Faith without works........is Faith.

[Jethro Bodine]

Let me add another wrinkle here as we are talking about righteousness. I have been tossing this around in my head for some time now and would like your thoughts, since I value your opinion.

Thank you. I'm flattered.
I value your insights as well.

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:19-20)

There are four things to notice here:

1) There seems to be degrees of righteousness, either of a qualitative or quantitative nature. This is obvious by the word "surpasses". The scribes and Pharisees had some amount of righteousness. Note Jesus doesn't say "your righteousness must be of a different kind..." He says there has to be either more or a higher quality of the same kind.

I agree in degrees of righteousness.
We Protestants are taught to understand righteousness only in terms of the righteousness that is not our own that God gives to us. That's that legal declaration of righteousness I referred to earlier. It's purely a legal proclamation of righteousness. It has nothing to do with how righteous or unrighteous our behavior has been. It is a free gift that comes from God, not as wages paid for righteous work (Romans 3:21-22 NASB). And it is the basis upon which we are set apart and qualified for salvation.

What we Protestants fail miserably at is understanding righteousness in terms of what we actually do that is righteous. James talks about "the seed whose fruit is righteousness" in James 3:18 NASB, meaning the fruit, or result of the seed of God in us is righteous behavior. It's clear that the harvest of our righteousness is going to vary among us. We all are producing the fruit of the knowledge of the kingdom in different degrees of productivity. And each according to how little or much 'seed', or 'talents' we have received. Some are producing no return, while "some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." (Matthew 13:23 NASB). So I definitely agree with a varying degree of righteousness among us--not a varying degree of Christ's righteousness given for free to us, but a varying degree of actual righteous behavior among us.

As you can see in this thread and many others, we Protestants don't understand our obligation to produce something in keeping with the measure we have received. We erroneously think we can produce zero return, or less than expected of us on that which God has entrusted to us and it's still going to be okay when the Master returns. The thinking being, salvation is so utterly not of works that it doesn't matter what you do with the knowledge of God that you have received (and it's supposedly a losing battle to be righteous anyway). Not true at all. True, persevering belief in Christ produces fruit, and it produces it according to the measure of faith that produced it. Righteous fruit is how God will measure our faith in Christ on the Day of Judgment.

There's probably not much that you disagree with so far, right? Let's talk about different 'kinds' of righteousness when I get back. Matthew 23:25 NASB gives us insights into that matter. I gotta run. I will finish addressing that and the rest of your post as time permits.

 

[dadof10]

When we sin after we are born again we do not lose our legal declaration of righteousness, we lose our positional righteousness. It's the difference between only needing your feet washed, not your whole body because you've already had a bath (John 13:10 NASB). That is as long as that sin is because of weakness or ignorance. You know, the growing pains of growing up into Christ.

That begs the question, there are people who are legally righteous who are lost? Are there justified people in Hell?

We can only lose our legal declaration of righteousness by denying Christ altogether, willfully trampling on the blood of Christ (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB). It is impossible to brought back to repentance after doing that, though I personally would not discourage anyone who's done that who wants to come back to Christ from trying. Every now and again people come into these forums talking about how they used to believe but then walked away from the faith but now want to come back to the faith but simply can't believe.

I've known people like that too. I have also known of people (not personally) who have gone into even devil worship who have come back to Christ.

 

[dadof10]

I agree in degrees of righteousness.
We Protestants are taught to understand righteousness only in terms of the righteousness that is not our own that God gives to us. That's that legal declaration of righteousness I referred to earlier. It's purely a legal proclamation of righteousness. It has nothing to do with how righteous or unrighteous our behavior has been. It is a free gift that comes from God, not as wages paid for righteous work (Romans 3:21-22 NASB). And it is the basis upon which we are set apart and qualified for salvation.

I agree. I would only add that it's at baptism that our initial justification happens, and that leaves an indelible mark on the soul ("we are set apart and qualified for salvation"). Semantics...

What we Protestants fail miserably at is understanding righteousness in terms of what we actually do that is righteous.

