Faith without works........is Faith.

[childeye]

if I choose God over self, humbling myself to serve that man, that's exactly what I'm doing, refusing to act on vanity (pride). What am I missing?

The problem for me with this statement is that vanity is also false humility not just pride. Or perhaps false humility is a form of pride. At any rate, a true humility would be, when we would be truly thankful for God correcting our errant reasoning. To do that, we would have to realize that we would be wicked without Him. Only He can show us that. Pride is a blindness, therefore pride goeth before a fall, you don't see it coming.

 

[dadof10]

The mind of Christ acts apart from our choice. As scripture says, I do as I have learned of my Father. John 8:29. As far as I know, Christ can't contemplate a choice contrary to his Father with any viable consideration.

Morally speaking, Christ lives in us. He is our wisdom and our righteousness. His Spirit is greater than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4. Are you suggesting that Christ lives in us only as we decide he does?

Of course. We can reject Him and His righteousness. Scripture and everyday life are filled with examples of this. To say that we don't reject Christ and commit sin is to deny reality.

 

[dadof10]

Perhaps I should say this. 1 Jon 4, 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. Where is the choice here? Most anything can be construed as a decision. But God giving me His Spirit is hard to see as my decision.

I'm at work now and I don't have a Bible that's easily copied and pasted. Yes, I have no choice as to Christ GIVING ME HIS SPIRIT, but I do have a choice whether I ACCEPT it or not.

 

[childeye]

Of course. We can reject Him and His righteousness. Scripture and everyday life are filled with examples of this. To say that we don't reject Christ and commit sin is to deny reality.

Sorry, but I'm having a hard time believing that. So you know that contrary to Christ's Spirit we hurt others, right? So when exactly do you testify that you want to hurt others?

 

[dadof10]

Sorry, but I'm having a hard time believing that. So you know that contrary to Christ's Spirit we hurt others, right? So when exactly do you testify that you want to hurt others?

I don't want to, I SIN. Don't you?

 

[childeye]

I don't want to, I SIN. Don't you?

Yes, I sin also, but not willingly. So why do you imply it's a voluntary (freewill) decision, when in fact you don't want to?

 

[dadof10]

Yes, I sin also, but not willingly. So why do you imply it's a voluntary (freewill) decision, when in fact you don't want to?

You're not gonna tell me "the devil made me do it", are you? Your "sin nature" actually doing it, or some such variation?

 

[smaller]

You're not gonna tell me "the devil made me do it", are you? Your "sin nature" actually doing it, or some such variation?

Some believers are taught, very falsely by religious authorities, that only an external sin is sin. And even these same will "incant" in their services, "we have sinned in THOUGHT, word and deed." Even while they simultaneously claim that only the "external sin" is really " a sin. "

Jesus did teach us that evil comes from within in the form of evil thought and that it defiles us: Matt. 15:19-20 Mark 7:21-23

So, yes. Evil thought IS a sin and it is this sin that perpetually defiles us regardless of how much nice religious pastes we prefer to apply to our exteriors. Paul was also very clear about having evil present with him. Romans 7:21. So Paul also bowed to the facts that Jesus taught us. And Paul elaborates on the principles of "how and why" this happens in many places in his writings.

Sin arrives first internally, by the law coming to our minds, which indwelling sin takes automatic internal resistance to in the form of evil thoughts, as noted in Romans 7:13. This is also best termed as "temptation" thoughts. And we should all know well enough who temptations come from. The tempter. So you can portray this as a phony Flip Wilson axiom OR you can see it more accurately as something THE DEVIL does, and not something the "devil makes us" do. No, the DEVIL does this.

John the Apostle also intimately links every sin to the DEVIL in 1 John 3:8.

Jesus also tells us that where the Word is sown, Satan enters the hearts of man to STEAL the Word, which is A SIN of the DEVIL in man, yet not of the man. (Mark 4:15 and ALL the other "seed" parables.)

