Faith without works........is Faith.

[smaller]

I know, we've been down this road before. If my memory were better, I would have seen it coming. As it stands, I didn't remember until you posted this...lol I actually said "Oh, that's right..." out loud sitting here at my computer. My wife asked "What's right?"

Anyway, I just don't think the "Judaizers" were attempting to make the Gentile converts uphold "love your neighbors as yourself", nor do I think anyone was even talking about upholding things in the moral or natural law. Just the Mosaic law, specifically circumcision, which Jews REQUIRED for acceptance into Judaism and, by extension, Heaven. Paul's letters were written in response to specific things that were going on at the time. I don't think many of the "faith alone" adherents take that into consideration when interpreting.

There are so many Christ PLUS formula's in play in the various christian sects I've lost count of them all.

Ultimately I've come to see all of these various demands as man or men collectively posturing themselves as God over other people, demanding them to bow down to their various formulas OR ELSE.

It's a symptom of the dire internal human condition. I'd call it more megalomania than legitimate theology. Some, in fact MANY christian people just love to think they and their views have ultimate power over (their OWN) or other people's eternal destiny, and it's a very real internal affliction that has divided the churches from the beginning.

The typical theological logical fallacy that is employed usually goes thusly. God gave us "all truth" therefore we have "all truth." And they then go about constructing the various Christ PLUS formulas which are used to justify themselves and to condemn, even other believers, sadly.

Paul laid out this matter quite clearly. He only saw in part. Therefore "all truth" was not even in his own hands. It is not, I repeat NOT possible to have ALL TRUTH with only PART SIGHT.

It is logically impossible to make such claims of having "ALL TRUTH", if we apply Paul's facts.

Any claims of part seer's individually or collectively as being "all truth" are automatically suspect. Any believer who claims to speak truthfully WILL speak from the seat of PART SIGHT. So there is the first clue about who is honest and who is not so honest.

So, what is a believer who only see's in PART to do?

Live in FAITH.

There is no Christ PLUS formula that will save anyone. As much as many would consider they have and hold in all of our various sectarian views. If we all saw honestly, there would be no divisions.

We will have ALL TRUTH when we are ALL CHRIST. Until that day arrives, we wait in anticipation of His Perfection, and not our own. IN the meantime we should live honestly and speak honestly that we are all, factually, IMPERFECT no matter what Christ PLUS formula's we apply.

At least faith is not deceptive in this way. If faith can not allow a person to be honest, then what good is it?

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

On this ground, of being still sinners, we are all quite entirely and woefully equal. There is no sinner who is better than any other sinner as much as some formula makers try to claim otherwise.

Paul takes us all to the VERY BOTTOM to rise up IN FAITH, that we would STAND in no other position of ourselves.

 

[smaller]

Jn 8:24-----------believing>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Acts 2:38---------repentance>>>>>>>>>>saves
Rom 10:9,10----confession>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Pet 3:21-------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then believing must include repentance, confession and baptism.

The list of "how to" be saved can be and is vastly more extensive, were we to apply the various scriptural sights, not only to the above, but also to the following:

Psalm 7:10
My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

Let's then add to the above, have an upright heart. And we can continue to add:

Psalm 18:27
For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.

Be Afflicted.

Psalm 34:6
This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.

Be poor and cry to the Lord.

Psalm 34:18
The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Have a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

Psalm 37:40
And the Lord shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

Trust in Him.

Psalm 44:3
For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Have Gods favor.

Psalm 44:6
For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.

Don't trust in bow in sword.

Psalm 55:16
As for me, I will call upon God; and the Lord shall save me.

Call upon God.

Psalm 69:35
For God will save Zion, and will build the cities of Judah: that they may dwell there, and have it in possession.

Be in a particular geographical location.

Psalm 72:4
He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

Be needy.

Psalm 76:9
When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah.

Be meek.

Psalm 80:3
Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

Have Gods Face to shine upon you.