It used to be WAY worse, I think. I've been messing around on Protestant forums since the mid 90's and it was extremely rare to run across someone who says what you, JLB and others say concerning justification and good deeds.Now, it's pretty common. It's just my opinion and purely anecdotal, though.

James talks about "the seed whose fruit is righteousness" in James 3:18 NASB, meaning the fruit, or result of the seed of God in us is righteous behavior. It's clear that the harvest of our righteousness is going to vary among us. We all are producing the fruit of the knowledge of the kingdom in different degrees of productivity. And each according to how little or much 'seed', or 'talents' we have received. Some are producing no return, while "some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." (Matthew 13:23 NASB). So I definitely agree with a varying degree of righteousness among us--not a varying degree of Christ's righteousness given for free to us, but a varying degree of actual righteous behavior among us.

Excellent. Well put.

As you can see in this thread and many others, we Protestants don't understand our obligation to produce something in keeping with the measure we have received. We erroneously think we can produce zero return, or less than expected of us on that which God has entrusted to us and it's still going to be okay when the Master returns. The thinking being, salvation is so utterly not of works that it doesn't matter what you do with the knowledge of God that you have received (and it's supposedly a losing battle to be righteous anyway). Not true at all. True, persevering belief in Christ produces fruit, and it produces it according to the measure of faith that produced it. Righteous fruit is how God will measure our faith in Christ on the Day of Judgment.

Again, I agree, although there lately seems to be more stress being put on the believer actually being righteous than just sitting back and accepting it. It also seems that more and more are coming to the conclusion that the "righteous fruit" does affect salvation.

There's probably not much that you disagree with so far, right? Let's talk about different 'kinds' of righteousness when I get back. Matthew 23:25 NASB gives us insights into that matter. I gotta run. I will finish addressing that and the rest of your post as time permits.

Sounds good.

 

[smaller]

The fact that men sin is proof that men are under some law. We today are under the law of Christ > the law of faith. Violating that law of faith is sin. Your sinning,my sinning proves we are both under law.

True. Indwelling sin can be nothing BUT disobedience. Perhaps an important recognition point. Trying to make indwelling sin legal or under Grace is a theological fallacy of massive proportions.

Eph 2:9 is a verse that is too often taken out of context, isolated from all other verses then the claim is made salvation is 'not of works' when Paul never said such but instead said one obeyed from the heart then freed from sin Rom 6:17,18)

To reign over sin is not elimination of the fact of same, as noted by Paul in vs. 12, same chapter, Romans 6.

The 'not of works' of Eph 2:9 eliminates the work of flawless keeping of the OT law.

There is no "keeping," period. The law was given precisely to reveal, expose, condemn and even inflame and arouse sin into ACTION. Jesus, The Living Word, did no differently. Romans 8:13 and every scripture where demons revealed themselves before Him.

This is ALL done to establish faith in Him as thee only place to stand. Not faith in ourselves, our laughable attempts at legal obedience or our own works based salvation. His Work was and will ever continue to be entirely sufficient. 2 Cor. 12:9

The Jew tried to keep that law flawlessly and if he could then his reward is not of grace but of debt (merited) and that would be something he could boast about. As Paul said in Rom 3:27,28 that boasting is excluded not by works of the OT law but by the law of faith (NT gospel). The 'not of works' of EPh 2:9 does not, cannot eliminate the work done in obedience to the will of God.

None of that personally earned any believer their place or provided boasting ground. Paul's boasting was in fact the opposite of what most are able to see, that being, him being the "chief of sinners" post salvation. (1 Tim. 1:15) So boast about that if you prefer. It was Paul's secret sauce, that pummeled him into weakness.

There were very sound solid scriptural reasons that Paul HAD to keep his flesh/body in CHECK. And that was because of the presence of indwelling sin (Romans 7:17-21) which Paul INTERESTINGLY described as "NO LONGER I" twice in that stretch of personal self examinations.