Paul also tells us that it is the 'god of this world' who blinds the minds of unbelievers. 2 Cor. 4:4. And that it is the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience (SATAN, the slave holder and controller of the unbelievers), under which we all walked prior to belief: Eph. 2:2 And also that the people of Israel (and gentiles) are likewise blinded. Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32 and 2 Cor. 3:14.

And yes, it DOES take "faith" in what these teachings of fact from scriptures tell us to BELIEVE, these are real matters, because all of it transpires, unseen for the most part, unless and until it is exposed on the outside, in unbelief statements from the persons lips.

 

[dadof10]

Some believers are taught, very falsely by religious authorities, that only an external sin is sin. And even these same will "incant" in their services, "we have sinned in THOUGHT, word and deed." Even while they simultaneously claim that only the "external sin" is really " a sin. ".

Not what I believe. Your premise is wrong.

 

[AmbassadorofChrist]

The issue is what "works" is Paul talking about that salvation does not require.

2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The "work" that we are to do obviously requires us to study. This throws out so much of what todays christendom refers to as "good works".

For it is Gods will to have all men saved, and come to the knowledge of truth.(1 Tim 2:4) This is where our work lies and we will be judged on these works. We are to be builders. Starting in the foundation doctrine of Christ preached in Romans(Romans 1:11) ending with the capstone 2 Thess. The only way to be a wise master builder, is to be taught by Christ through the wise master builder that Christ has appointed to be the apostle of the Gentiles.

 

[childeye]

You're not gonna tell me "the devil made me do it", are you? Your "sin nature" actually doing it, or some such variation?

Let's be forthright with one another shall we? This is the question I asked, which you have not answered. So why do you imply it's a voluntary (freewill) decision, when in fact you don't want to? If you recall, this is in reference to your first claim that you don't want to hurt people. I think you are smart enough to see the humbling fact that the devil is able to deceive us and scripture is clear on this. Why not just admit it? 1 John 3:8. Romans 7:11. 2 Timothy 3:13. John 3:8. Titus 3:3.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But, the person who has "new nature that does righteous things", who is legally justified, can lose salvation, right? So, unless he can also lose legal justification, there are legally justified souls in Hell.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic here, so bear with me.

I believe that one can abandon faith and hope in the forgiveness of God, thereby losing the justification they had through that forgiveness of sins and once again being subject to the wrath of God (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB).

Losing ones' justification happens first before one loses their salvation. It is because one loses their justification that they lose the hope of their salvation. So, 'no', there are no legally justified (that is, forgiven) souls in hell. They lost, or never had, that justification. That is why they are there. Their lack of works being the evidence of the absence of that forgiveness/justification, not the reason for it.

People who appreciate and cling to God's forgiveness are changed people. Not perfect people, but people growing up into the full stature of Christ. That change being the evidence of that forgiveness, not the source of it (Luke 7:46-50 NASB).

I have been feeling worn out this week, probably from a virus, and so I haven't been on line much. But I hope to finish visiting your posts now that I'm feeling better.

 

[Seabass]

2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The "work" that we are to do obviously requires us to study. This throws out so much of what todays christendom refers to as "good works".

For it is Gods will to have all men saved, and come to the knowledge of truth.(1 Tim 2:4) This is where our work lies and we will be judged on these works. We are to be builders. Starting in the foundation doctrine of Christ preached in Romans(Romans 1:11) ending with the capstone 2 Thess. The only way to be a wise master builder, is to be taught by Christ through the wise master builder that Christ has appointed to be the apostle of the Gentiles.

Yes, studying would be a work and obedience to what one learns from his/her studying, Heb 5:9.

 

[dadof10]

This is the question I asked, which you have not answered. So why do you imply it's a voluntary (freewill) decision, when in fact you don't want to? If you recall, this is in reference to your first claim that you don't want to hurt people.