Psalm 106:8
Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.

Be saved because God wants to save.

Psalm 145:19
He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

Fear and cry unto God.

Isaiah 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Be an Israelite.

Isaiah 45:22
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Look unto God.

Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Lose your life for Christ.

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 8:24
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Have hope.

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Be delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Be saved by receiving the gift of faith through grace.

Are we going to compile each and every one of these as some kind formulas or say that any given one or all of them are formulamatic requirements? OR say that any given scriptural approach is insufficient? The last time I posted one of these "lists" I think it contained about 60+ different "ways" to be saved, so the above list doesn't encompass them all.

 

[smaller]

When any particular "method" of compliance for salvation comes with an "or else" it is nothing more than a LAW itself.

We have then the law of confession, OR ELSE
The law of repentence, OR ELSE
The law of baptism, OR ELSE
The law of sectarian church attendance, compliance to the dictates and loyalty, OR ELSE

And these various supposed theological "laws" are what drive christian sectarianism. Sectarian chrisitianity in nearly all of it's present forms is legalism on steroids. It would put Judaism legalism to shame in this regards.

The O.T. dictate to follow ALL the laws or be stoned has been replaced with the steroid versions of christian legalism which are now follow all the sects rules OR ELSE, be potentially burned alive forever.

OR ELSE is not and can not be "of faith." It is merely another LAW.

The law of FAITH eliminates justifications via LAW.

Romans 3:
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

The boating of pharisees for tithing and fasting has been replaced by the boasting of "I" did this to justify myself, baptism, confession, repentance, speak in tongues, or any number of other boasts, and THEREFORE "I" am not LIKE other men.

The man who was justified in Gods sight observed the HARD FACT, that he IS a sinner, and asked for Gods Mercy, understanding that said MERCY is always sorely needed and no ground to boast upon.

 

[Seabass]

Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Lose your life for Christ.

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 8:24
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Have hope.

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Be delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Be saved by receiving the gift of faith through grace.

Are we going to compile each and every one of these as some kind formulas or say that any given one or all of them are formulamatic requirements? OR say that any given scriptural approach is insufficient? The last time I posted one of these "lists" I think it contained about 60+ different "ways" to be saved, so the above list doesn't encompass them all.

Hi,

Yes, there are many NT verses that deal with salvation that mention many things that save:

grace saves Eph 2:5
faith saves Eph 2:8
the engrafted word saves James 1:21
hope saves Rom 8:24
preaching saves 1 Cor 1:21
blood of Christ saves, Rev 1:5
believing saves Jn 8:24
repenting saves Lk 13:3,5
confessing saves Rom 10:9,10
baptism saves 1 Pet 3:21
obeying saves Heb 5:9

I probably left some things out and some over-lapping, but it can be seen that MANY things contribute to one's salvation and not any one thing ONLY.

 

[smaller]

Hi,

Yes, there are many NT verses that deal with salvation that mention many things that save:

grace saves Eph 2:5
faith saves Eph 2:8
the engrafted word saves James 1:21
hope saves Rom 8:24
preaching saves 1 Cor 1:21
blood of Christ saves, Rev 1:5
believing saves Jn 8:24
repenting saves Lk 13:3,5
confessing saves Rom 10:9,10
baptism saves 1 Pet 3:21
obeying saves Heb 5:9

I probably left some things out and some over-lapping, but it can be seen that MANY things contribute to one's salvation and not any one thing ONLY.

Indeed. Faith, by definition, can not be made into a "law." It is A MYSTERY, and as such it is both personal and will remain without any solid definitions. The very best we can see about "faith" IS, it is perceived by those who work in love.

1 Timothy 3:9
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

 

[dadof10]

The point being you think 'love your neighbor as yourself' is not included in the works of the law that Paul says can not justify (make a person righteous). But how does fulfilling the law of 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) make a person righteous the way that having your unrighteousness removed through forgiveness makes a person righteous? I know how it can show a person to have the righteousness of Christ through having their sins forgiven in Christ.