"No longer I" is not about to cooperate with any believer. Nor is evil present going to cooperate with God (Romans 7:21), nor is the messenger of Satan, the tempter, going to cooperate in any of these various events (2 Cor. 12:7). This is the internal personal dynamic tension that christian life is stretched upon. And we are all guaranteed for resistance within because of these facts. In the light of these facts, we might learn to see ourselves accurately. It's not just about "us" as individuals. There are in fact wicked powers and wicked agents who are being JUDGED by God in adversity, in our lives. These, we carry to our own respective crosses.

God has no respect to the evil conscience in any person and "all" have this affliction, made and given to them by God no less. It's only a question of who is honest about it and who isn't. Paul was exceptionally, personally honest. A Divine Gift that was given to him.

Every "works" for salvation adherent at this board can work themselves to their end and no, not one will eliminate the presence of indwelling sin in the flesh or the fact of a resisting evil conscience.

Psalm 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the Lord his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Heb 11:7,8,17 Noah nor Abraham had nothing to boast abut due to their obedience to God. They were both saved by grace, not of their own works of merit.....

Well, then we would agree. Abraham viewed himself as "dust and ashes." Gen. 18:27. Job, the same, who abhorred himself. Job 42:6. The Lord even sought to kill Moses at one point. Exodus 4:24.

.which they could then boast about if they were saved by their own works of merit.

Obviously they weren't. Moses in fact died and did not enter into the promised land because of unbelief. Are any of us going to claim Moses didn't make it to heaven because of unbelief? Uh, I would hope NOT.

Yet being saved by grace is nothing to boast about for being in need of grace shows one has sin and fallen short...which is nothing to boast about. God's free gift of grace comes with conditions and being obedient to those conditions do not, cannot earn the grace nor can one boast about those obedient works.

Then WHY not be obedient to the facts you don't care to hear about?

 

[childeye]

Sure, there is some of that too. But if it's not driven by selfishness, freely choosing self over God, what brings vanity about?

Personally I believe vanity begins with a false image of God. For example when we envision God as a ruler that gets to always have His way, while everyone else beneath Him must submit to Him through fear of death, that is a corrupt image of god that inspires vanity. In contrast, the Christ reveals that God is ruling from the bottom. From there He is holding everything up and is the servant of all. He is the hardest working and the last to eat. This would not inspire vanity.

Vanity can take on many forms, but essentially it is taking God for granted. We don't realize nor value all that God has bestowed upon us when He created us. Everyone will always ask why is there evil, and never do we think to ask why is there good. This is vanity.

I notice that Satan loves his beauty in comparison to all others beneath him, even though God made him all that he is, just like every other creature from the greatest to the least. This is vanity.

I notice that mankind has a tendency to find something wrong with every situation. Things just aren't ever good enough, and we can never find contentment. It seems we won't be happy unless we become God Himself. And this is vanity. We always imagine that things can be better, just as in the Garden of Eden. I watch my grandchildren want the toy the other one has, even though it doesn't matter what toy it is. This is vanity.

We simply take God for granted just like all children take their parents, and all that they give us for granted. Vanity is a product of the circumstance of being a created being and not understanding the Holy quality of our Maker. Vanity finds fault where there is no fault. Vanity tries to fix what's not broken. Therefore I think it comes from a false image of god. Romans 8:20.

 

[Seabass]

True. Indwelling sin can be nothing BUT disobedience. Perhaps an important recognition point. Trying to make indwelling sin legal or under Grace is a theological fallacy of massive proportions.


To reign over sin is not elimination of the fact of same, as noted by Paul in vs. 12, same chapter, Romans 6.


There is no "keeping," period. The law was given precisely to reveal, expose, condemn and even inflame and arouse sin into ACTION. Jesus, The Living Word, did no differently. Romans 8:13 and every scripture where demons revealed themselves before Him.

This is ALL done to establish faith in Him as thee only place to stand. Not faith in ourselves, our laughable attempts at legal obedience or our own works based salvation. His Work was and will ever continue to be entirely sufficient. 2 Cor. 12:9

The Jews went about in an attempt to perfectly keep the law of Moses.

Many verses (Duet 17:19; Deut 30:10; Joshua 23:6) are a few verses where they were told to keep the law of God.

