Faith without works........is Faith.

[JLB]

You seem pretty dead set on never being wrong or open to correction, so there will be no discussion between us about this.

How can you possibly argue with what the scriptures so clearly and plainly say?

Faith without works [obedience] is dead.

Faith all by itself, without the work of obedience is dead.

The obedience part of the Gospel is repent.

14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
Mark 1:14-15

Not believe all by itself, but repent and believe.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

Not believe all by itself, but confess with your mouth and believe with your heart...

It is turning to God [repent] that we must continue to the end... and not turn away or fall away or depart from Him that the bible warns us against.

Remember unbelief is disobedience.

Unbelief means we have turned away from Him, whom we turned to [repent] at the being...

Unbelief is disobedience.

You can not disconnect the two, just as you can not disconnect faith from obedience.

What exactly do you disagree with here?

You keep saying we are not saved by works... I agree.

We are saved by faith. Where I think we disagree is what faith means, and how faith all by itself, without obedience is dead and can not save.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

You see then that a man is justified by works, [obedience] and not by faith only. James 2:24


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What exactly do you disagree with here?

Just because certain works are required to have been done by the time you arrive at the Day of Judgment in order to safely pass through the Judgment does not mean they are the basis upon which you secured that safe passage. Faith in the forgiveness of God all by itself apart from works is the basis for that safe passage through the Judgement (because that's how you access God's grace). Works done because of that faith are the evidence God uses on the Day of Judgment to measure if you have that faith or not.

"8 ...God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace." (2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB)

 

[JLB]

Actually, the condition of faith requires 2 things: an object (something or someone in which to believe) and a purpose for believing.

So, saving faith requires the object to be the Lord Jesus Christ, and the purpose is for salvation, or obtaining eternal life.

1 Pet 1:9 says it this way: for you are receiving the GOAL of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Believing in Jesus Christ FOR a better job, life, car, etc, etc is NOT saving faith. Nor is believing in Christ FOR being a better person saving faith.

receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

receiving the "reality" of your faith, the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9

The very definition of faith is: the substance of the thing hoped for, and the evidence of the thing not yet seen.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 1:11

If you have faith for salvation now, then you are hoping for the reality of salvation, because it is not yet seen.

Paul explains:

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

WE are waiting for the reality of our salvation, with perseverance, steadfast unto the end.


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Oh, yes you have, Rollo.
God sent his Rolls Royce Limousine of faith to you. You climbed in. It takes you to the Father's house where He pays out a generous payday for which you did nothing to earn but which you got simply because you took the ride of faith to get it.

"(W)e have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand." (Romans 5:1-2 NIV)

Some people say water baptism is that ride. JLB says literally confessing with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord' is that ride. But believing all by itself is that ride. Those other things are just the expected things that the believer will do, the absence of which on the Day of Judgment shows that person to have either never believed to begin with, or to have stopped believing somewhere along the line, and as a result never got baptized and never confessed Jesus as Lord.


Stay in the limo and you are saved now and will be saved on the Day of Judgment. Your increasing obedience to God is the evidence that you are firmly seated where you should be.

My oh my Jethro, you sound just like C.S.Lewis in his book, "The Great Divorce".

 

[JLB]

Just because certain works are required to have been done by the time you arrive at the Day of Judgment in order to safely pass through the Judgment does not mean they are the basis upon which you secured that safe passage. Faith in the forgiveness of God apart from works is the basis for one's safe passage through the Judgement. Works done because of that faith are the evidence God uses to measure that faith.

I'm not referring to good works, but the obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

Obedience to the holy command of the Gospel which is repent.

Obeying the Gospel.

Not good works later on as you grow in Christ.

The initial conversion. The transferring from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of God.

Repent; turn to God to receive forgiveness of sins, unto eternal life.

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins... Acts 26:18

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, Acts 3:19


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My oh my Jethro, you sound just like C.S.Lewis in his book, "The Great Divorce".