I have a little bit of time now, so can expand on my view a little more to avoid misunderstandings, and introduce another wrinkle to the conversation. "Loving your neighbor", or any other good deed can't "make a person righteous". What doing good deeds does is allow God to increase righteousness within the believer. God is constantly showering us with His grace, but because we have free will, we can reject this Grace thereby harming our relationship with Him and doing damage to our soul. I had a friend who put it this way. The entirety of the doctrine of free will can be summed up as "God allowing us to reject His Grace." The example in James should suffice. If I walk by a person in need, God's Grace moves me to help him. I can accept, by my free will, which will increase His sanctifying Grace in my life, thereby allowing Him to turn my soul into something capable of enjoying Heaven ("create in me a pure heart, oh Lord"). If I reject His Grace and refuse to help, I am choosing self over God, thereby doing damage to my soul and hindering God's plan for my life, which is Eternal Life. Note that, as your quote from Philippians says, it's God "who is at work in you, both to will and to work". His Grace moves me to action, then His Grace sanctifies my soul, "so that no one may boast". Of course, in all this, faith is being taken for granted. Nothing done outside an obedient faith can effect the person for the good. When I realize my sin, I repent and ask for forgiveness (a "work?"), in which case my relationship with God is restored and my soul is again capable of enjoying Heaven. It's all about relationship, JB. We damage it through our free will actions, then we allow God to repair it through our free will actions.

Having your sins forgiven is what changes a person, not the work of doing righteous things like 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB.

If having your sins forgiven is "having your unrighteousness removed", thereby justifying you, what happens when you commit actual sins? This view necessarily leads to the fact that when we sin, we are becoming "unrighteous" and therefore "unjustified". We need (as Abraham did) to be "rejustified". I know you reject OSAS, so it seems like you would also reject OJAJ too.

Let me add another wrinkle here as we are talking about righteousness. I have been tossing this around in my head for some time now and would like your thoughts, since I value your opinion.

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:19-20)

There are four things to notice here:

1) There seems to be degrees of righteousness, either of a qualitative or quantitative nature. This is obvious by the word "surpasses". The scribes and Pharisees had some amount of righteousness. Note Jesus doesn't say "your righteousness must be of a different kind..." He says there has to be either more or a higher quality of the same kind.

2) Righteousness is salvific, so therefore justifies. Jesus says entry into the "kingdom of Heaven" is dependent upon this righteousness, which the scribes and Pharisees have some measure of.

3) Righteousness has to do with obediently keeping and teaching "the commandments". He ties the two verses together with "For..."

4) Righteousness has nothing to do with faith, as the scribes and Pharisees had none. Strange, huh?

The first three dovetail with my view of Grace, faith and justification above. The last one, not so much. What do you think?

 

[Seabass]

Indeed. Faith, by definition, can not be made into a "law." It is A MYSTERY, and as such it is both personal and will remain without any solid definitions. The very best we can see about "faith" IS, it is perceived by those who work in love.

1 Timothy 3:9
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

What do you make of Rom 3:27 where Paul wrote "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." where "law of faith" is another term for the gospel?

 

[smaller]

What do you make of Rom 3:27 where Paul wrote "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." where "law of faith" is another term for the gospel?

There is no personal boasting available for a gift, given to us. Faith is not something we conjured up on our own accord, as something we can boast to God about.

Where Paul said where is boasting, he meant, there isn't any, and points out that "we" in our faith are no different in regards to being sinners than any Jew or Gentile. We are no better than them, as sinners.

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise:

Paul did not go on to provide us 'boasting ground' as it was eliminated above. No, in no wise are we better. Paul actually went even further to the bottom of the sinner barrel in 1 Tim. 1:15 and did so AFTER salvation. Few believers care to "rush" to that conclusion, but that IS exactly where Paul went. If believers want to brag about being christians, then they should stand in Paul's claim and see how many people would be impressed by them, being the chief of sinners in their "faith."