None of that personally earned any believer their place or provided boasting ground. Paul's boasting was in fact the opposite of what most are able to see, that being, him being the "chief of sinners" post salvation. (1 Tim. 1:15) So boast about that if you prefer. It was Paul's secret sauce, that pummeled him into weakness.

There were very sound solid scriptural reasons that Paul HAD to keep his flesh/body in CHECK. And that was because of the presence of indwelling sin (Romans 7:17-21) which Paul INTERESTINGLY described as "NO LONGER I" twice in that stretch of personal self examinations.

"No longer I" is not about to cooperate with any believer. Nor is evil present going to cooperate with God (Romans 7:21), nor is the messenger of Satan, the tempter, going to cooperate in any of these various events (2 Cor. 12:7). This is the internal personal dynamic tension that christian life is stretched upon. And we are all guaranteed for resistance within because of these facts. In the light of these facts, we might learn to see ourselves accurately. It's not just about "us" as individuals. There are in fact wicked powers and wicked agents who are being JUDGED by God in adversity, in our lives. These, we carry to our own respective crosses.

God has no respect to the evil conscience in any person and "all" have this affliction, made and given to them by God no less. It's only a question of who is honest about it and who isn't. Paul was exceptionally, personally honest. A Divine Gift that was given to him.

Every "works" for salvation adherent at this board can work themselves to their end and no, not one will eliminate the presence of indwelling sin in the flesh or the fact of a resisting evil conscience.

Psalm 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the Lord his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.



Well, then we would agree. Abraham viewed himself as "dust and ashes." Gen. 18:27. Job, the same, who abhorred himself. Job 42:6. The Lord even sought to kill Moses at one point. Exodus 4:24.



Obviously they weren't. Moses in fact died and did not enter into the promised land because of unbelief. Are any of us going to claim Moses didn't make it to heaven because of unbelief? Uh, I would hope NOT.



Then WHY not be obedient to the facts you don't care to hear about?

If there is no law then there is no such thing as indwelling sin.

 

[JLB]

So you did forget your own argument.

We all know they repented....they got saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. What you can't show is they repented in the very specific way you say one must first repent in order to then be born again:

"44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days." (Acts 10: NASB)

We can see from the passage that the only repenting they did was change their mind about the Christ. IOW, the only thing they did to be born again was believe the gospel, and then they were given the spiritual gift of tongues. No confessing with their mouth first in order to be born again. No water baptism first in order to be born again. Nothing first in order to be born again except believing.
On the Day of Wrath, that is when the evidence of their continued belief--their deeds--will be required to be saved and pass safely through the Judgment.

All I need to show is the work of obedience in the doctrine of faith, which is what I have said all along.

Believe and repent.

Not believe all by itself.

Paul taught that confession is made unto salvation, not believing all by itself.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Whenever we see the phrase believe and be saved, we can know that obedience is just a part of believing as faith and obedience.

Not good works, but the obedience of faith.

The same obedience that Abraham exercised to be justified by God, is the same obedience we also must exercise to be saved.

Obeying the Gospel command to repent is how we are saved.

Not believing all by itself.

Repent and believe the Gospel.
Mark 1:15

JLB

 

[dadof10]

Personally I believe vanity begins with a false image of God. For example when we envision God as a ruler that gets to always have His way, while everyone else beneath Him must submit to Him through fear of death, that is a corrupt image of god that inspires vanity. In contrast, the Christ reveals that God is ruling from the bottom. From there He is holding everything up and is the servant of all. He is the hardest working and the last to eat. This would not inspire vanity.

Vanity can take on many forms, but essentially it is taking God for granted. We don't realize nor value all that God has bestowed upon us when He created us. Everyone will always ask why is there evil, and never do we think to ask why is there good. This is vanity.

I notice that Satan loves his beauty in comparison to all others beneath him, even though God made him all that he is, just like every other creature from the greatest to the least. This is vanity.

I notice that mankind has a tendency to find something wrong with every situation. Things just aren't ever good enough, and we can never find contentment. It seems we won't be happy unless we become God Himself. And this is vanity. We always imagine that things can be better, just as in the Garden of Eden. I watch my grandchildren want the toy the other one has, even though it doesn't matter what toy it is. This is vanity.