Interesting.

 

[MarkT]

Are works necessary? Absolutely. If you don't forgive those who trespass against you, then neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. Mt. 6:14,15 If you see your brother in need, and you don't minister to him, you can be cast out. Mt. 25:40-46. If you judge others, then you will be judged. Luke 6:37 Prayer is a work. Jesus taught us how to pray. Mt.6:9-13 So James says faith without works is dead. Now look at what Paul is saying concerning the works of the law ie. circumcision, eating with unwashed hands, animal sacrifices, etc. These works do not save.
Galatians 2:16
yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.

So referring to Paul to contradict James is a bit silly. Paul is talking about the written code given to Moses and the rituals and the sacrifices that he calls the works of the law, while James is talking about the commandments of our Lord Jesus Christ; two different things. So you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24

 

[FreeGrace]

Just because certain works are required to have been done by the time you arrive at the Day of Judgment in order to safely pass through the Judgment does not mean they are the basis upon which you secured that safe passage.

What passages actually specify these "certain works" that are "required by the time one arrives at the Day of Judgment"?

(Edited, A&T guidelines state in part: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah)

Faith in the forgiveness of God all by itself apart from works is the basis for that safe passage through the Judgement (because that's how you access God's grace).

Correct. And this is not a work in any stretch of the meaning.

Works done because of that faith are the evidence God uses on the Day of Judgment to measure if you have that faith or not.

(Edited, A&T guidelines state in part: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah)

 

[FreeGrace]

(Edited, A&T guidelines state in part: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What passages actually specify these "certain works" that are "required by the time one arrives at the Day of Judgment"?

Besides water baptism, fulfilling all the commands of God summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' will be the works that God requires of his people that he will use as evidence of their faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

"14 ...sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14 NASB)
[See Matthew 25:1-46 NASB, too]

God expects us to live up to the level of sanctification that we have achieved at any one moment:

"(L)et us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained." (Philippians 3:16 NASB)

So, this is not about being perfect for the Day of Judgment. It's about having faith in Christ, and continuing to have it, as evidenced by one's growth in an ever-increasing holiness. People who aren't growing, or aren't growing anymore, don't believe, or don't believe anymore. Thus, we are told to prove our faith by what we do:

"14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory (in my reward) because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. " (Philippians 2:14-16 NASB parenthesis mine)

How we behave is how we know we have believed, and are continuing to believe, and will be ready to enter into Judgment on that Day.

 

[dadof10]

That would be like saying I earned my weekly paycheck because I got in a limo sent by my boss to go to his office to get it.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB

We don't have to wonder if believing is among the works Paul said can't justify a person. He plainly distinguishes between believing and all other work. Our error would be to start moving various works from the 'all other works' category over to the side of believing.

Hi, Jethro. Nice to talk with you again.

On the topic of salvation, we mostly agree. We both believe that belief is NECESSARY for salvation, that it takes an ACT of the will, that it can be REJECTED, that it's a COOPERATION with the Grace of God and that it must have GOOD WORKS attached. Where we disagree is that I think the concept or idea or belief system outlined here carries to other acts of the will also. If a person thinks that "cooperating with the will of God in doing good deeds" effects a person's salvation is "works salvation", then I say, what's the difference? Isn't it the same concept? If I believe that I must make an act of the will and do X in order to be saved, isn't that the same concept that says we must make an act of the will and have faith in order to be saved?

I also don't think Paul had in mind baptism, good deeds, keeping the commandments, etc. when he wrote the word "works". He is speaking specifically about works of the Mosaic law. Therefore, I disagree with you that Paul "plainly distinguishes between believing and all other work". He certainly plainly distinguishes between faith and works of the law. He also plainly distinguishes between humble submission to the will of God and doing works with expectation of reward (i.e. "earning"), which is ANY deed including those above. But he NOWHERE contrasts faith and baptism, or faith and charity, or faith and good deeds, nor does he compare "works" and good deeds. I think that's reading into the text.