There are sound ROCK SOLID theological reasons that Paul arrived at this personal conclusion that I've covered extensively in other threads, that being primarily, that where the Word is sown, Satan enters the hearts to steal, destroy, steal, kill and deceive. (All the seed parables, Mark 4:15 being a good sampler to personally engage.)

An Apostle will be treated to MUCH MORE of these types of "internal engagements" with the Tempter than the average Joe believer, and therefore Paul did not see "himself" as just "himself." He rightfully saw himself engaged with internal battles with the tempter, placing the greatest evil entity on the planet within him to make such battle.

And that WAS what Paul reveals to us in his truthful discourses.

 

[JLB]

You seem to have forgotten that you were arguing that one had to repent in a very specific way to be born again, which Cornelius and his household did not do in Acts 10:43-46 NASB.

Confessing Jesus as Lord, is what Paul said to be saved.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I'm not arguing with Paul, you are.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Does the scripture say confession is made unto salvation, or does the scripture say believe unto salvation?


All I'm doing is showing the work of obedience involved in being saved by faith.

Repent is the command of the Gospel. Repent means turn to God.

You believe the Gospel when you obey this command.

The obvious way to obey this command is to acknowledge Jesus as your Lord, since He is the Lord of the Kingdom of God.

That is what the word believe means: Commit, Trust, believe


Strong's Number: 4100 - Pisteuo

Definition

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

King James Word Usage - Total: 248
believe 239, commit unto 4, commit to (one's) trust 1, be committed unto 1, be put in trust with 1, be commit to one's trust 1, believer 1


JLB

 

[JLB]

You seem to have forgotten that you were arguing that one had to repent in a very specific way to be born again, which Cornelius and his household did not do in Acts 10:43-46 NASB.

Now it's up to you to prove your claim that Cornelius did not repent, from the scriptures.


JLB

 

[Seabass]

There is no personal boasting available for a gift, given to us. Faith is not something we conjured up on our own accord, as something we can boast to God about.

Where Paul said where is boasting, he meant, there isn't any, and points out that "we" in our faith are no different in regards to being sinners than any Jew or Gentile. We are no better than them, as sinners.

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise:

Paul did not go on to provide us 'boasting ground' as it was eliminated above. No, in no wise are we better. Paul actually went even further to the bottom of the sinner barrel in 1 Tim. 1:15 and did so AFTER salvation. Few believers care to "rush" to that conclusion, but that IS exactly where Paul went. If believers want to brag about being christians, then they should stand in Paul's claim and see how many people would be impressed by them, being the chief of sinners in their "faith."

There are sound ROCK SOLID theological reasons that Paul arrived at this personal conclusion that I've covered extensively in other threads, that being primarily, that where the Word is sown, Satan enters the hearts to steal, destroy, steal, kill and deceive. (All the seed parables, Mark 4:15 being a good sampler to personally engage.)

An Apostle will be treated to MUCH MORE of these types of "internal engagements" with the Tempter than the average Joe believer, and therefore Paul did not see "himself" as just "himself." He rightfully saw himself engaged with internal battles with the tempter, placing the greatest evil entity on the planet within him to make such battle.

And that WAS what Paul reveals to us in his truthful discourses.

Hi,

Rom 3:27 "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith."
Rom 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

It can be seen from these two verses (especially verse 28) that Paul is talking about two different laws. Paul speaks about the OT law of Moses which he calls "law" and the NT gospel which he calls "law of faith".

(Part of the context of the Roman epistle is that Paul is writing to Jews in Rome that had become Christians and is warning those Jews about returning back to the OT law of Moses.)