We simply take God for granted just like all children take their parents, and all that they give us for granted. Vanity is a product of the circumstance of being a created being and not understanding the Holy quality of our Maker. Vanity finds fault where there is no fault. Vanity tries to fix what's not broken. Therefore I think it comes from a false image of god. Romans 8:20.

Ok, so vanity is brought on by having a false image of God and taking Him for granted, but unless we ACT on it (like the example of your grandkids), there is no sin. There must be a freewill decision to act. Our learned concept of God, no matter how convoluted, is not a sin. Also, it seems you are saying that if our concept of God is right (believing in Christ), then we won't be vain or prideful. This is simply false. All Christians fall into the sin of pride at some point. We all choose self over God.

 

[childeye]

Ok, so vanity is brought on by having a false image of God and taking Him for granted, but unless we ACT on it (like the example of your grandkids), there is no sin. There must be a freewill decision to act.

Respectfully, I don't think you're getting this. Vanity isn't something we can refuse to act on, even because it's a vain measure of righteousness through works. To think we don't have vanity, is vanity. To think we can have it, and not act out of it, is vanity. Our vanity is God's source of finding for us a pure humility as He reveals Himself.

Our learned concept of God, no matter how convoluted, is not a sin.

On the contrary, a corrupt image of God is the greatest sin upon which all other sin exists.

Also, it seems you are saying that if our concept of God is right (believing in Christ), then we won't be vain or prideful. This is simply false. All Christians fall into the sin of pride at some point. We all choose self over God.

First off, I'm not saying Christ is my concept or anyone else's concept of God. Christ is the Image God sent by God Himself for us to believe in. His ways are Holy and True. Yes we all do have a carnal pride, but that won't matter as we become convinced that the greatest is the one who serves the rest. Philippians 2:5, Philippians 2: 6-7.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That begs the question, there are people who are legally righteous who are lost? Are there justified people in Hell?

'No' to both questions. The signature of legal justification is the new nature--the new nature that does righteous things. But so many in the Protestant church say justified people don't have to do anything righteous. That's like saying a person who goes swimming doesn't have to be wet. Or like saying Abraham didn't have to offer up Isaac on the altar. Which is the point of James' discourse about faith and works: You're kidding yourself if you claim to have faith but you have no corresponding work to validate the presence of that faith.

"(S)how me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)

I've known people like that too. I have also known of people (not personally) who have gone into even devil worship who have come back to Christ.

I'm of the opinion that God knows exactly why a person turns their back on the salvation they have received in Christ. I think even that can be done in ignorance and weakness, not just willfully with the express intent of knowingly not wanting to be a part of the kingdom anymore. I knew a woman who in weakness left the faith to marry an unbeliever. She was accepted back by God, her Spirit-filled life being the evidence of that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Note Jesus doesn't say "your righteousness must be of a different kind..." He says there has to be either more or a higher quality of the same kind.

I would say he was referring to a different 'kind' of righteousness--outward external righteousness vs. a righteousness of the heart and mind.

The Pharisees excelled in cleaning the outside of the cup--the outer man. Which is what I believe is meant by the 'righteousness of law' (Philippians 3:6 NASB). They cleaned the outside of the cup so as to appear righteous, which outwardly they certainly were. But inside they were greedy and covetous:

"23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (Matthew 23:23-28 NASB bold mine)

So, yes, I do see two 'kinds' of righteousness. Only the latter, the righteousness of the inside of the cup signifies the presence of justifying faith.

 

[smaller]

If there is no law then there is no such thing as indwelling sin.

Yes, I've observed the intentions of many to scurry to the place of sinlessness when they observe the checkmate of scripture in these regards.

The Word has made His conclusion in these matters:

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

No "work" is done apart from that continuing reality. The conclusion of scripture can not be moved or changed for any person on earth.

Therefore our faith can be established upon none other than The Everliving Sinless One, Jesus Christ, and not of ourselves or anything of us.

 

[smaller]

I would say he was referring to a different 'kind' of righteousness--outward external righteousness vs. a righteousness of the heart and mind.