 

[dadof10]

But none of those access God's grace of salvation. Only believing does that.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

So the argument is not about what deeds are the basis for gaining salvation, but rather what deeds did Paul say accesses God's salvation. He says believing. And Cornelius' household is the Biblical example of how to be saved purely on the power of believing to access that salvation.

"...Baptism, which now saves you" is pretty straightforward. So is the example of Cornelius' household.

 

[smaller]

Works "prove" the existence of faith. But no one does "sheep" works 24/7. Nor are "works" the basis of salvation, but are an after effect of LOVE. We live in love (the proof of faith works by and through love, Gal. 5:6) because we have been and are loved by God in Christ.

Titus 3:
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

James says no different. You say you have faith? Then prove you have faith by loving works. It would be literally impossible to prove that anyone hasn't done at least ONE work of love in their lives. Impossible. Yet believers condemn each others to potential hell over works or lack thereof, which I personally wouldn't consider being very loving on their parts whatsoever.

Works that are done of out fear of personal destruction may not even qualify as a work of "love" would they be? Maybe more like a work to save one's own hide, and quite self centered and self justifying. A work to boast to God about, in order to secure one's permanent station. All such notions of self justification works will be burned away for the stubble claim that it is:

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

No one has paid the "Works Price" that Jesus has, past tense, Paid, nor is that even possible.

In any case, any believer would be wise to listen to what The Spirit says to the churches, as this is more than likely what we all will hear in the end:

Revelation 3:2
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

I don't expect to be handing out too many, if any, excuses when this is over, because I have none. There is no "excuse" from my end that will be sufficient to "save me."

 

[JLB]

Because salvation is by Grace alone. It is by Grace that the infant was given to Christian parents, kept alive long enough to make it to the Church, brought to the water and baptized. He didn't earn any of it and has no concept of "earning" anything. Isn't "choosing to believe" something that has to be done in order to obtain salvation? Isn't it an act of the will? How is this different from "earning"?

Salvation is by Grace alone?

Could you share a scripture with me that says this.

The scriptures say -

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

How can an infant believe that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead?

Is there a separate set of conditions for infants?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

A person must have faith in order to be saved.

In order to have faith, they must hear the Gospel...

When they hear the Gospel they must believe...

13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:13-14

An infant is not capable of these things.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

I doesn't matter whether one "expects" a reward or not.

Huh? If a person "accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior" EXPECTING to be saved because he has EARNED it by doing what Christ wanted, wouldn't that be EXACTLY what Paul means by earning salvation?

That would dependent upon how well that person was taught what the Bible says about rewards. But clearly all our efforts, under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit falls under obedience and faithfulness and will be rewarded.

We earn rewards.

I debated NOT using the word "rewards" here. I thought it might be misunderstood. I was using the word "rewards" to mean "something (e.g. salvation) earned instead of a freewill gift". Let me rephrase.

Certainly there are things that humans do that we don't expect to be paid back for, so there are DEEDS that a person does out of love for God that wouldn't fall under Paul's definition of "works", right?

 

[dadof10]

Let's see.
I was baptized as a baby.
I'm sometimes obedient.
I don't know of any rewards I've earned.
And I've certainly never had a ride in a limo so my boss could pay me.
So, am I saved?

If you're asking me, I have no idea. You were saved at baptism, but I'm sure (as we all have) you lost that initial justification through sin.

 

[dadof10]

Salvation is by Grace alone?

Could you share a scripture with me that says this.

Sure:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

THROUGH faith, not AND faith. We were given faith as a freewill gift from God. We didn't earn it or anything else that we receive THROUGH faith. This verse (and others like it) make it clear that salvation is a freewill gift from God given through faith, but not faith ALONE.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

How can an infant believe that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead?

Is there a separate set of conditions for infants?