The boasting Paul is talking about in verse 27 is the work in flawless law keeping that the Jews tired to do under the OT law of Moses. That OT law made complete justification impossible. All it allowed for was flawless law keeping. That OT law did not even require faith (Gal 3:12) so those Jews faithlessly went about trying to keep the law flawlessly, perfectly and if one could do that he would be sinless before God whereby his reward would be of debt (merited) and not of grace Rom 4:4). Of course the Jew would always fail for he would sin as Paul points out in Rom chapters 2 and 3 the group "Jew" are sinners.

So this boasting of flawless law keeping, is it excluded by what law? Excluded by the law of Moses OR excluded by the law faith (NT gospel)?

That boasting is not excluded by the OT law of Moses for that law did allow for faithless perfect law keeping. Then that boasting is excluded by the law of faith (NT gospel) for this NT law requires that for one to be completely justified, ALL his sins must cleansed away by the blood of Christ and then can stand before God justified IN CHRIST. If Christ had to die for me where all my sins could then be taken away so I can be completely justified before God, then my justification is certainly nothing for me to boast about when someone had to die for me for to be completely justified.

Paul is NOT saying one is justified APART from obeying any law at all. Paul is saying complete justification does not come by the law of Moses (deeds of the law v28) but does come by the LAW of faith (NT gospel). Obedience to that NT law of faith/gospel is required for one to be in Christ and completely justified before God.

Paul points out in Romans chapters 1-3, the theme being "NO JUSTIFICATION" for the Jews and Gentiles that lived under those OT laws for those OT laws could not bring complete justification/not be freed from sin therefore they (Jew and Gentile) were all "under sin". By the end of Romans chapter 3 verses 24 and following, Paul gives the answer for this no complete justification, "under sin" problem and that answer being: CHRIST. Anyone, Jew or Gentile, that "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine" (baptized for remission of sins) are then "freed from sin" (Rom 6:17-18) and no longer "under sin". So why would any of those Jews Paul was writing to in Rome want to go back to the OT law of Moses where they could not be completely justified by the deeds of that OT law? They need to stay where they are IN CHRIST where they ARE completely justified,

 

[childeye]

The entirety of the doctrine of free will can be summed up as "God allowing us to reject His Grace." We damage it through our free will actions, then we allow God to repair it through our free will actions.

Respectfully. I don't think that God's grace is rejected as you suggest. I believe it's taken for granted. That's what vanity is in scripture. So it's not by any freewill choice that we become unthankful and vain. Romans 1:21.

 

[smaller]

Hi,
Paul is NOT saying one is justified APART from obeying any law at all. Paul is saying complete justification does not come by the law of Moses (deeds of the law v28) but does come by the LAW of faith (NT gospel). Obedience to that NT law of faith/gospel is required for one to be in Christ and completely justified before God.

So, Christ PLUS law? Is that your final answer?

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Paul was also abundantly clear about his status as the chief of sinners post salvation. Is that where "obedience" led Paul? It would seem so. At least the man was honest, a Godly trait for sure.

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

 

[dadof10]

Respectfully. I don't think that God's grace is rejected as you suggest. I believe it's taken for granted. That's what vanity is in scripture. So it's not by any freewill choice that we become unthankful and vain. Romans 1:21.

Sure, there is some of that too. But if it's not driven by selfishness, freely choosing self over God, what brings vanity about?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now it's up to you to prove your claim that Cornelius did not repent, from the scriptures.


JLB

So you did forget your own argument.

We all know they repented....they got saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. What you can't show is they repented in the very specific way you say one must first repent in order to then be born again:

"44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days." (Acts 10: NASB)

We can see from the passage that the only repenting they did was change their mind about the Christ. IOW, the only thing they did to be born again was believe the gospel, and then they were given the spiritual gift of tongues. No confessing with their mouth first in order to be born again. No water baptism first in order to be born again. Nothing first in order to be born again except believing.
On the Day of Wrath, that is when the evidence of their continued belief--their deeds--will be required to be saved and pass safely through the Judgment.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If having your sins forgiven is "having your unrighteousness removed", thereby justifying you, what happens when you commit actual sins? This view necessarily leads to the fact that when we sin, we are becoming "unrighteous" and therefore "unjustified". We need (as Abraham did) to be "rejustified". I know you reject OSAS, so it seems like you would also reject OJAJ too.