The Pharisees excelled in cleaning the outside of the cup--the outer man. Which is what I believe is meant by the 'righteousness of law' (Philippians 3:6 NASB). They cleaned the outside of the cup so as to appear righteous, which outwardly they certainly were. But inside they were greedy and covetous:

"23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (Matthew 23:23-28 NASB bold mine)

So, yes, I do see two 'kinds' of righteousness. Only the latter, the righteousness of the inside of the cup signifies the presence of justifying faith.

I might observe that IF one is led to not fall into the trap that the pharisee's fell headlong into, THEN perhaps one must concede to the facts that they denied. IF on the other hand, we too DENY Jesus' statement of facts to the pharisee's, THEN we are no different than they were.

"inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness"

I believe Paul did exactly that exercise in many examples, particularly with 1 Tim. 1:15, his summary.

Grace is unmerited favor, meaning there is no merit from or within any receiver.

IF we observe the workings of God in the O.T. the delivery of God always comes to the poor, those in bondage and captivity. And if they needed a collective reminder, they got it. Israel was delivered into Egypt by God forcing them into same. It was no different when Babylonian captivity came to them, or Roman captivity for that matter.

Paul brilliantly ILLUMINATES this matter in Acts 13:
16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

The Israelites NEVER conceded that the enemies were in their own land, that is, there body, in the form of indwelling sin and evil present. They could not because they were blinded by same, internally. (Mark 4:15, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 4:4, 2 Cor. 3:14)

And that same type of blindness can and does return to many, even and especially after belief.

There are many examples in the Old Testament, that when particular Grace receivers submitted to their captors or their enemies, even served them, they were blessed of God. These would be for example, Jacob in his encounter with Esau in Genesis 33:10, Joseph and the entire house of Israel in Genesis 47:25 when serving Pharaoh, Daniel when serving the king of Babylon, etc.

Even Jesus submitted Himself to the holder of the power of DEATH, precisely to condemn same.

John 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

God Himself has made this entire present construct and given it to Satan, precisely to condemn these unseen agents:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

God Himself has made this construct and placed us all within it, with dire internal weaknesses, that His Grace and Power may rest upon us, and that we would know His Mercies.

Most believers who have found Grace in the Eyes of God, were found when they had NOTHING of themselves left. Even when they were in the midst of being murderers for example, with Saul to Paul.

Proverbs 3:34
Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

The notion that God is forced to render us anything by our works is NOT GRACE. They are merely the works of those who think that God now owes them something for their work, i.e. their salvation, and these same DENY GODS GRACE to others for their supposed lack of "working for Grace."

 

[Seabass]

Yes, I've observed the intentions of many to scurry to the place of sinlessness when they observe the checkmate of scripture in these regards.

The Word has made His conclusion in these matters:

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

No "work" is done apart from that continuing reality. The conclusion of scripture can not be moved or changed for any person on earth.

Therefore our faith can be established upon none other than The Everliving Sinless One, Jesus Christ, and not of ourselves or anything of us.

Are you under any law?

 

[smaller]

Are you under any law?

The indwelling sin within all people remains condemned under the Laws of God, believer or unbeliever.

Grace has made exactly ZERO people sinless. Grace has 'sanctified' ZERO sin nor blesses any sin, seen or unseen.

 

[WIP]

Please remember to consider the forum guidelines. Post the Scripture that supports your differing points of view so it is understood that your views are more than just an opinion but rather ground in Scripture.

 

[smaller]

My apologies. I meant to cite in my last post, 1 John 1:8, Romans 6:1, Romans 6:12, Romans 7:13, Romans 7:21 etc.

I do not consider it a sin, to admit that I am a sinner, saved by Grace. To me this is "truthful discourse" amongst us.

I do find it somewhat strange to have to make and prove this case with other believers. It is probably the easiest scriptural ground to prove to any of us, and firmly establishes that we are saved by Grace Alone, through Christ Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do find it somewhat strange to have to make and prove this case with other believers. It is probably the easiest scriptural ground to prove to any of us, and firmly establishes that we are saved by Grace Alone...

