It can't.

Believers can do and claim whatever they please, but there will never be any work that will justify the presence of evil and indwelling sin within anyone. Jesus condemned sin in sinful flesh and that isn't going to change. (Romans 8:3)

We essentially "emerge" from this internal darkness when we stand upon it and over it, thereby reigning as it's master. And we don't do that via coverups, trying somehow to "fool" Jesus. That won't happen either.

Romans 8:
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.