No, not any separate set of conditions. There are no conditions, that would be earning. Baptism is the normal way of salvation due to the Fall. We are made capable of justification (and truly justified if we happen to die) at baptism. After we reach the age of reason, faith justifies us. We MUST cooperate with Grace throughout our lives or risk damnation because we CAN lose salvation through sin, but even this cooperation is Grace.

There are only two ways to receive something given. Either it is a freewill gift, or it is earned. There is no middle ground that I can see. It seems that Paul condemns the one (God being put in obligation to man), so the only way left is Grace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"...Baptism, which now saves you" is pretty straightforward. So is the example of Cornelius' household.

"15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." (1 Timothy 2:15 NIV) is pretty straightforward, too. But I don't think anyone would insist that a woman has to have a baby in order to be forgiven her sins and saved on the Day of Judgment.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi, Jethro. Nice to talk with you again.

Good to talk to you, too, my good friend.

On the topic of salvation, we mostly agree. We both believe that belief is NECESSARY for salvation, that it takes an ACT of the will, that it can be REJECTED, that it's a COOPERATION with the Grace of God and that it must have GOOD WORKS attached.

Yes. We are in agreement here.

Where we disagree is that I think the concept or idea or belief system outlined here carries to other acts of the will also. If a person thinks that "cooperating with the will of God in doing good deeds" effects a person's salvation is "works salvation", then I say, what's the difference? Isn't it the same concept? If I believe that I must make an act of the will and do X in order to be saved, isn't that the same concept that says we must make an act of the will and have faith in order to be saved?

The point is, there is only one 'act' of the will that lays hold of God's forgiveness. And that is believing in that forgiveness. There is no righteous thing you can do to qualify yourself for God's complete forgiveness. The things worthy of death require death. There's nothing short of death that can somehow set a person free from the due penalty for things deserving death. That's why sin debt can only be removed through God's gracious gift of forgiveness, made possible through Christ's substitutionary death. And we receive it by simply......well......receiving it. That's the difference between believing as an 'act' of the will to receive forgiveness/salvation and all other acts of the will to receive forgiveness/salvation, even if those other acts of the will are borne of faith in God.

So all those other acts are not required to be forgiven in a single moment of salvation and transformation. They are powerless to solicit God's forgiveness for sin guilt. Those other acts--all other righteous acts besides believing itself--are required for salvation on the Day of Judgment, not because they have power to solicit forgiveness, but because they are the expected and obligatory way that belief in God's forgiveness acts. Those acts being absent indicate that somewhere along the line you stopped believing and trusting in the forgiveness of Christ. So it is only in that way that works are required for salvation on the Day of Judgment, and not required for being born again in a single moment.

I also don't think Paul had in mind baptism, good deeds, keeping the commandments, etc. when he wrote the word "works". He is speaking specifically about works of the Mosaic law. Therefore, I disagree with you that Paul "plainly distinguishes between believing and all other work". He certainly plainly distinguishes between faith and works of the law. He also plainly distinguishes between humble submission to the will of God and doing works with expectation of reward (i.e. "earning"), which is ANY deed including those above. But he NOWHERE contrasts faith and baptism, or faith and charity, or faith and good deeds, nor does he compare "works" and good deeds. I think that's reading into the text.

But he does distinguish between being made righteous through believing in the forgiveness of your sins, and being made righteous through doing righteous things: Everything I wrote here is based on this single passage:

" he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NIV)

Gotta run.........brain surgeries are stacking up......God bless.

 

[JLB]

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

THROUGH faith, not AND faith. We were given faith as a freewill gift from God. We didn't earn it or anything else that we receive THROUGH faith. This verse (and others like it) make it clear that salvation is a freewill gift from God given through faith, but not faith ALONE.

So you see by your own words that whoever is saved, is done so by grace through faith, of which infants, don't qualify, because a person must hear the Gospel and receive the faith that comes by hearing and then believe what they hear...and furthermore confess with their mouth Jesus is Lord, then they can be Baptised.

Not just having an adult sprinkle some water on them.

JLB