"...working through love" (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

Faith working through love: This is the truth it seems that most Protestant Christians miss entirely.

'Do nothing' faith is not the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works. The faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that will then be seen in what it does good, to some extent or anther, depending on our stage of growth in Christ.

This is what James is warning us about. A 'do nothing' faith is not the faith that can save. It is a faith--like that of the demons--that has no power to justify. It's lack of works being the evidence of the powerlessness of that 'faith' to justify us as having the faith in Christ that saves. But so many Christians will ignore this truth and be satisfied that their faith that does not solicit the born again experience (as evidenced by their lack of works) is sufficient to save them because they hold fast to their erroneous understanding of what it means for justification to be based on faith in Christ apart from works. Willingly oblivious to the fact that it is works that show you to have the faith that makes one righteous apart from works.

 

[Seabass]

The indwelling sin within all people remains condemned under the Laws of God, believer or unbeliever.

Grace has made exactly ZERO people sinless. Grace has 'sanctified' ZERO sin nor blesses any sin, seen or unseen.

So you agree with me that we today are all under the NT law of Christ as Paul said he was under the law to Christ, 1 Cor 9:21?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I might observe that IF one is led to not fall into the trap that the pharisee's fell headlong into, THEN perhaps one must concede to the facts that they denied. IF on the other hand, we too DENY Jesus' statement of facts to the pharisee's, THEN we are no different than they were.

"inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness"

I believe Paul did exactly that exercise in many examples, particularly with 1 Tim. 1:15, his summary.

Grace is unmerited favor, meaning there is no merit from or within any receiver.

IF we observe the workings of God in the O.T. the delivery of God always comes to the poor, those in bondage and captivity. And if they needed a collective reminder, they got it. Israel was delivered into Egypt by God forcing them into same. It was no different when Babylonian captivity came to them, or Roman captivity for that matter.

Paul brilliantly ILLUMINATES this matter in Acts 13:
16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

The Israelites NEVER conceded that the enemies were in their own land, that is, there body, in the form of indwelling sin and evil present. They could not because they were blinded by same, internally. (Mark 4:15, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 4:4, 2 Cor. 3:14)

And that same type of blindness can and does return to many, even and especially after belief.

There are many examples in the Old Testament, that when particular Grace receivers submitted to their captors or their enemies, even served them, they were blessed of God. These would be for example, Jacob in his encounter with Esau in Genesis 33:10, Joseph and the entire house of Israel in Genesis 47:25 when serving Pharaoh, Daniel when serving the king of Babylon, etc.

Even Jesus submitted Himself to the holder of the power of DEATH, precisely to condemn same.

John 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

God Himself has made this entire present construct and given it to Satan, precisely to condemn these unseen agents:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

God Himself has made this construct and placed us all within it, with dire internal weaknesses, that His Grace and Power may rest upon us, and that we would know His Mercies.

Most believers who have found Grace in the Eyes of God, were found when they had NOTHING of themselves left. Even when they were in the midst of being murderers for example, with Saul to Paul.

Proverbs 3:34
Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

The notion that God is forced to render us anything by our works is NOT GRACE. They are merely the works of those who think that God now owes them something for their work, i.e. their salvation, and these same DENY GODS GRACE to others for their supposed lack of "working for Grace."

I don't know if you mean to say this, but all I really get out of your posts is that it's okay to not have good works. We're all painfully aware of how sin is always lurking, waiting to pounce and make us do something that we don't want to do. Contrary to your experience, I meet few Christians who can't acknowledge this fact. What I meet are plenty of Christians who use this fact to rationalize not having a lifestyle of good works operating in their lives in addition to their failed battles with sin.

We Protestants seem to interpret Jesus' teaching about the inside and the outside of the cup as, "well, since Jesus said it's wrong to have the external righteousness of the Pharisees it's okay to have no righteousness at all", and forgetting that he said that we are to have the righteousness that comes from a cup that is clean on the inside, because that would then make the outside of the cup clean (Matthew 23:26 NASB). But as it is, Protestant Christians seem to be content with unclean cups in and out as if that's the answer to Jesus' disdain for the righteousness of the Pharisees.