When we sin after we are born again we do not lose our legal declaration of righteousness, we lose our positional righteousness. It's the difference between only needing your feet washed, not your whole body because you've already had a bath (John 13:10 NASB). That is as long as that sin is because of weakness or ignorance. You know, the growing pains of growing up into Christ.

We can only lose our legal declaration of righteousness by denying Christ altogether, willfully trampling on the blood of Christ (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB). It is impossible to brought back to repentance after doing that, though I personally would not discourage anyone who's done that who wants to come back to Christ from trying. Every now and again people come into these forums talking about how they used to believe but then walked away from the faith but now want to come back to the faith but simply can't believe.

 

[Seabass]

So, Christ PLUS law? Is that your final answer?

Yes.

Christ does have a law, His NT law:
Gal 6:2 "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

Paul said he was under law to Christ:
1 Cor 9:21 "To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law."

Everyone is under law:
1 Jn 3:4 "..... for sin is the transgression of the law."
If I was not under law then I could not sin for there is no law for me to transgress.

In Rom 3:27,28 Paul did not exclude ALL law from being justified, but he excluded the OT law of Moses and included the LAW of faith which is the gospel.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Paul was also abundantly clear about his status as the chief of sinners post salvation. Is that where "obedience" led Paul? It would seem so. At least the man was honest, a Godly trait for sure.

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

In Phil 3:9 Paul is saying his righteousness is through the faith of Christ (NT gospel, the law of faith) and not by his own righteousness (works of merit) of the law (flawless law keeping of the law of Moses as Paul did when he was Saul to try and merit salvation).

 

[smaller]

Yes.

Christ does have a law, His NT law:
Gal 6:2 "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

Paul said he was under law to Christ:
1 Cor 9:21 "To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law."

Everyone is under law:
1 Jn 3:4 "..... for sin is the transgression of the law."
If I was not under law then I could not sin for there is no law for me to transgress.

In Rom 3:27,28 Paul did not exclude ALL law from being justified, but he excluded the OT law of Moses and included the LAW of faith which is the gospel.

In Phil 3:9 Paul is saying his righteousness is through the faith of Christ (NT gospel, the law of faith) and not by his own righteousness (works of merit) of the law (flawless law keeping of the law of Moses as Paul did when he was Saul to try and merit salvation).

The very hard part of all of these types of postures is this. We, as believers, try quite vainly to justify the "entirety" of ourselves. That is simply not possible. We all have sinned and have, present tense, sin indwelling our flesh. (Do I really need to quote what any believer should know by heart?)

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Now, seriously, are any of us going to try to stand before God in Christ and try to justify sin? Or to say "we don't have sin?" I might think that to be quite a fruitless lie to engage in. Nobody is going to be pulling the proverbial wool over God in Christs eyes.

We all seem to want so badly to see the "entirety" of ourselves, presently and fully justified. That is not the case nor is that even possible.

God is blessing and condoning and overlooking the sin of NO PERSON. It is quite the opposite. So, I might simply ask, why not just be truthful before our Maker, and abide in His Mercy and Grace, because of the fact? And not expect or even ask for our "sin" to be blessed and overlooked.

When any believer looks at themselves honestly, they will, by Godly Nature, be abhorred over this present reality, and will be compelled AWAY from SIN, even while having it.

No, I personally, do not expect God in Christ to see me any other way than the way I honestly am, A SINNER, saved entirely by GRACE and the recipient of Divine Mercy because of this fact, for which Christ gave His Own Life. I am not able nor am I about to take away the very basis of my need for Grace and Mercy, that being the condition, present tense, of having SIN.