I did answer. It's because I'm a sinner and I choose self over God. I don't think you're getting this. If I walk by someone in need, it is not my subjective feelings of "empathy" that drive me to help. This may sound cold, but I am not even empathetic most of the time. I run across a lot of homeless people at shelters and at my job and, outside of the ones I know and the ones who are visibly mentally ill, I find them arrogant with a sense of entitlement. That feeling doesn't stop me from helping them, though. I don't do it because I "feel" like it, I do it because I'm commanded by God to do it. When I refuse to do it, then that is choosing self over God's will, and that is sin. Take any sin. Take adultery, for example. If a woman hits on me and wants me to commit adultery with her, I have a choice. She could be a very beautiful woman and I would get much satisfaction from cheating on my wife (choosing self). Satan would surely be tempting me to do it, as you point out below, but God is also working through my conscience (choosing God). When the time comes to make a decision, it is not Satan or God making the voluntary, freewill decision, it is ME, otherwise IT IS NOT MY SIN.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1Jn1:8)

I hope this is clear enough.

I think you are smart enough to see the humbling fact that the devil is able to deceive us and scripture is clear on this. Why not just admit it? 1 John 3:8. Romans 7:11. 2 Timothy 3:13. John 3:8. Titus 3:3.

Up until this point in our conversation, you have not mentioned the "devil is able to deceive us". If you had, I would have agreed with you. Take the example of adultery above. He deceives me into thinking the physical pleasure will outweigh the damage to my family, that I just can't help myself. I'm only human and everyone is doing it. Heck, my wife is probably having an affair too....Go ahead, no one will find out...Divorce? Psshhh....even if she found out, she loves you too much to divorce you. Your kids? They'll be fine...Go ahead...do it...Is that enough of an admission?

Let's be forthright with one another shall we?

I guess "respectfully" is off the table. Yes, let's. Your turn. If there is no freewill decision for spiritual things how is the sin mine? Do you think that Satan is so powerful that he can't be denied? How does Satan "deceiving us" translate into us having no choice in the matter?

 

[dadof10]

I would say he was referring to a different 'kind' of righteousness--outward external righteousness vs. a righteousness of the heart and mind.

The Pharisees excelled in cleaning the outside of the cup--the outer man. Which is what I believe is meant by the 'righteousness of law' (Philippians 3:6 NASB). They cleaned the outside of the cup so as to appear righteous, which outwardly they certainly were. But inside they were greedy and covetous:

"23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (Matthew 23:23-28 NASB bold mine)

So, yes, I do see two 'kinds' of righteousness. Only the latter, the righteousness of the inside of the cup signifies the presence of justifying faith.

I missed this one earlier. You may be right. I think I'm putting too much emphasis on the word "surpasses". Certainly the Pharisees had a certain amount of righteousness, and certainly it wasn't the right kind of righteousness....

 

[dadof10]

I'm not sure I'm following your logic here, so bear with me.

I believe that one can abandon faith and hope in the forgiveness of God, thereby losing the justification they had through that forgiveness of sins and once again being subject to the wrath of God (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB).

Losing ones' justification happens first before one loses their salvation. It is because one loses their justification that they lose the hope of their salvation. So, 'no', there are no legally justified (that is, forgiven) souls in hell. They lost, or never had, that justification. That is why they are there. Their lack of works being the evidence of the absence of that forgiveness/justification, not the reason for it.

People who appreciate and cling to God's forgiveness are changed people. Not perfect people, but people growing up into the full stature of Christ. That change being the evidence of that forgiveness, not the source of it (Luke 7:46-50 NASB).

I have been feeling worn out this week, probably from a virus, and so I haven't been on line much. But I hope to finish visiting your posts now that I'm feeling better.

I was under the impression that you thought that believers couldn't lose their legal justification. I misunderstood. We are still in agreement here...

 

[OzSpen]

I did answer. It's because I'm a sinner and I choose self over God. I don't think you're getting this. If I walk by someone in need, it is not my subjective feelings of "empathy" that drive me to help. This may sound cold, but I am not even empathetic most of the time. I run across a lot of homeless people at shelters and at my job and, outside of the ones I know and the ones who are visibly mentally ill, I find them arrogant with a sense of entitlement. That feeling doesn't stop me from helping them, though. I don't do it because I "feel" like it, I do it because I'm commanded by God to do it. When I refuse to do it, then that is choosing self over God's will, and that is sin. Take any sin. Take adultery, for example. If a woman hits on me and wants me to commit adultery with her, I have a choice. She could be a very beautiful woman and I would get much satisfaction from cheating on my wife (choosing self). Satan would surely be tempting me to do it, as you point out below, but God is also working through my conscience (choosing God). When the time comes to make a decision, it is not Satan or God making the voluntary, freewill decision, it is ME, otherwise IT IS NOT MY SIN.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1Jn1:8)

I hope this is clear enough.