Paul does an excellent job at kicking out the legs of all of us in this regards, making the entire basis for our salvation abide in faith, and not by "works." Every good work we do comes attached with the fact of having evil present within us. Therefore all such works will not avail to salvation and none of such works are or can be perfect. When we do good, that is good, and God can not be and is not against good.

But God is also simultaneously against the evil present within any of us. Therefore we have no justifications of our own to hand over to Him or to boast about before Him.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[smaller]

What possible spiritual reason could any believer trust themselves, by their own works, to save them? It would seem to me that such presentations are about as far away from the Gospel as could be possible. Such postures come with a DIVINE CURSE:

Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man,

And beyond this, what possible gain is there to be had by condemning another believer to potential hell, via lack of sufficient works? What kind of WORK is that in such adherents? Talk about falling out of the frying pan into the fire.

Jeremiah 17:7
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.

2 Corinthians 1:9
But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

 

[Seabass]

The very hard part of all of these types of postures is this. We, as believers, try quite vainly to justify the "entirety" of ourselves. That is simply not possible. We all have sinned and have, present tense, sin indwelling our flesh. (Do I really need to quote what any believer should know by heart?)

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Now, seriously, are any of us going to try to stand before God in Christ and try to justify sin? Or to say "we don't have sin?" I might think that to be quite a fruitless lie to engage in. Nobody is going to be pulling the proverbial wool over God in Christs eyes.

We all seem to want so badly to see the "entirety" of ourselves, presently and fully justified. That is not the case nor is that even possible.

God is blessing and condoning and overlooking the sin of NO PERSON. It is quite the opposite. So, I might simply ask, why not just be truthful before our Maker, and abide in His Mercy and Grace, because of the fact? And not expect or even ask for our "sin" to be blessed and overlooked.

When any believer looks at themselves honestly, they will, by Godly Nature, be abhorred over this present reality, and will be compelled AWAY from SIN, even while having it.

No, I personally, do not expect God in Christ to see me any other way than the way I honestly am, A SINNER, saved entirely by GRACE and the recipient of Divine Mercy because of this fact, for which Christ gave His Own Life. I am not able nor am I about to take away the very basis of my need for Grace and Mercy, that being the condition, present tense, of having SIN.

Paul does an excellent job at kicking out the legs of all of us in this regards, making the entire basis for our salvation abide in faith, and not by "works." Every good work we do comes attached with the fact of having evil present within us. Therefore all such works will not avail to salvation and none of such works are or can be perfect. When we do good, that is good, and God can not be and is not against good.

But God is also simultaneously against the evil present within any of us. Therefore we have no justifications of our own to hand over to Him or to boast about before Him.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The fact that men sin is proof that men are under some law. We today are under the law of Christ > the law of faith. Violating that law of faith is sin. Your sinning,my sinning proves we are both under law.

Eph 2:9 is a verse that is too often taken out of context, isolated from all other verses then the claim is made salvation is 'not of works' when Paul never said such but instead said one obeyed from the heart then freed from sin Rom 6:17,18)

The 'not of works' of Eph 2:9 eliminates the work of flawless keeping of the OT law. The Jew tried to keep that law flawlessly and if he could then his reward is not of grace but of debt (merited) and that would be something he could boast about. As Paul said in Rom 3:27,28 that boasting is excluded not by works of the OT law but by the law of faith (NT gospel). The 'not of works' of EPh 2:9 does not, cannot eliminate the work done in obedience to the will of God. Heb 11:7,8,17 Noah nor Abraham had nothing to boast abut due to their obedience to God. They were both saved by grace, not of their own works of merit......which they could then boast about if they were saved by their own works of merit. Yet being saved by grace is nothing to boast about for being in need of grace shows one has sin and fallen short...which is nothing to boast about. God's free gift of grace comes with conditions and being obedient to those conditions do not, cannot earn the grace nor can one boast about those obedient works.