Up until this point in our conversation, you have not mentioned the "devil is able to deceive us". If you had, I would have agreed with you. Take the example of adultery above. He deceives me into thinking the physical pleasure will outweigh the damage to my family, that I just can't help myself. I'm only human and everyone is doing it. Heck, my wife is probably having an affair too....Go ahead, no one will find out...Divorce? Psshhh....even if she found out, she loves you too much to divorce you. Your kids? They'll be fine...Go ahead...do it...Is that enough of an admission?


I guess "respectfully" is off the table. Yes, let's. Your turn. If there is no freewill decision for spiritual things how is the sin mine? Do you think that Satan is so powerful that he can't be denied? How does Satan "deceiving us" translate into us having no choice in the matter?

Even though he had the influence of the sin nature and the devil's tempting, did Jimmy Swaggart choose to go to have sex with the prostitute? Or was there no Swaggart freewill choice in the matter?

I know that this is a prominent example that received international attention, but it could be applied to any Christian. Can any one of us choose to sin? Or does the sin nature and the devil make it impossible to resist sinning sometimes?

Oz

 

[dadof10]

Even though he had the influence of the sin nature and the devil's tempting, did Jimmy Swaggart choose to go to have sex with the prostitute? Or was there no Swaggart freewill choice in the matter?

I know that this is a prominent example that received international attention, but it could be applied to any Christian. Can any one of us choose to sin? Or does the sin nature and the devil make it impossible to resist sinning sometimes?

Oz

He chose self (sex with a prostitute) over God. That's the only way the act could have been considered sinful. If he had no freewill choice in the matter, there is no sin.

 

[OzSpen]

He chose self (sex with a prostitute) over God. That's the only way the act could have been considered sinful. If he had no freewill choice in the matter, there is no sin.

Agreed! So every sinful human action involves the human will.

Let's get back to the OP. Faith without works for salvation means faith alone for salvation. Of course there are God's grace, the proclamation of the Gospel and the drawing of the Holy Spirit involved.

 

[childeye]

I did answer. It's because I'm a sinner and I choose self over God. I don't think you're getting this.

There is no good answer as to how someone can claim they do not volunteer to hurt others while they simultaneously claim they volunteer to hurt others. That is how I know freewill is a lie in the moral purview. You're either ruled by Truth, or lies. Therefore, one must be deceived into wanting to hurt someone else, and also deceived into rejecting God.

Freewill is a masterful lie that, when believed, removes a person from considering where their thoughts are coming from, and who is controlling their emotions, all for the noble cause of taking responsibility for our actions. For example, you say you're a sinner because you choose self over God. But this is a false dichotomy. The Truth is, we can never choose self over God, since to choose God is to choose the self. Next thing you know, the devil has us convinced that all the good things are forfeited when we serve God. This is the thinking that Satan manages to place in our minds, and it all shows up in our words and actions.

If I walk by someone in need, it is not my subjective feelings of "empathy" that drive me to help. This may sound cold, but I am not even empathetic most of the time. I run across a lot of homeless people at shelters and at my job and, outside of the ones I know and the ones who are visibly mentally ill, I find them arrogant with a sense of entitlement.

Empathy is not subjective by definition. When we experience empathy, we feel others as if we were them. Satan perverts empathy by finding reasons not to have to care. He makes Empathy a burden so that we don't want to feel it. Again, Satan is deceiving you into thinking these people are arrogant with a sense of entitlement. Satan probably is telling them that this is what you think of them at the same time, hence it is self-fulfilling. They probably go talk about you, saying you're there not because you care about them, but to score points with God. Misery upon misery, and sin upon sin.

That feeling doesn't stop me from helping them, though. I don't do it because I "feel" like it, I do it because I'm commanded by God to do it. When I refuse to do it, then that is choosing self over God's will, and that is sin.

But this is righteousness by works. That's what freewill actually is. It's works based, not faith based. You can't choose self over God without first blindly accepting the false premise, that serving God is not serving your best interests. You need to see through Satan's lies. How can we claim we have a freewill when Satan plays us like a concert violinist? He orchestrates all sin.

Take any sin. Take adultery, for example. If a woman hits on me and wants me to commit adultery with her, I have a choice.

The choice is only present because Satan puts it there. It has nothing to do with your will. Satan has you conflating choice/option with choice/decision. That's why freewill in the moral purview is an equivocation.

She could be a very beautiful woman and I would get much satisfaction from cheating on my wife (choosing self). Satan would surely be tempting me to do it, as you point out below, but God is also working through my conscience (choosing God). When the time comes to make a decision, it is not Satan or God making the voluntary, freewill decision, it is ME, otherwise IT IS NOT MY SIN.

First off, this fictitious woman is being moved by Satan. She doesn't see it, for she thinks this is love, and you're hot. Once your marriage is wrecked, her desire for you will suddenly vanish, and so will she. However, if we see this for what it is, the devil playing us, there can be no temptation. You're so worried about YOUR SIN, as if that's what matters. This is why I detest freewill theology. Freewill is a foundational lie that exists for the purpose of blame and subterfuge, when in fact all sin happens because people are deceived into doing it. But Noooo.... we can't blame the devil, and forgive others and ourselves with a pure heart. We need to beat ourselves for being stupid, so that the smartness will come.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1Jn1:8)

This just means we admit we have sin, not that we volunteer for it. We're born into sin through the first Adam. And we're born into righteousness through the second Adam. Romans 5:19.

Up until this point in our conversation, you have not mentioned the "devil is able to deceive us". If you had, I would have agreed with you. Take the example of adultery above. He deceives me into thinking the physical pleasure will outweigh the damage to my family, that I just can't help myself. I'm only human and everyone is doing it. Heck, my wife is probably having an affair too....Go ahead, no one will find out...Divorce? Psshhh....even if she found out, she loves you too much to divorce you. Your kids? They'll be fine...Go ahead...do it...Is that enough of an admission?

Well said. Indeed there are two spiritual powers above us. One rules through deception and one rules through Truth.

I guess "respectfully" is off the table. Yes, let's. Your turn. If there is no freewill decision for spiritual things how is the sin mine? Do you think that Satan is so powerful that he can't be denied? How does Satan "deceiving us" translate into us having no choice in the matter?

Actually, I do respect you, even as I am candid with you. Sure, I sometimes say "respectfully", so as to pre-empt any thoughts that I'm speaking out of arrogance. If by chance I come across as arrogant, then my credibility with you will be compromised.
If there is no freewill decision for spiritual things how is the sin mine? Sin is a direction away and in separation from God. It is therefore both a spiritual condition of corruption, and also an action that proceeds out of that spiritual condition. One need not have freewill to have sin, they just need a will born in corruption. But there is no blame for sin that happens because of blindness. John 9:41. Matthew 7:1-2. Romans 2:1.

Do you think that Satan is so powerful that he can't be denied? To me, you're asking me if Satan is more cunning than we are. Yes, at first he is, particularly if we believe we have freewill. We don't see him working in us, even as we blame others for the same sin we all have. But the renewing of the mind through the Holy Spirit that testifies to Christ, gives us power over him. We need the Truth to set us free from the lies that hold us captive. John 8:32.

How does Satan "deceiving us" translate into us having no choice in the matter? First off, we didn't choose to be deceived. We don't invite the devil into our minds to deceive us, as if that's plausible. Secondly, we are using terms here that are subjective. The term 'will' means the ability to reason, to choose and to desire. The term free will means we do these things free from the constraint of fate or divines force. So in the moral purview we do choose, but not freely. Our choices are driven by either Truth we see, or lies we don't see, or lies we see as true. Matthew 6:22-24.